# Dominion Strategy Forum

• May 26, 2020, 03:16:15 am
• Welcome, Guest

### News:

DominionStrategy Wiki

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All

### AuthorTopic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 38562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### enfynet

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1687
• Respect: +1159
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2015, 03:39:02 pm »
0

1. The "Feast locks in on the card gained" was a thought exercise based on what is being "locked in." Nothing more.

TR locks in on the played action. In BoM's case it is: TR-BoM(as CardX) meaning the next time you play it, you get BoM(as CardX) which is why there is confusion about which tokens you get.

It just seems counter-intuitive that you lose the BoM token on Throning. It can still lock in as that action card (i.e. BoM(as Feast)) because the action you chose was BoM(as Feast) to play twice.

If you Throne BoM as Feast, you get BoM(as Feast) + BoM(as Feast)

If your BoM has the +1 Action token, and you play it as Feast, you get BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast)

If you Throne your BoM(+1 Action) as Feast, why wouldn't it become BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) + BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) ?

This does not violate what Throne does, or what Band does.

I don't see what this has to do with TR-Feast locking in on gaining the same card. BoM literally becomes the copied card (well, "literally" in the context of the game), so it has to be the same on the second play off of TR. It's the only card in the game that works that way. Throne Room doesn't double the effect of playing a card once, it just plays the card twice.

As for this interpretation of the TR-BoM w/ tokens issue, I think it's feasible, but I still don't think it makes the most sense. As I understand the wording on BoM, it sounds like you never actually "play" BoM. You just play the card it's copying. That interpretation is kind of unfortunate in that it would mean putting tokens on BoM is completely worthless (maybe barring a few edge cases, but I don't actually think so), but I also think it makes the most sense. There are a handful of other interpretations that I think could be justified (get the tokens on both piles twice, get the tokens on both piles once, get the tokens on BoM twice, and get the tokens on the copied pile twice could all potentially make sense depending on the precise meaning of the wording on BoM, I think), but I just don't understand the rationale behind getting the BoM tokens once and the copied pile's tokens twice.

For clarity (if anyone wants it), here are the reasons I think those 4 interpretations could be justified:

Tokens on both piles twice: BoM is a card from the BoM pile and an honorary card from the copied pile. Therefore, it gets both tokens on both plays.

Tokens on both piles once: It is BoM on the first play, becomes the copied card halfway through resolving it, and is the copied card on the second play.

Tokens on BoM twice: BoM, as a physical card, is from the BoM pile, so it only gets those tokens.

Tokens on copied pile twice: BoM, for all intents and purposes, becomes the copied card the instant you play it. It is no longer BoM at this point, so it only gets the tokens on the copied pile.
We I did type it as "playing the card twice" instead of "doubling the card" so I'm not sure if that was agreement or misunderstand.

I think it's counter-intuitive to think that BoM is only BoM the first time you play it. It's either never BoM, or it is BoM(as CardX) both times. This doesn't matter for Throne normally, but with tokens caring about piles, I don't see how it can pretend it doesn't exist on the second play.

We know TR-BoM "locks" in on the card.

TR-BoM(as CardX) = BoM(as CardX) + BoM(as CardX) <> BoM(as CardX) + CardX
[These effects are the same, but they are different concepts]

I'm saying, that intuitively, you should get the BoM tokens both times. The BoM is played twice, but it is played both times as BoM(as CardX). If that is not the case, then BoM is never played, and never gets bonuses from tokens.

I don't see how it can work only once.

Well, I still don't understand what this has to do with TR-Feast, but I guess I'll just move past that. In the instance where I said you should only get the BoM tokens once, that was under the interpretation that BoM is BoM until you finish resolving the "Play this as if..." sentence. Therefore, it's no longer BoM for the second play. By that interpretation, you only get the BoM tokens once.

For the card you copy with BoM, either you should both get the token bonus and count it for Conspirator, or not get the token bonus and not count it for Conspirator. I am leaning towards getting the token bonus and counting the card. If Conspirator didn't count it then maybe there's some window of things a card does that's getting skipped and that could break something.

I like this ruling. Sort of like the way TR-Action counts as playing 3 actions for Conspirator, BoM copying an action could count as 2.
I still don't understand how "it's no longer BoM for the second play." We know Throne locks in, based on Feast interaction. We can't have Throne lock in on ONLY the second half of Band's instructions. "This is that card until it leaves play."

Therefore, TR-BoM with tokens will either play BoM(as CardX) twice, or will play CardX twice. How can it play BoM(as CardX) once and CardX once? That is not what Throne does. "Play it twice."

So I think the only 3 possibilities are:

BoM token twice. (Unlikely)

CardX token twice. (More likely)

BoM and CardX tokens twice. (Most likely)

Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

#### Jeebus

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1828
• Respect: +1251
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2015, 03:44:53 pm »
0

I'm fine with this interpretation, but it's certainly not entirely unambiguous. If a Throned BoM gives you the BoM tokens once and the copied card's tokens twice then that definitely seems to imply that two separate actions are played the first time. If not, then the tokens' effects seem to be hanging in limbo at some arbitrary point in the card's resolution. By the ruling on the Urchin question, it seems that all tokens resolve before anything else. However, BoM seems to have two possible interpretations: either you play it as BoM and it becomes another card after the first sentence, or it instantly becomes the other card and you effectively never play BoM. By the first interpretation, it seems that Throning it should give you the tokens from each pile once; by the second interpretation, it seems that Throning it should just give you the tokens on the copied pile twice, rendering tokens on BoM entirely ineffective. Donald's ruling of "BoM tokens once, copied tokens twice" really seems to imply that playing BoM should count as playing two actions, as both tokens are triggered. Obviously Donald's word is final and I'm fine with that, but I definitely think this is a contradiction.

Yes, that's what I was saying back in the preview thread. I was going by the previous rulings that (1) BoM is never played as BoM, only one card is played, the one you chose, and (2) you get the token bonuses from each pile. It didn't seem very consistent. As I was saying there, the only way it could make sense would be that the tokens looked at what pile the card was "from", and that BoM-as-x effectively was both "from" the BoM pile and the x pile.

But with the ruling that the tokens activate before anything else (even before other when-play effects), we could view them as activating before-play (or "when you would play card"). That's the same way we had been viewing BoM, since it's the only way it could let you choose a card before you actually play it (which was necessary given the ruling that you don't play BoM, just the chosen card). That would explain how the tokens from both piles give you bonuses, and it would also fit with the ruling that TR-BoM only give you the bonus from BoM once, but from "pile x" twice (given the special case ruling on TR-BoM).

So given the mentioned rulings, it's actually unambiguous. The tokens somehow activate before when-play effects, but that doesn't in itself mean that both BoM and the chosen card were played. In fact it can't mean that, given the mentioned rulings. So that also means Champion can only trigger once.

Anyway, it sounds like Donald might change several previous rulings now...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 03:46:12 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2015, 03:48:45 pm »
0

But with the ruling that the tokens activate before anything else (even before other when-play effects), we could view them as activating before-play (or "when you would play card"). That's the same way we had been viewing BoM, since it's the only way it could let you choose a card before you actually play it (which was necessary given the ruling that you don't play BoM, just the chosen card). That would explain how the tokens from both piles give you bonuses, and it would also fit with the ruling that TR-BoM only give you the bonus from BoM once, but from "pile x" twice (given the special case ruling on TR-BoM).
The tokens say "when you play" though. It seems easily most sensible for them to trigger "when play" but ahead of non-first "when play" things.

Anyway, it sounds like Donald might change several previous rulings now...
Do you have a handy list of rulings you expect changed?
Logged

#### swedenman

• Young Witch
• Offline
• Posts: 148
• Respect: +118
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2015, 03:57:22 pm »
+3

I still don't understand how "it's no longer BoM for the second play." We know Throne locks in, based on Feast interaction. We can't have Throne lock in on ONLY the second half of Band's instructions. "This is that card until it leaves play."

I think you answered your own question. Let's say I play BoM, and I choose for it to emulate Scout, why not. "This is that card until it leaves play" is written on BoM, so I don't think there's any question that that particular BoM is now indistinct from a literal Scout card. They are both counted as Scout for the purpose of Horn of Plenty, they both cost \$4, etc. Throne Room tells you to play a card from your hand twice. You play a BoM from your hand, and by the time it finishes resolving the first time it has become the exact same thing as a Scout card. You go to play that card again, and lo and behold, it's a Scout now. Throne Room is maybe a little confused because it's used to playing the same Action twice in a row, but it does its job and plays that Scout card again regardless.

I see what you're confused about. Playing the card twice could imply you repeat the "Play this as if..." clause. But for all intents and purposes the BoM card doesn't even say that the second time it's played; its text has been replaced with Scout's text.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:01:16 pm by swedenman »
Logged

#### Jeebus

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1828
• Respect: +1251
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2015, 04:04:03 pm »
0

But with the ruling that the tokens activate before anything else (even before other when-play effects), we could view them as activating before-play (or "when you would play card"). That's the same way we had been viewing BoM, since it's the only way it could let you choose a card before you actually play it (which was necessary given the ruling that you don't play BoM, just the chosen card). That would explain how the tokens from both piles give you bonuses, and it would also fit with the ruling that TR-BoM only give you the bonus from BoM once, but from "pile x" twice (given the special case ruling on TR-BoM).
The tokens say "when you play" though. It seems easily most sensible for them to trigger "when play" but ahead of non-first "when play" things.

Right. It would be a way to make sense of all the expected results, but like Nomad Camp and BoM (maybe), it wouldn't strictly match the rules on the cards/events.
The rulebook says, "When the player whose token it is plays a card from that pile, that player first gets the bonus." You could interpret that "first" as meaning "before he plays the card".

If you change it so that BoM is actually played in addition to the card you choose, then it would mean that you play the BoM (put it in play), then you choose a card, and then play the BoM as that card. So you're playing it from play. That will actually work of course. Champion will kick in twice, Conspirator will count two Actions played.
But it makes it even more difficult to see how the special case ruling of TR-BoM works. Now the BoM was actually played as itself first, so if TR locks in anything, it would seem to be BoM. Not until we start resolving the BoM does it change, and only after we make a choice. By that time TR must have finished locking in the card?

Do you have a handy list of rulings you expect changed?

Looking at it, I was wrong! It was only one ruling, that BoM isn't played as itself first. Sorry.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:05:12 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

#### werothegreat

• Offline
• Posts: 8171
• Let me tell you a secret...
• Respect: +9578
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2015, 04:09:26 pm »
0

I disagree.

Band of Misfits says "play this as..."  It does not say "when you play this, turn this into..."  So you never play BoM, you play whatever card it emulates.

HOWEVER vanilla bonus tokens say "ah ah ah, do what we tell you before anything else."

You try to play BoM.

Almost before it hits the table, tokens on the BoM pile do something, just before BoM turns into another card.  You now played that other card, and get its token effects.

I still only played one card.  Conspirator saw me trying to play BoM, it saw the token effect, but BoM was never actually played.  I played another thing.  Conspirator sees only 1 Action has been played.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2015, 04:28:24 pm »
0

If you change it so that BoM is actually played in addition to the card you choose, then it would mean that you play the BoM (put it in play), then you choose a card, and then play the BoM as that card. So you're playing it from play. That will actually work of course. Champion will kick in twice, Conspirator will count two Actions played.
But it makes it even more difficult to see how the special case ruling of TR-BoM works. Now the BoM was actually played as itself first, so if TR locks in anything, it would seem to be BoM. Not until we start resolving the BoM does it change, and only after we make a choice. By that time TR must have finished locking in the card?
There's no special-case for Throne-BoM, there's a special-case for Throne-BoM-Feast.

Throne-BoM, the second time we try to play the card, it's not BoM any more. You can say, "Wait how does Throne Room work exactly;" do we buffer the card so we can repeat it later, or do we look at the card both times. We look at the card. This doesn't come up except here, so you can think of it as a special-case, but I do not.

Throne-BoM-Feast, the second time we try to play the card, it's BoM again, because it stopped being Feast when it hit the trash, and whatever you pick for it, it immediately stops being, since it's not in play. The idea was that no-one was ever guessing that, so it should just lock in, which is how I think everyone would play it.
Logged

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2015, 04:30:01 pm »
0

Band of Misfits says "play this as..."  It does not say "when you play this, turn this into..."  So you never play BoM, you play whatever card it emulates.
"I play Band of Misfits as..." sure sounds like I played a Band of Misfits in there somewhere. I played it, as something.

I mean I think, ask anyone, did you play Band of Misfits, they will say yes. They played Band of Misfits. They had one action and used it to play Band of Misfits.
Logged

#### werothegreat

• Offline
• Posts: 8171
• Let me tell you a secret...
• Respect: +9578
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2015, 04:30:49 pm »
0

Band of Misfits says "play this as..."  It does not say "when you play this, turn this into..."  So you never play BoM, you play whatever card it emulates.
"I play Band of Misfits as..." sure sounds like I played a Band of Misfits in there somewhere. I played it, as something.

I mean I think, ask anyone, did you play Band of Misfits, they will say yes. They played Band of Misfits. They had one action and used it to play Band of Misfits.

Well, fine, but you're still only playing one card.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

#### Jeebus

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1828
• Respect: +1251
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2015, 04:59:53 pm »
0

If you change it so that BoM is actually played in addition to the card you choose, then it would mean that you play the BoM (put it in play), then you choose a card, and then play the BoM as that card. So you're playing it from play. That will actually work of course. Champion will kick in twice, Conspirator will count two Actions played.
But it makes it even more difficult to see how the special case ruling of TR-BoM works. Now the BoM was actually played as itself first, so if TR locks in anything, it would seem to be BoM. Not until we start resolving the BoM does it change, and only after we make a choice. By that time TR must have finished locking in the card?
There's no special-case for Throne-BoM, there's a special-case for Throne-BoM-Feast.

Throne-BoM, the second time we try to play the card, it's not BoM any more. You can say, "Wait how does Throne Room work exactly;" do we buffer the card so we can repeat it later, or do we look at the card both times. We look at the card. This doesn't come up except here, so you can think of it as a special-case, but I do not.

Throne-BoM-Feast, the second time we try to play the card, it's BoM again, because it stopped being Feast when it hit the trash, and whatever you pick for it, it immediately stops being, since it's not in play. The idea was that no-one was ever guessing that, so it should just lock in, which is how I think everyone would play it.

Okay, I thought the lock-in happened just as you're playing the card, because at that time it's actually the card you picked (with BoM), it's not BoM anymore (per the previous ruling of "you never played a BoM"). So that's when TR sees what you're actually playing, and it would play that card again (for instance "Workshop" or "Feast"), even though the card is in trashed being named "BoM".

But you're saying TR looks at the card after you've already played it. That makes the TR-BoM-Feast special-case particularly crazy, but so be it.

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2015, 05:03:12 pm »
0

Well, fine, but you're still only playing one card.
I see what you mean; I mean, that's where the BoM-Conspirator ruling came from.
Logged

#### enfynet

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1687
• Respect: +1159
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2015, 05:03:46 pm »
0

So, TR and BoM both say "choose a card." And we agree that the card BoM chose is played twice. Does Throne attempt to play BoM again, but fails because BoM chose to be another card? This would allow TR-BoM(Feast) to work and matched the "BoM only played the first time.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2015, 05:04:48 pm »
0

Okay, I thought the lock-in happened just as you're playing the card, because at that time it's actually the card you picked (with BoM), it's not BoM anymore (per the previous ruling of "you never played a BoM"). So that's when TR sees what you're actually playing, and it would play that card again (for instance "Workshop" or "Feast"), even though the card is in trashed being named "BoM".

But you're saying TR looks at the card after you've already played it. That makes the TR-BoM-Feast special-case particularly crazy, but so be it.
Well I am open to suggestions/arguments. I don't want to mess up Throne-BoM or BoM-Feast to better handle the drastically rarer Throne-BoM-Feast. And there's a rulebook to agree with.
Logged

#### Donald X.

• Board Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 5772
• Respect: +23312
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 05:06:44 pm »
0

So, TR and BoM both say "choose a card." And we agree that the card BoM chose is played twice. Does Throne attempt to play BoM again, but fails because BoM chose to be another card? This would allow TR-BoM(Feast) to work and matched the "BoM only played the first time.
No, Throne plays the card again, noting that somehow this time it's no longer BoM.
Logged

#### enfynet

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1687
• Respect: +1159
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 05:07:23 pm »
0

I think we're still trying to determine how the BoM tokens only apply on the first play. Previous rulings just help give insight.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

#### werothegreat

• Offline
• Posts: 8171
• Let me tell you a secret...
• Respect: +9578
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 05:10:13 pm »
0

Okay, I thought the lock-in happened just as you're playing the card, because at that time it's actually the card you picked (with BoM), it's not BoM anymore (per the previous ruling of "you never played a BoM"). So that's when TR sees what you're actually playing, and it would play that card again (for instance "Workshop" or "Feast"), even though the card is in trashed being named "BoM".

But you're saying TR looks at the card after you've already played it. That makes the TR-BoM-Feast special-case particularly crazy, but so be it.
Well I am open to suggestions/arguments. I don't want to mess up Throne-BoM or BoM-Feast to better handle the drastically rarer Throne-BoM-Feast. And there's a rulebook to agree with.

TR-Feast works because TR looks at Feast and says "Okay, we're doing this twice."

TR-BoM entails TR looking at BoM and saying "Okay, we're... wait, the text changed!  Guess we're doing that twice, instead."

TR-BoM_as_Feast should work, I think, like this: TR looks at BoM and says "Okay, we're... wait, the text changed!  Guess we're doing that twice."  And doesn't care that BoM is something different once it's trashed.

Procession cares that BoM is something different when it gains because it checks what's in the trash as a separate thing from it's doubling and trashing.

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 05:12:13 pm by werothegreat »
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

#### GendoIkari

• Offline
• Posts: 8641
• Respect: +9466
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 05:15:34 pm »
0

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

Woah. I could see this going either way. What if it's emulating Feast, does that matter?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

#### pacovf

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3437
• Multiediting poster
• Respect: +3774
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2015, 05:16:25 pm »
0

If I tried to shoehorn the current way Conspirator and tokens work with BoM, I would be saying that the token on the BoM pile doesn't know that you aren't going to play BoM before you play actually "play" it and transforms into whatever card you are actually going to play. So it gives the bonus despite you never playing the BoM.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

#### werothegreat

• Offline
• Posts: 8171
• Let me tell you a secret...
• Respect: +9578
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2015, 05:20:30 pm »
0

If I tried to shoehorn the current way Conspirator and tokens work with BoM, I would be saying that the token on the BoM pile doesn't know that you aren't going to play BoM before you play actually "play" it and transforms into whatever card you are actually going to play. So it gives the bonus despite you never playing the BoM.

Sort of.  You play BoM.  So you get its tokens.  But you're playing it as something else.  So you get those tokens, too.

You still only played one card.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

#### pacovf

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3437
• Multiediting poster
• Respect: +3774
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2015, 05:25:52 pm »
0

Right. That was what I was trying to come up with, a consistent explanation that would have Conspirator count BoM as one card, but TR-BoM give you 1 time BoM's token bonus and 2 times the one on the card copied. That's what the original ruling given was? Or am I very confused?
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

#### werothegreat

• Offline
• Posts: 8171
• Let me tell you a secret...
• Respect: +9578
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2015, 05:29:10 pm »
0

Right. That was what I was trying to come up with, a consistent explanation that would have Conspirator count BoM as one card, but TR-BoM give you 1 time BoM's token bonus and 2 times the one on the card copied. That's what the original ruling given was? Or am I very confused?

That's right.  Because the second time, you're not playing a BoM.  You're playing the emulated card.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

#### Jeebus

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1828
• Respect: +1251
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2015, 06:04:46 pm »
+1

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

#### Beyond Awesome

• Global Moderator
• Offline
• Posts: 2941
• Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
• Respect: +2449
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2015, 06:35:37 pm »
0

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.
Logged

#### Jeebus

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1828
• Respect: +1251
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2015, 06:46:33 pm »
+4

Okay, I thought the lock-in happened just as you're playing the card, because at that time it's actually the card you picked (with BoM), it's not BoM anymore (per the previous ruling of "you never played a BoM"). So that's when TR sees what you're actually playing, and it would play that card again (for instance "Workshop" or "Feast"), even though the card is in trashed being named "BoM".

But you're saying TR looks at the card after you've already played it. That makes the TR-BoM-Feast special-case particularly crazy, but so be it.
Well I am open to suggestions/arguments. I don't want to mess up Throne-BoM or BoM-Feast to better handle the drastically rarer Throne-BoM-Feast. And there's a rulebook to agree with.

Okay, so there are these rulings:
• TR-BoM is the same card both times. This is in the rulebook.
• BoM-Feast trashes itself and is BoM in the trash. This is in the rulebook.
• Ruling: TR-BoM-Feast is a Feast both times. This is not directly in the rulebook, but is implicit in 1.
• Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.
• Ruling: BoM gives you the token bonus of both piles.
• Ruling: TR-BoM gives you the token of BoM once, but of the other pile twice.
• The token bonuses are "first", per the rulebook, although this could mean they are before the card's abilities, at the same time as other when-plays like Urchin. The cards just say "when you play". However, ruling: The token bonuses are before other when-play abilities.

What is intuitive for most players?
1 and 2 are stated directly. Ok.
3 seems to be stated in 1.
4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
5: I don't think it's obvious that you get the token bonus from BoM. Maybe some people would think so, but it seems to contradict 4 without having to think too much about it. If I played one card, how can I get bonuses from two piles?
6: Given 5, I would think most people would assume it would work the same way both times: You get bonuses from both piles twice. But as I said I think it's more natural to think you only ever get bonuses from the other pile.
7: Most people would not think that the tokens happen before other when-plays. The "first" sounds like it means "before you resolve the card", which is the same timing as when-play abilities. And the cards also say "when you play". However, it only matters for Urchin I think, so not very important in itself.

If the token bonuses triggered before-play, and BoM also did, it would explain nicely how you get the bonuses exactly as in 5 and 6. It would also fit with all the rulings from 1 to 7.

However, regarding the tokens the cards and rulebook say "when you play", not "when you would play" or similar. We would have to claim that the "first" (which is only in the rulebook) means before you actually play the card, not only before you resolve it.

Looking more on how people would likely think it works, I would rather suggest that you change the recent rulings 5 and 6. Too bad this wasn't in the rulebook of course. The tokens could still be before other when-plays (just not before-play), although I don't think the rulebook claims this and it doesn't seem to be the intuitive reading.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 01:28:29 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

#### AJD

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3012
• Respect: +3933
##### Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2015, 06:47:05 pm »
+2

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.

The lose-track rule only refers to moving cards around, not identifying them or gaining copies of them.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All

Page created in 0.117 seconds with 21 queries.