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Jeebus

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Mission, Outpost
« on: April 24, 2015, 03:20:50 pm »
+1

It seems clear that Mission's if the previous turn wasn't yours is similar to Outpost's this can't cause you to take more than two consecutive turns.
The result of both is that you can't get the card to give you two turns in a row.

It got me thinking, why couldn't Outpost have this wording too? And the answer is that it wouldn't work the same. Since if the previous turn wasn't yours is evaluated on-play, it would give you an extra turn per Outpost you play in the same turn. Only Outpost-on-an-Outpost-turn would fail as before.

The reason it works on Mission is because it's restricted to one buy per turn.

So would there be any way to avoid all this Duration confusion, and have a "failed" Outpost (or Throne Room etc) get discarded just like a "failed" Tactician?
How about a wording like on Fool's Gold or Crossroads: If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn: Take an extra turn after this one.

But wait. Now Outpost-on-an-Outpost-turn actually works. :(
So I guess: If the previous turn wasn't yours and this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn: Take an extra turn after this one.

Could it be improved on?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:19:37 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 03:49:30 pm »
+3

So I guess: If the previous turn wasn't yours and this is the first time you played an Outlook this turn: Take an extra turn after this one.

Could it be improved on?
I don't want to do this work myself, without it being for a card, but I am optimistic that I could do better on Outpost. It's not necessary to prevent multiple Outposts in the same turn - that's just power level and you can be charged/penalized for it - it's only necessary that you can't go infinite.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 05:13:17 pm »
+1

Did you intentionally use "Outlook" to refer to a new theoretical card, or is that a typo?
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 05:25:08 pm »
0

Did you intentionally use "Outlook" to refer to a new theoretical card, or is that a typo?

Typo. Thanks.

I don't want to do this work myself, without it being for a card, but I am optimistic that I could do better on Outpost. It's not necessary to prevent multiple Outposts in the same turn - that's just power level and you can be charged/penalized for it - it's only necessary that you can't go infinite.

Ah. Then I'm pretty sure this would do nicely:

You only draw 3 cards (instead of 5) in this turn's Clean-up phase. If the previous turn wasn't yours: Take an extra turn after this one.

You could play several in a turn, or Throne them etc. It would work like Possession then, giving you several turns. But you couldn't play it (with any effect) on an Outpost, Mission or Possession turn.

eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 06:35:08 pm »
+2

You only draw 3 cards (instead of 5) in this turn's Clean-up phase. If the previous turn wasn't yours: Take an extra turn after this one.

You could play several in a turn, or Throne them etc. It would work like Possession then, giving you several turns. But you couldn't play it (with any effect) on an Outpost, Mission or Possession turn.

A potential problem is that the draw penalty is only in effect for the first Outpost turn.  How about something like this?

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 12:59:00 pm »
0

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".

What about: "While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)."

Playing Procession on Outpost would give you two turns with no penalty in any case (except losing the Outpost).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 01:00:01 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 07:07:42 pm »
0

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".

What about: "While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)."

Playing Procession on Outpost would give you two turns with no penalty in any case (except losing the Outpost).

I think it mostly amounts to the same thing, except saying "draw 2 fewer cards" meshes better with Expedition.
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 10:29:12 pm »
0

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".

What about: "While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)."

Playing Procession on Outpost would give you two turns with no penalty in any case (except losing the Outpost).

I think it mostly amounts to the same thing, except saying "draw 2 fewer cards" meshes better with Expedition.

I mean it doesn't make you draw 4 fewer cards if you play two Outposts. You can just have:

If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
---
While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5).


You don't need "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play", so in that sense it's better I think.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:31:56 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 11:53:22 pm »
0

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".

What about: "While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)."

Playing Procession on Outpost would give you two turns with no penalty in any case (except losing the Outpost).

Actually this won't work. It would just be discarded the turn you played it, because it's done "doing stuff." Regular Oupost stays in play the turn you play it because of the "only draw 3 cards during this turn's cleanup." When you discard for cleanup, it's not done doing stuff, so it stays out. A version that's "while this is in play" isn't waiting around to do something.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 02:02:08 am »
+1

Quote
Outpost 2
$5 - Action-Duration
If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.

While this is in play, draw 2 fewer cards at the end of your Clean-up phase.

It really disincentivizes playing more than one though.  You could have it not stack by saying "If at least one Outpost 2 is in play".

What about: "While this is in play in your Clean-up phase, only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)."

Playing Procession on Outpost would give you two turns with no penalty in any case (except losing the Outpost).

Actually this won't work. It would just be discarded the turn you played it, because it's done "doing stuff." Regular Oupost stays in play the turn you play it because of the "only draw 3 cards during this turn's cleanup." When you discard for cleanup, it's not done doing stuff, so it stays out. A version that's "while this is in play" isn't waiting around to do something.

By the rules, I think it is waiting around for you to "take another turn".  It's as much a future-looking instruction as the clean-up rule on regular Outpost.


@Jeebus, I think "If at least one Outpost2 is inplay" works fine.  It's not like it's wordier or harder to understand.  It's just a matter of taste.  I prefer removing the ambiguity with Outpost, but it's explained in the FAQ anyway. :P
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Donald X.

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 02:26:51 am »
+4

It's much better to discard 2 cards rather than draw 2 fewer. It's also more powerful, which is why it doesn't do that (and there wasn't time to playtest it enough and tweak it). But if you are making it anew and so have the time to playtest it and tweak it, I'd start with discarding and see how it goes.

If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one. At the start of that turn, discard 2 cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 09:31:22 am »
0

It's much better to discard 2 cards rather than draw 2 fewer. It's also more powerful, which is why it doesn't do that (and there wasn't time to playtest it enough and tweak it). But if you are making it anew and so have the time to playtest it and tweak it, I'd start with discarding and see how it goes.

If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one. At the start of that turn, discard 2 cards.

So this wording would allow multiple Outpost plays, giving multiple Outpost turns, but would not allow infinite Outpost plays.

EDIT: This also gets rid of the weirdness of unused Outposts staying out until the player-to-left's turn, since the "if" can be checked before your Clean-up.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 09:34:16 am by werothegreat »
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 12:56:36 pm »
0

EDIT: This also gets rid of the weirdness of unused Outposts staying out until the player-to-left's turn, since the "if" can be checked before your Clean-up.

Yes, that was the point in the first place.

@Jeebus, I think "If at least one Outpost2 is inplay" works fine.  It's not like it's wordier or harder to understand.  It's just a matter of taste.  I prefer removing the ambiguity with Outpost, but it's explained in the FAQ anyway. :P

Is there ambiguity with the text I proposed?
The reason I don't like your version as much, is because it doesn't have "while this is in play". It has "if" instead of "while". I guess it would work the same, but maybe there could be some timing/wording confusion with some other card... Or maybe not.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 01:02:33 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 05:10:18 pm »
0

@Jeebus, I think "If at least one Outpost2 is inplay" works fine.  It's not like it's wordier or harder to understand.  It's just a matter of taste.  I prefer removing the ambiguity with Outpost, but it's explained in the FAQ anyway. :P

Is there ambiguity with the text I proposed?
The reason I don't like your version as much, is because it doesn't have "while this is in play". It has "if" instead of "while". I guess it would work the same, but maybe there could be some timing/wording confusion with some other card... Or maybe not.

Only the ambiguity with Expedition, which exists with regular Outpost and is already clarified in the rulebook.  I think using "if" is fine though, especially since this effect only matters at a specific time (drawing during clean-up phase) rather than having a continuous effect like regular "while in play" clauses.  I would think of it more along the lines of Embargo.
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 09:56:30 am »
0

Only the ambiguity with Expedition, which exists with regular Outpost and is already clarified in the rulebook.  I think using "if" is fine though, especially since this effect only matters at a specific time (drawing during clean-up phase) rather than having a continuous effect like regular "while in play" clauses.  I would think of it more along the lines of Embargo.

You're probably right about "if".

However, there is one thing that I realized. This is very subtle, but has been brought up on these forums before regarding Embargo, Duchess and the set-up of Trade Route and Young Witch. These are rules not tied to a specific copy of a card, but they are still given on each card. By a strict ruling they each trigger once for each card. With Outpost2 referring to "Outpost2" instead of to "this", it gets the same problem. You would draw 20 fewer cards instead of 2.

Donald has said that Embargo, Duchess etc are not precisely phrased. Outpost2 would be joining that list with your version. But of course almost nobody playing Dominion will think of it, so in practice it doesn't matter.

eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2015, 12:41:03 pm »
0

What?  Why 20?  Cards in the game aren't all in play.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2015, 12:44:09 pm »
+2

What?  Why 20?  Cards in the game aren't all in play.

He's saying that the rule "if at least one Outpost 2 is in play, draw 2 fewer cards" is a rule that exist in 10 different places, so the rule would apply 10 times. I do not believe he is correct. If you interpreted it that way, then you could gain 10 Duchesses when you buy a Duchy, because there would be 10 times that the rule "you may gain a duchess" is around.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2015, 12:48:23 pm »
0

Ah, OK.  Yeah, it's a single rule for Embargo and Duchess, and that's how it's intended for Outpost2 as well.  You don't gain a Curse per embargo token per Embargo card either.

Aside: should this discussion be in Rules Questions? Feels more like a Fan Card thing to me.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:50:29 pm by eHalcyon »
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2015, 01:20:55 pm »
0

What?  Why 20?  Cards in the game aren't all in play.

He's saying that the rule "if at least one Outpost 2 is in play, draw 2 fewer cards" is a rule that exist in 10 different places, so the rule would apply 10 times. I do not believe he is correct. If you interpreted it that way, then you could gain 10 Duchesses when you buy a Duchy, because there would be 10 times that the rule "you may gain a duchess" is around.

Exactly. As I said, Donald has confirmed this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4651.msg206144#msg206144
Dominion does work like this, that's why each Goons in play gives you a token. So the rules in question (on Embargo, Duchess, Trade Route, Young Witch and Outpost2) are to be considered reminders of rules that strictly speaking do not belong on the cards.

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2015, 01:27:17 pm »
0

For Duchess' "In games using this", it's assumed it means "In games using this pile".
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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2015, 01:37:14 pm »
0

For Duchess' "In games using this", it's assumed it means "In games using this pile".

Sure, but that just tells you when the rule is active. The rule is still given on each card. If Ill-Gotten Gains said: "When you gain Ill-Gotten Gains, each other player gains a Curse", then there would be 10 cards triggering each time you gained an Ill-Gotten Gains. That's why it says "this" instead.

eHalcyon

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 04:28:03 pm »
0

For Duchess' "In games using this", it's assumed it means "In games using this pile".

Sure, but that just tells you when the rule is active. The rule is still given on each card. If Ill-Gotten Gains said: "When you gain Ill-Gotten Gains, each other player gains a Curse", then there would be 10 cards triggering each time you gained an Ill-Gotten Gains. That's why it says "this" instead.

And yet you don't get the opportunity to gain 10 Duchesses when you buy Duchy, or gain 10 Curses per Embargo token...
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Jeebus

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 04:33:19 pm »
0

And yet you don't get the opportunity to gain 10 Duchesses when you buy Duchy, or gain 10 Curses per Embargo token...

Right, because the card texts on those four cards are not literally accurate. I feel like I've said this a couple of times...
The same is true for cards like Nomad Camp and Band of Misfits, for other reasons, as you probably know.

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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 04:34:43 pm »
0

And yet you don't get the opportunity to gain 10 Duchesses when you buy Duchy, or gain 10 Curses per Embargo token...

Right, because the card texts on those four cards are not literally accurate. I feel like I've said this a couple of times...
The same is true for cards like Nomad Camp and Band of Misfits, for other reasons, as you probably know.

Oh, that's what you mean.  OK, sure.  But it plays the way people would expect, and the "if" version of Outpost2 would work the same way.  No problems.
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Re: Mission, Outpost
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 03:57:25 pm »
0

I'm looking at the new Outpost (which is online), and it's interesting to compare what we talked about here with the new version. There is no possibility of multiple turns, and no discarding. This is not surprising, because in this thread Donald talked about what he would do if he could design a new Outpost from scratch, while I assume he tried to change Outpost functionally as little as possible in the new version.

Online text: If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.

So in the end it's how I wrote in the first post, except that now you don't get the card penalty unless you get the extra turn. There are therefore two functional changes: Outpost never stays in play if it fails; and you don't draw 3 cards if it fails. Both make Outpost marginally stronger.
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