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Author Topic: No Smithy?  (Read 6095 times)

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juffowup

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No Smithy?
« on: April 23, 2015, 09:14:05 pm »
+2

Has there been a set before with nothing so close to a smithy variant?  I guess it's Haunted Woods or Ranger, but both don't quite feel right.  (Not complaining, just interesting)
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jsh357

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 09:22:12 pm »
0

Well, you answered your own question?

There's also Gear, and you can customize a terminal draw card with Pathfinding or Teacher.
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Flip5ide

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 09:22:44 pm »
0

Has there been a set before with nothing so close to a smithy variant?  I guess it's Haunted Woods or Ranger, but both don't quite feel right.  (Not complaining, just interesting)

Well there isn't exactly a Smithy variant in sets like Seaside, Alchemy, etc. so...
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LastFootnote

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 09:23:01 pm »
0

Cornucopia has nothing even remotely like a Smithy variant. Ditto Alchemy.
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juffowup

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 09:34:26 pm »
+1

I guess mostly what I'm thinking is that engine building is not clear and obvious like it was in the past.

In cornucopia, you could buy lots of hunting parties to know you'll have a big hand; in Alchemy it was alchemists.  In other sets, there was always a village and a big draw.  (In Seaside it was Wharf which was little-but-secretly-big draw)

Here none of the terminal draw quite seems strong enough to just start buying with villages.  If we're going the Lab Route, we can get Lost Cities (which are super strong I know) but don't quite feel like engine-glue in the same way. 

Thinking it through now, I guess the thing that's making it make more sense is noticing that Lost Cities + Gear is effectively the same a Village+Smithy, so the basic pieces are still there.
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eHalcyon

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 09:50:19 pm »
+1

Haunted Woods still fits pretty well, I think.  If you can play one every round, it's better than playing Smithy every round. 

As far as engines go, I don't think it's ever been clear and obvious, but Adventures isn't lacking for options anyway.  Storyteller is potentially huge draw, there are numerous splitter options, and the tokens do crazy things for you.
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pacovf

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 09:56:01 pm »
+2

What's wrong with Ranger?
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jaketheyak

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 10:02:22 pm »
0

Cornucopia has nothing even remotely like a Smithy variant.

I think Followers is at least remotely like a Smithy variant.

I guess mostly what I'm thinking is that engine building is not clear and obvious like it was in the past.

In cornucopia, you could buy lots of hunting parties to know you'll have a big hand; in Alchemy it was alchemists.  In other sets, there was always a village and a big draw.  (In Seaside it was Wharf which was little-but-secretly-big draw)

Here none of the terminal draw quite seems strong enough to just start buying with villages.  If we're going the Lab Route, we can get Lost Cities (which are super strong I know) but don't quite feel like engine-glue in the same way. 

Thinking it through now, I guess the thing that's making it make more sense is noticing that Lost Cities + Gear is effectively the same a Village+Smithy, so the basic pieces are still there.

So, you're really looking for a card that can consistently draw a large number of cards into your hand (when paired with a village if it's terminal).

I guess by that definition maybe Storyteller is the closest match?

Haunted Woods and Gear both defer your draw to your next turn, but if you can get to the point where you are playing one (or more) every turn you have a pretty decent engine going.

Ranger definitely draws big, but obviously lacks consistency.
Works better when throned (or Royal Carriaged).

You could also count Hireling.
It's expensive to set up, but if you can get multiples you have the very definition of consistent draw.
Ferry is a good enabler for this.

And if you're counting other non-terminals like Alchemist, you can't really ignore Lost City.

I think you also need to consider Expedition as well.
If you have a source of +buy and plenty of money you can add two extra cards to your starting hand every turn.
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eHalcyon

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 10:09:02 pm »
+1

Haunted Woods and Gear both defer your draw to your next turn, but if you can get to the point where you are playing one (or more) every turn you have a pretty decent engine going.

Gear's deferral is optional!  You can choose to set aside 2 cards, or just 1 card, or no cards at all.
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pacovf

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 10:16:42 pm »
+1

I think you also need to consider Expedition as well.
If you have a source of +buy and plenty of money you can add two extra cards to your starting hand every turn.

In the presence of Expedition, Grand Market+Peddler = 2*Caravan

...doesn't sound all that great.
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jaketheyak

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 10:29:31 pm »
0

Gear's deferral is optional!  You can choose to set aside 2 cards, or just 1 card, or no cards at all.

Oh, I completely overlooked the words "up to".
Man, that card is suddenly so much better than I thought it was.

I think you also need to consider Expedition as well.
If you have a source of +buy and plenty of money you can add two extra cards to your starting hand every turn.

In the presence of Expedition, Grand Market+Peddler = 2*Caravan

...doesn't sound all that great.

Well, it's not something that's going to be the entire basis of your strategy, but it is a way to add extra draw to your deck.

In reality, Expedition is almost certainly just going to be something you buy on those occasions when you have $3 to spend and you don't really want any of the available $3 cards.
Given how frequently this seems to occur though, I think Expedition is going to be a nice Event to have available.
Also, it pairs outrageously well with Mission if you have a source of +buy.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 09:18:14 am »
+1

I guess mostly what I'm thinking is that engine building is not clear and obvious like it was in the past.

In cornucopia, you could buy lots of hunting parties to know you'll have a big hand; in Alchemy it was alchemists.  In other sets, there was always a village and a big draw.  (In Seaside it was Wharf which was little-but-secretly-big draw)

Here none of the terminal draw quite seems strong enough to just start buying with villages.  If we're going the Lab Route, we can get Lost Cities (which are super strong I know) but don't quite feel like engine-glue in the same way. 

Thinking it through now, I guess the thing that's making it make more sense is noticing that Lost Cities + Gear is effectively the same a Village+Smithy, so the basic pieces are still there.

I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. Haunted Woods is crazy draw. It's essentially a delayed Hunting Grounds. Did you know that playing 2 Haunted Woods each turn is the same as starting each turn with three Wharves in play but you don't get the buys. Plus, you have Teacher, Pathfinding, Gear, Ranger, etc.

And, as far as expansions goes, this one seems to offer a lot of crazy engine building options.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 09:19:29 am by Beyond Awesome »
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pacovf

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 09:51:58 am »
+2

Haunted Woods is crazy draw. It's essentially a delayed Hunting Grounds. Did you know that playing 2 Haunted Woods each turn is the same as starting each turn with three Wharves in play but you don't get the buys.

I don't like any of these comparisons.

Haunted Woods is not a delayed Hunting Grounds, because it hurts your current turn and because the draw is non-terminal. That's way different from what we mean when we say that Caravan is a delayed Laboratory, or Caravan Guard a delayed Peddler.

Playing 2 Haunted Woods each turn is the same as playing 1.5 Wharves each turn, minus the buy.
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joel88s

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 10:07:23 am »
+3

In reality, Expedition is almost certainly just going to be something you buy on those occasions when you have $3 to spend and you don't really want any of the available $3 cards.
Given how frequently this seems to occur though, I think Expedition is going to be a nice Event to have available.
Also, it pairs outrageously well with Mission if you have a source of +buy.

Expedition seems like a natural Turn 3 buy if you draw CCCEE (assuming you didn't open two terminals): makes sure your opening buys don't miss the reshuffle.
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TheOthin

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 10:14:54 am »
0

In reality, Expedition is almost certainly just going to be something you buy on those occasions when you have $3 to spend and you don't really want any of the available $3 cards.
Given how frequently this seems to occur though, I think Expedition is going to be a nice Event to have available.
Also, it pairs outrageously well with Mission if you have a source of +buy.

Expedition seems like a natural Turn 3 buy if you draw CCCEE (assuming you didn't open two terminals): makes sure your opening buys don't miss the reshuffle.

But then you get one fewer early buy in exchange.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 10:25:51 am »
0

In reality, Expedition is almost certainly just going to be something you buy on those occasions when you have $3 to spend and you don't really want any of the available $3 cards.
Given how frequently this seems to occur though, I think Expedition is going to be a nice Event to have available.
Also, it pairs outrageously well with Mission if you have a source of +buy.

Expedition seems like a natural Turn 3 buy if you draw CCCEE (assuming you didn't open two terminals): makes sure your opening buys don't miss the reshuffle.

But then you get one fewer early buy in exchange.

For certain key cards, it is worth the cost.
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DG

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 11:34:46 am »
+1

Ranger is certainly from the smithy family. Ranger will be weaker than smithy in big money situations. Ranger should be strong in good decks and then be a clearly better card than smithy.
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juffowup

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2015, 10:27:35 pm »
+3

Yes, yes, yes, there's a lot of cards in Adventures that are able to give +cards. 

The thing I had in my head though is when I start a game and I see Fishing Village and I go "oooh!  I'll be able to get a very consistent engine going if there is a 'smithy' on the board..."  And none of these is quite that.  I'm sure with practice we'll learn which ones are good for engine building and which ones are less good, but right now (in my mind) they all have an asterisk as to how consistently they'll be able to draw my entire deck when combined with a good village, and in particular, whether I wouldn't rather just have a smithy in some of those cases, only in terms of deck drawing consistency when combined with a solid village.

And this is fine!  The last couple smithy variants have been pretty boring anyway.
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werothegreat

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2015, 10:52:04 pm »
+1

And this is fine!  The last couple smithy variants have been pretty boring anyway.

Don't you dare talk smack about Journeyman.

 >:(
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juffowup

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Re: No Smithy?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 12:14:53 am »
+2

Don't you dare talk smack about Journeyman.

 >:(

I wouldn't dare.

But here's a haiku I wrote:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12804.msg486706#msg486706
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