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Author Topic: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played  (Read 6120 times)

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eHalcyon

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Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« on: April 23, 2015, 08:37:46 pm »
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For this puzzle, your goal is to have the most cards gained per card played in one turn.  No Durations in play at the start of your turn, no Reserves on the Tavern mat, no Black Market, no coin tokens, max 2 Events.  You're allowed to have set up previously (e.g. with +1 Buy token on a pile already).  You must play a minimum of 1 card (so no Alms to divide by 0).  Let's make it a 4p game, and you get to count cards that others gain as well.

As an example: Play Ambassador, revealing Death Cart.  The other 3 players each gain a Death Cart and 2 Ruins, for 9 cards gained total.  Then you buy Alms to gain Death Cart and two Ruins for 12 cards gained total and only 1 played.  Score is 12/1 = 12.

I don't have a specific answer.  My best so far is 21.  My solution is below.

Ferry previously on Messenger.  Play Princess.  Messenger now costs $0 and you have 2 Buys.  First buy Messenger, choose to gain Border Village (which now costs $4).  All four players gain Border Village, choosing to gain Cache (or Death Cart).  In total, each player gains 4 cards here.  Finally, buy Alms to gain another Border Village to gain Cache/DC for another 4 cards for 21.
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liopoil

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 08:43:22 pm »
+2

I assume in a TR chain or the like every card counts?

I can improve on yours by 5 to 26 by Gaining catacombs instead of cache/death cart, revealing watchtower to trash catacombs, and gaining death cart. 5 catacombs gained along the way.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 08:57:42 pm »
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I assume in a TR chain or the like every card counts?

I can improve on yours by 5 to 26 by Gaining catacombs instead of cache/death cart, revealing watchtower to trash catacombs, and gaining death cart. 5 catacombs gained along the way.

Yes, everything played in a chain counts.

I was actually working on exactly that to improve my solution!  I've increased it to 44.

Hand is Princess, Watchtower, 3 Market Square.  Each other player has 1 Watchtower and 2 or 3 Market Squares (so, all 10 Market Squares are gone).  Ferry previously on Messenger.  Play Princess.  First buy Messenger, choosing Border Village.  All four players gain BV, gaining Catacombs, trashing it with Watchtower to gain Squire (and discarding all Market Squares to gain Golds), trashing it to gain Cultist, trashing it to reshuffle and draw back discarded Market Squares, which are discarded again (from trashed Cultist) to gain Gold.

Not counting all the Gold, each player has gained BV, Catacombs, Squire, Cultist for 16 cards total.  Active player has also gained a Messenger.  All 10 Market Squares were used twice each for 20 Golds gained between all players.  Total so far is 37.  There's still 1 buy left.

I still can't think of anything better to do with it than buying Alms... but this could gain BV to gain Catacombs, trashing it to gain Squire, trashing it to gain Cultist, trashing it to reshuffle again and draw back the 3 Market Squares, discarding them to gain 3 Gold.  So that's another 7 cards for 44 total.


Edit: Improved to 74 with a simple addition.

The above solution uses 8 kingdom cards, leaving me room for 2 more.  Previous plays of KC-Embargo could put 30 embargo tokens on the Messenger pile, allowing me to gain all 30 Curses from that 1 buy.

The kingdom is: Tournament, Watchtower, Market Square, Messenger, Border Village, Catacombs, Squire, Cultist, Embargo, King's Court, with Ferry and Alms for events.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 09:20:36 pm by eHalcyon »
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pacovf

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 09:54:39 pm »
+1

How many Silvers are there? You can gain them all at once with Treasure Hunter.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 10:14:56 pm »
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How many Silvers are there? You can gain them all at once with Treasure Hunter.

40, I think.  Not sure if you can catch up to 74 with that... hmm.

Hand is Treasure Hunter, Watchtower and 3 Market Squares.  Play Treasure Hunter, gaining 40 Silvers.  You have $1, 1 Buy.  30 Embargo tokens and -$2 token on Squire, so it's affordable.  Buy Squire (+31 cards), trash to gain Cultist, trash to draw 3 more Market Squares, discarding all 6 for 6 Gold.

Total is 77.

Edit: Made a small mistake.  This is still winning though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 10:26:15 pm by eHalcyon »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 05:46:26 am »
+3

I can get 107 (Better solutions in the next posts):

Kingdom:
Philosopher's Stone
Tunnel
Feodum
Catacombs
Death Cart
Hunting Grounds
Doctor
Loan
Ambassador
Moat

Borrow
Ferry

All the other players have Ambassadored their entire decks back to the supply, and only have 1 Ambassador and 1 Moat in their decks. You've Ambassadored your starting Estates back to the supply.
You've put your -2$ cost token on Doctor.

Hand: 5 Philosopher's Stones.
Deck: 11 Tunnels.
Discard: 11 Colonies, 11 Provinces, 11 Duchies, 29 Curses, 11 Platinums, 14 Golds, 3 Silvers, 59 Coppers, 10 Ruins, 4 Philosopher's Stones, 12 Feodums, 10 Catacombs, 9 Hunting Grounds, 9 Doctors, 9 Loans, 6 Ambassadors and 6 Moats.

Play 1 Philosopher's Stone (235 cards = $47).
Buy Borrow.
Buy Doctor, overpaying by $47 and discarding 11 Tunnels (gaining 11 Golds) (reshuffling), trashing 12 Feodums (gaining 36 Silvers), 10 Catacombs (gaining 10 Death Carts and 20 Ruins), 9 Hunting Grounds (gaining 24 Estates and 1 Duchy), and discarding 5 Tunnels (gaining 5 Golds).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 05:19:04 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 06:37:55 am »
+1

Improved to 124 (Better solution in the next post):

Kingdom:
Philosopher's Stone
Feodum
Catacombs (empty)
Death Cart
Hunting Grounds
Doctor
Ambassador
Moat
King's Court
Embargo (empty)
Young Witch

Travelling Fair
Ball

All the other players have Ambassadored their entire decks back to the supply, and only have 1 Ambassador and 1 Moat in their decks. You've Ambassadored your starting Estates back to the supply.
You've put 30 Embargo tokens on Doctor

Hand: 5 Philosopher's Stones.
Deck: 11 Colonies, 11 Provinces, 11 Duchies, 11 Platinums, 29 Golds, 3 Silvers, 59 Coppers, 9 Ruins, 4 Philosopher's Stones, 11 Feodums, 10 Catacombs, 9 Young Witches, 9 Hunting Grounds, 9 Doctors, 9 King's Courts, 6 Ambassadors and 6 Moats.

Play 1 Philosopher's Stone (217 cards = $43).
Buy Travelling Fair.
Buy Travelling Fair.
Buy Ruin.
Buy Ball, gain Feodum (putting on top of deck) and Copper.
Buy Doctor, overpaying by $31 and trashing 12 Feodums (gaining 36 Silvers), 10 Catacombs (gaining 10 Death Carts and 20 Ruins) and 9 Hunting Grounds (gaining 24 Estates and 1 Duchy). Gaining 30 Curses for the Doctor buy.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:10:01 am by Simon (DK) »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 08:08:29 am »
+3

Did a lot of changes to improve it by 1 to 125:

Kingdom:
Philosopher's Stone
Feodum
Catacombs (empty)
Death Cart
Doctor
King's Court
Embargo (empty)
Market Square
Tunnel
Cultist
Young Witch

Ferry
Borrow

You've put the -2$ cost token and 30 Embargo tokens on Doctor

Hand: 1 Philosopher's Stone, 4 Market Squares.
Deck: 11 Tunnels, 2 Cultists, 5 Market Squares.
Discard: 11 Colonies, 11 Provinces, 11 Duchies, 14 Estates, 11 Platinums, 1 Gold, 4 Silvers, 38 Coppers, 10 Ruins, 8 Philosopher's Stones, 12 Feodums, 10 Catacombs, 9 Young Witches, 9 Doctors, 9 King's Courts and 7 Cultists.

Play 1 Philosopher's Stone (194 cards = $38).
Buy Borrow.
Buy Doctor, overpaying by $38 and discarding 11 Tunnels (gaining 11 Golds) trashing 2 Cultists (discarding 9 Market Squares to get 9 Golds and reshuffling), 12 Feodums (gaining 36 Silvers), 10 Catacombs (gaining 10 Death Carts and 20 Ruins) and 3 Cultists (discarding 9 Market Squares to get 9 Golds). Gaining 30 Curses for the Doctor buy.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 05:19:35 pm by Simon (DK) »
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ephesos

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 12:44:04 am »
+1

Buy Burrower.
I don't think that's a Dominion card...
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ephesos

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 12:48:31 am »
0

Does the no Coin tokens rule extend to Coin tokens taken with Pirate Ship, or on the Trade Route mat?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 01:21:44 am »
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Does the no Coin tokens rule extend to Coin tokens taken with Pirate Ship, or on the Trade Route mat?

That wasn't my intention, but Pirate Ship would be similarly boundless so that should be ruled out.  Trade Route would be OK though.



BTW, I'm not really checking these answers at this point.  I just thought it was an interesting challenge.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 01:22:48 am by eHalcyon »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 06:24:17 am »
0

Buy Burrower.
I don't think that's a Dominion card...

Fixed. I of course meant buy Burrow :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 12:38:18 pm »
0

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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 05:21:17 pm »
0

Buy Burrower.
I don't think that's a Dominion card...

Fixed. I of course meant buy Burrow :)

Borrow*

Man. Lol. The cards are new and english isn't my main language.
It should be all fixed now.
Thanks for letting me know :)
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ephesos

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 12:08:00 am »
+1

My answer has less to do with trashing and more to do with buying.

Cards:
King's Court   (empty)
Possession   (empty)
Governor   
Vault      
Rogue      
Masquerade   
Death Cart   
Masterpiece   
Young Witch   
Peasant(w/20 cards to exchange into)      
Bane: Page(w/20 cards to exchange into)   

Events:
Travelling Fair
Ferry

Total Kingdom cards: 150
Total other cards: 278
60 Copper, 40 Silver, 30 Gold, 12 Platinum,
16 Potion, 24 Estates, 12 Duchies, 12 Provinces,
12 Colonies, 30 Curses, 30 Ruins
Grand total: 428 cards in the game, with 22 Supply piles

Left in Supply:
32 Copper, 30 Curses, 30 Ruins, 10 Death Carts, 1 Masterpiece, 40 Silver, 4 Estates
1 each in 15 other piles, 6 cards in other players' hands, no cards in trash

Setting up:
P1 gets Rogue, Gold, and Masquerade, while the others do nothing. He then proceeds to pass the Gold to P2, trash it with Rogue, and get it back with Rogue. Now P2 is down a card, the one passed to P3. Repeat until P2 has 2 cards.
Then, Masquerade the Gold to P3, and so on. Eventually, P2 and P3 have 2 cards, and P4 has 1 card.
P1 buys Gold, Potion, 1 Governor, 3 King's Courts and 3 Possessions. He proceeds to pass them out to the other players with Masquerade, receiving their remaining Copper and Estates.
P1 then buys out a lot of the remaining cards and buys Ferry, putting the -$2 token on Death Cart, resulting in the following setup.

In P1's deck:
7 King's Court, 7 Possession, 8 Governor, 9 Vault, 9 Rogue, 9 Masquerade, 9 Masterpiece, 9 Young Witch,
9 Peasant, 9 Page
40 Exchange cards, 20 Estates, 11 Duchies, 11 Provinces, 11 Colonies,
28 Copper, 29 Gold, 11 Platinum, 15 Potion
Total: 259 cards

In P2 and P3's hand:
1 King's Court, 1 Possession

In P4's hand:
1 King's Court, 1 Possession, 1 Governor

Now, setting up for the final turn:
P1 starts by playing KC/KC/Poss/Poss/Poss
P2(possessed by P1) plays KC/Poss(9 times), and plays KC/Poss normally once
P3(possessed by P2) plays KC/Poss(30 times), and plays KC/Poss normally once
P4(possessed by P3) plays Governor(+1 card)/KC/Poss(93 times), and normally once
Through the magic of shuffle luck, P1 KC chains 5 Possessions on the first hand(with cards from Governor)
Then, he plays 278 other turns, drawing 1390 cards and going through his deck ~6 times, with help from his own Governors/Vaults/Young Witch
In those 5 times, he manages to play another 35 KC/Possessions.

P2(possessed by P1) plays KC/Poss(120 times), and normally once
P3(possessed by P2) plays KC/Poss(363 times), and normally once
P4(possessed by P3) plays Governor/KC/Poss(1092 times), and normally once
P1 now has his entire deck in his hand.

The final turn:
P1 plays Vault, discarding 258 cards and getting $258.

Buying:
88 Travelling Fairs for $176, now has 89 buys
32 Copper, 10 Ruins, 30 Curses for $0
10 Death Carts(with Ferry -$2) for $20, gaining 20 Ruins
1 Masterpiece for $43, overbought by $40 for 40 Silvers
1 Page for $2
1 Peasant for $2
4 Estates for $8
1 Masquerade for $3
costing $254

149 cards gained, for a score of 149.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:09:26 am by ephesos »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 01:16:45 am »
0

I don't want to check it all, but is this the general idea?

Convoluted way to use the other players such that you draw your deck.  Play Vault for lots of money.  Maximize gains through Travelling Fair plus various standard tricks.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 07:27:48 am »
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P1 gets Rogue, Gold, and Masquerade, while the others do nothing. He then proceeds to pass the Gold to P2, trash it with Rogue, and get it back with Rogue. Now P2 is down a card, the one passed to P3. Repeat until P2 has 2 cards.
Then, Masquerade the Gold to P3, and so on. Eventually, P2 and P3 have 2 cards, and P4 has 1 card.


You can't get the other players below 5 cards with this method.
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ephesos

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 12:31:04 am »
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P1 gets Rogue, Gold, and Masquerade, while the others do nothing. He then proceeds to pass the Gold to P2, trash it with Rogue, and get it back with Rogue. Now P2 is down a card, the one passed to P3. Repeat until P2 has 2 cards.
Then, Masquerade the Gold to P3, and so on. Eventually, P2 and P3 have 2 cards, and P4 has 1 card.

You can't get the other players below 5 cards with this method.
Right, forgot that bit, but you can just trash with something other than Rogue. Pass a Masq around, have the other player use Masq to trash the Gold in their hand, pass Masq back to P1. Either that, or buy out all the King's Courts, then use the Governor trash option.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:33:44 am by ephesos »
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jomini

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Re: Most Cards Gained Per Cards Played
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2015, 10:18:52 am »
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P1 gets Rogue, Gold, and Masquerade, while the others do nothing. He then proceeds to pass the Gold to P2, trash it with Rogue, and get it back with Rogue. Now P2 is down a card, the one passed to P3. Repeat until P2 has 2 cards.
Then, Masquerade the Gold to P3, and so on. Eventually, P2 and P3 have 2 cards, and P4 has 1 card.

You can't get the other players below 5 cards with this method.
Right, forgot that bit, but you can just trash with something other than Rogue. Pass a Masq around, have the other player use Masq to trash the Gold in their hand, pass Masq back to P1. Either that, or buy out all the King's Courts, then use the Governor trash option.

I solved this a while back in another puzzle. You only need each player to own a Masq (I know the puzzle doesn't allow it, but Bm can supply the Kc and Possession if needed) to get unlimited starting hand size.
P1 Plays Kc->Possession
P2 Has 3 Possessed turns T1: Kc -> Gov -> Masq (gain Possession) -> Possession; T2: Masq (gain Kc) -> Kc -> Possession; T3-T6 Kc -> Possession; P2's actual turn Kc -> Possession

In total P2 will have 19 Possession turns of P3. Of this the first is spent acquiring Possession (one Possession turn) and the rest will be after getting Kc (54 Possession turns), and as always 3 Possession turn from P3's own turn. You will need to do something hinky with Kc/Gov to be able to play Possession after gaining it.

Basically the number of turns one player's deck can take in row scales with at least A[n] = 3 * A[n-1]

There is no upper bound on this trick.

Okay so say I just do a simple 3^n for may estimated number of consecutive turns. If n = 24 the the last deck will have 282,429,536,481 Possession turns to play. You can then spend a very small fraction of these doing something like (each step may require multiple turns): Player 3 plays Torturer until P5 has no cards in hand (everyone else has at least one card); P5 plays Masq (effectively on card moves from the hand of P1 to P4); Gov for cards (if any of P1-P2 are out of cards); Torturer (P6 now again has no cards in hand); Masq. Eventually you can feed P6 all the cards in the game except those that would end the game which are still in piles and Torturer/Masq/Gov. Torture P4 to 0 cards, play Masq (send Torturer). Now just play like 1000 turns (or whatever) of Gov until P6 draws everything.

Doing this without taking Curses is harder, but I think doable (you have an essentially infinite number of turns for setup, so we can do all sorts of tricks with Gov/Torturer altering card count.

P6 thus begins with a 1000 (or whatever) card hand.

With no Bm, this takes up just 5 Kingdom slots:
Kc, Possession, Masq, Gov, Torturer

A few refinements:

Vault is inferior to Storeroom here:
a. Storeroom comes with a +buy
b. Storeroom allows you to use Tunnel for more gains (with an empty deck, discard 11 or 12 Tunnels, gain 11/12 gold, shuffle, draw 11/12 Tunnels, discard them for cash, gain another 11/12 golds). You lose a net of $32 (8 cards from Tunnels being less numerous than exchange cards and 24 form gained golds that aren't in hand at turn start) for your big discard ... but that just means 16 fewer buys from Travelling Fair so you net at least 6 more cards gained (and I think higher as the less Copper you buy, the more cash you can use in hand to generate $ so I think that should mean you really only lose 8 buys for even better net gain)
c. Storeroom can be the Bane. (not really an issue I think)

You should swap an Exchange/Masterpiece for Embargo/Trader. Yes you lose $21 from your total cash to spend, but using Possession you can set up 100 embargo tokens on the Copper without actually permanently trashing the Embargo. This allows you, without using a single buy, to pile both Curses and Silvers. So you get back $105 ($60 from not needing to purchase +buys for curses and $45 total cost of Masterpiece) so you are ahead $83 and still have a $2 to buy at the end if needed.

I'm not totally sure if the numbers work out, but it might be worth losing the other exchanger to get more gains. For instance swapping the other Exchanger to Stonemason loses us $24 from not discarded cash. However, spending overbuying a 0 cost Stonemason by $4 can net us a large haul of cards. Right now you spend $40 on Dcarts to gain 10 Dcarts and 20 Ruins. With $0 Smason, you can spend 30$ (5x[2+4]) to gain 5 Smasons, 10 Dcarts, and 20 ruins. With 4 of the other Smasons you could overpay by $2 to gain 8 Embargoes. On net that means paying $16 for 12 cards. Total Smason allows you to gain 47 cards for $36; with opportunity cost that, I think should be $50 for 47 cards. You are currently paying $40 for 30 cards (Dcarts and Ruins) and then $38 for 17 coppers for a total of $78 for . So I think the savings are worth decreasing the value of the big discard.


So I think a more optimized solution is to:
1. Put the -$2 token/an arbitrarily large number of embargo tokens on Smason.
2. Use Kc/Possession/Masq/Torturer to setup the mother of all starting hands.
3. Play Sroom - discard all the Tunnels (gain 12 gold), draw 12 Tunnels, discard everything but Trader (gain 12 gold)
4. Overbuy five Smasons by $4 each: reveal Trader to gain the Silver pile then don't reveal Trader to gain the Curses, gain 10 Dcarts & 20 Ruins.
5. Overbuy 4 Smasons by $2 each: gain 8 Embargoes
6. Overbuy 1 Smason by $3: gain last Masq and last Sroom
7. Buy an optimized amount of Ruins/Coppers/Estates (as the more left to buy, the less cash you generate with the big discard)
8. If needed, buy higher priced cards.
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