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Jeebus

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A timing question
« on: April 22, 2015, 09:52:21 pm »
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I realized that I'm still a little confused about resolving effects that happen at the same time.

In this post, which was thumbed by Donald, it's said that if my Prince plays my Throne Room, and I choose to TR a Guide, then after playing and resolving it twice, I can call it from the Tavern mat afterwards. So the Guide was placed on the Tavern mat in the beginning of my turn, and since it's still the beginning of my turn, I can call it right away. It was of course not on the Tavern mat when I started resolving effects that happen in the beginning of my turn.

A comparison is made with the age-old Moat and Secret Chamber. The Moat was not in my hand when I started resolving effects that happen when the other player played an Attack. The comparison seems reasonable.

However, in some ways this seems to contradict the rule that says that when several effects happen at the same time, you resolve all of them even if the conditions changed. See this thread. I buy a Mandarin with Royal Seal in play. I resolve Mandarin's when-gain first, putting all Treasures on top of my deck. I can then resolve Royal Seal's when-gain even though it's no longer in play. (Procession playing a Band of Misfits-as-Fortress also seems to be a version of this.)

So if several effects trigger at a certain time, I even resolve an effect that had the triggering condition changed before I could resolve it. But I also resolve an effect that had the triggering condition change the other way: the condition didn't allow resolving it at first, but changed in the meantime. It's not exactly a contradiction I guess, but it's damn close. Or am I thinking about this wrong?

eHalcyon

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2015, 10:05:11 pm »
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I don't think it's a contradiction. 

In the Mandarin + Royal Seal interaction, two effects trigger at the same time.  They go into a pool which you resolve one at a time, and you can choose the order to resolve them.  You keep resolving things until the pool is empty.

With Princed TR + Guide, the pool is for "start of turn" and it has "Princed TR" in it.  You resolve that effect.  You play TR, which you then use to play Guide twice.  Now you go back to the pool and you see that there is another effect there -- Guide on your reserve mat can also be called at the start of your turn, so you can do that now.
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Jeebus

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 10:09:55 pm »
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I don't think it's a contradiction. 

In the Mandarin + Royal Seal interaction, two effects trigger at the same time.  They go into a pool which you resolve one at a time, and you can choose the order to resolve them.  You keep resolving things until the pool is empty.

With Princed TR + Guide, the pool is for "start of turn" and it has "Princed TR" in it.  You resolve that effect.  You play TR, which you then use to play Guide twice.  Now you go back to the pool and you see that there is another effect there -- Guide on your reserve mat can also be called at the start of your turn, so you can do that now.

So you're saying that whatever is added to the pool can never be removed, even if the condition that added them is gone. But if an adding condition appears, the thing gets immediately added. Why does the pool update for new conditions appearing, but not for old conditions disappearing? It still seems contradictory.

werothegreat

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 10:21:39 pm »
+1

I don't think it's a contradiction. 

In the Mandarin + Royal Seal interaction, two effects trigger at the same time.  They go into a pool which you resolve one at a time, and you can choose the order to resolve them.  You keep resolving things until the pool is empty.

With Princed TR + Guide, the pool is for "start of turn" and it has "Princed TR" in it.  You resolve that effect.  You play TR, which you then use to play Guide twice.  Now you go back to the pool and you see that there is another effect there -- Guide on your reserve mat can also be called at the start of your turn, so you can do that now.

So you're saying that whatever is added to the pool can never be removed, even if the condition that added them is gone. But if an adding condition appears, the thing gets immediately added. Why does the pool update for new conditions appearing, but not for old conditions disappearing? It still seems contradictory.

There's a simpler way to think of this.

- Guide can be called at the start of your turn.
- If you have a Prince TR, TR is activated at the start of your turn.  You are then prompted to play a card.  You play Guide, it goes onto your Tavern mat.
- It is still the start of your turn.
- Oh, look, I have a Guide on my Tavern mat!  Since it is the start of my turn, I can call it.  It doesn't matter that it wasn't there when my turn actually "started."
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Donald X.

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 10:24:33 pm »
+3

I don't think it's a contradiction. 

In the Mandarin + Royal Seal interaction, two effects trigger at the same time.  They go into a pool which you resolve one at a time, and you can choose the order to resolve them.  You keep resolving things until the pool is empty.

With Princed TR + Guide, the pool is for "start of turn" and it has "Princed TR" in it.  You resolve that effect.  You play TR, which you then use to play Guide twice.  Now you go back to the pool and you see that there is another effect there -- Guide on your reserve mat can also be called at the start of your turn, so you can do that now.

So you're saying that whatever is added to the pool can never be removed, even if the condition that added them is gone. But if an adding condition appears, the thing gets immediately added. Why does the pool update for new conditions appearing, but not for old conditions disappearing? It still seems contradictory.
There's no contradiction, just a set of rules for handling things happening. They don't tell you to do conflicting things. There could be different rules but we have the ones we have.
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Jeebus

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 03:07:19 pm »
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There's no contradiction, just a set of rules for handling things happening. They don't tell you to do conflicting things. There could be different rules but we have the ones we have.

Ok, thanks for confirming that I got it right. It seemed a little inconsistent (which was the word I should have used), but as you're saying there's no contradiction.

Alsterschwan

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 05:39:11 am »
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if my Prince plays my Throne Room, and I choose to TR a Guide, then after playing and resolving it twice, I can call it from the Tavern mat afterwards. So the Guide was placed on the Tavern mat in the beginning of my turn, and since it's still the beginning of my turn, I can call it right away. It was of course not on the Tavern mat when I started resolving effects that happen in the beginning of my turn.

I do not understand this. Is "at the start of your turn" not the moment, the player to my right finished his turn? How can something, that happened after that moment, be also "start of turn"?

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Awaclus

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 05:58:49 am »
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if my Prince plays my Throne Room, and I choose to TR a Guide, then after playing and resolving it twice, I can call it from the Tavern mat afterwards. So the Guide was placed on the Tavern mat in the beginning of my turn, and since it's still the beginning of my turn, I can call it right away. It was of course not on the Tavern mat when I started resolving effects that happen in the beginning of my turn.

I do not understand this. Is "at the start of your turn" not the moment, the player to my right finished his turn? How can something, that happened after that moment, be also "start of turn"?

Basically, whenever something happens, triggers that trigger from that thing happening can keep triggering from it until they're all done triggering.
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Alsterschwan

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 06:45:49 am »
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Basically, whenever something happens, triggers that trigger from that thing happening can keep triggering from it until they're all done triggering.

?????

OK, lets ask other way: I would have guessed, that you look at the start of your turn, wether there are cards, which claim"resolve me now". If there are more than one, you make a list of them. Then you resolve them. And only them already on the list. If a NEW card could make it to the list due to the resolving, it is to late for those.

The whole thread seems to claim, that that there is special phase "At the start of your turn" before the standard action phase. And if anything in resolving during that phase results in new "at the start of your turn" cards, then those can / must be resolved also. Did i deduce that right?
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Awaclus

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 06:56:23 am »
+1

Basically, whenever something happens, triggers that trigger from that thing happening can keep triggering from it until they're all done triggering.

?????

OK, lets ask other way: I would have guessed, that you look at the start of your turn, wether there are cards, which claim"resolve me now". If there are more than one, you make a list of them. Then you resolve them. And only them already on the list. If a NEW card could make it to the list due to the resolving, it is to late for those.

The whole thread seems to claim, that that there is special phase "At the start of your turn" before the standard action phase. And if anything in resolving during that phase results in new "at the start of your turn" cards, then those can / must be resolved also. Did i deduce that right?

There is no special "At the start of your turn" phase. Directly after you have resolved anything that triggers because of something happening, you can always resolve another thing that triggers as a result of the same thing. For example, if you trash an Overgrown Estate with Chapel, and the Overgrown Estate draws a Market Square when it is trashed, you can discard that Market Square to gain a Gold.

You can think of it this way: Guide's ability triggers at the start of turn regardless of where it is. If it's not on the Tavern mat when the ability resolves, it doesn't do anything because you can't call it unless it's on the mat. Additionally, Reactions have the special rule that you're allowed to reveal them as many times as you want for the reason that there's no way to track if you're revealing the same card again or another copy of it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:01:08 am by Awaclus »
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ehunt

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 11:12:04 am »
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a turn consists of three phases: action, buy, cleanup. "start of turn" means everything that happens before the action phase. Since the Princed throne room isn't "you playing an action during your action phase," the "start of turn" isn't over yet.
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Jeebus

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 12:01:32 pm »
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OK, lets ask other way: I would have guessed, that you look at the start of your turn, wether there are cards, which claim"resolve me now". If there are more than one, you make a list of them. Then you resolve them. And only them already on the list. If a NEW card could make it to the list due to the resolving, it is to late for those.

The whole thread seems to claim, that that there is special phase "At the start of your turn" before the standard action phase. And if anything in resolving during that phase results in new "at the start of your turn" cards, then those can / must be resolved also. Did i deduce that right?

It's not a special phase, it's just a moment in time, like any other event in Dominion (when you trash a card, when you buy a card, when you play a card etc). The thing is that everything that happens in that moment is resolved one at a time, until they are all resolved. Only then is the moment over. Like you said, it's a list of things that happen in that moment. But a new thing that could make it on the list, will be added to the list, if the moment is not over yet. It's not too late. (But nothing can be removed from the list.) That's what this thread was about.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:02:35 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 01:39:10 pm »
+3

I do not understand this. Is "at the start of your turn" not the moment, the player to my right finished his turn? How can something, that happened after that moment, be also "start of turn"?
What you are hitting on is a classic problem with rules-on-cards. If two things happen "at the start of the turn," then once I do one, it's no longer the start of my turn, right? They can't both happen at the start of my turn (except in rare cases where some things can be simultaneous). This isn't specific to "start of turn;" it comes up any time two things are supposed to happen at the same time and can't happen simultaneously.

In Dominion the solution is that "when x happens" starts a time period in which all "when x happens" things can resolve, including new ones that come up during that time period, despite the fact that only one of them will actually have happened first. When two things need to happen at the start of your turn, okay, it's start-of-turn time, we resolve one and then look for more (including new ones), continuing until they're all done (in the case of optional ones that just means choosing not to do them).
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eHalcyon

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 01:53:52 pm »
+1

An intuitive way to understand it is through Durations.  Most Durations give you something "at the start of your next turn".  What if you have multiple Durations in play?  Intuitively, you still get all of those things.  If you have two Wharves from last turn, you draw 4 cards.  But actually, you are resolving one Wharf, then the second Wharf.
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Alsterschwan

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Re: A timing question
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 04:36:19 pm »
+1


... "when x happens" starts a time period in which all "when x happens" things can resolve, including new ones that come up during that time period, ...
 

Thank you very much. That is a KISS sentence, making all questions, examples and "think of it this way" superfluous. If only that sentence could be read in the rules.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 04:42:31 pm by Alsterschwan »
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