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Author Topic: Adventures Non-standard Openings  (Read 8308 times)

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jaketheyak

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Adventures Non-standard Openings
« on: April 20, 2015, 12:15:28 am »
+7

I have noticed that cards and events that mess with the standard 5/2 and 4/3 openings seems to be a bit of a theme in Adventures.
Here's the ones I have identified.
Let me know if I have missed any and please share your thoughts on how these might play out.

Kingdom Cards:

Messenger On a $4 (or $5) opening, this hands out an extra card costing up to $4 to every player.

Port Gain two of these on a $4 (or $5) opening (Village Idiot enabler!)

Those two can gain extra cards for you and your opponent in the opening turns, but otherwise the opening should play out as normal.

Lost City If you open with this on a $5 it can drastically improve your opponent's opening, amongst other things you can potentially give your opponent a 2/6 opening or get their turn one buy into their hand for turn two.

I think the drawback for opening Lost City means that it's an obvious mistake, so we probably won't see it much.

Events:

Alms This turns your 4/3 opening into a 4/4 and your 5/2 into a 5/4. Very nice.

Borrow The drawback is a bitter pill in the opening, but getting a 6/2 (or 6/1) opening or a 5/3 might prove tempting.

Quest Very unlikely to open with Quest, but the presence of Lost City at least makes it a possibility for a turn one Gold.

Save Allows you to open 0/6 instead of 2/5 or 1/5 instead of 3/4. The latter is particularly good if there is a key $5 card on the board.

Scouting Party On a 5/2 opening, this lets you discard all three Estates and still buy a $3 card (which has a chance to make it to your hand for turn two).

Travelling Fair Most likely use in an opening is to top-deck a $3 card on a 5/2 opening, so similar to Scouting Party opening but less cycling and more reliability. Top-decking a Chapel or other trasher could be interesting.

Bonfire You can trash two of your starting Coppers instead of buying a card. Probably not a great move.

Expedition Opening this turn one of a 3/4 gives a 90% chance of having $5+ to spend on turn two. Maybe worth the risk if there's a key $5.

Ferry I can see this being a very popular opening, particularly on 3/4. Hireling is an obvious target, but there are plenty of key $5+ cards that will land this one.

Plan Open with this turn one and start trashing from turn two.

Mission Could be used with Expedition to turn a 4/3 into a 70% chance of having $5+ to spend on turn two. A bit too risky for that and I can't see any other opening use.

Ball Turns a 5/2 opening into a 4+4/1 opening. Could be handy. Maybe even better on a 2/5 opening, depending on what you're gaining.

Raid Very antisocial opening, given it will gain you nothing but will hurt your opponent's opening.

Trade Baker or Lost City make it possible to use this on turn one or two to trash an Estate for a Silver. Probably not a great opening.

Inheritance It requires a crazy confluence of events (or cards) to get a first or second turn $7 (a Mission/Expedition opening can get there 0.8% of the time, but Lost City shenanigans seem more likely). But, hey, if you can open Inheritence you have managed to turn your starting Estates into something useful. Kudos.

There you have it.
Most of the Events can, in one way or another, change the dynamic of the usual 4/3 or 5/2 opening.
Any I have missed?
Any that seem really worthwhile?
Any that seem like they will really change the game in a big way?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2015, 01:18:38 am »
0

I think you're wrong about not wanting to trash two starting coppers with bonfire. That seems really good. Already, opening Great Hall just to trash Hovel is pretty good. Sure Hovel is worse than Copper but Copper is not great.

Anyway, yah, it's crazy how the openings really change with this set. I loved Baker for how it changed the opening splits, but this expansion really changes things in a big way.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2015, 01:34:30 am »
+1

I think you're wrong about not wanting to trash two starting coppers with bonfire. That seems really good. Already, opening Great Hall just to trash Hovel is pretty good. Sure Hovel is worse than Copper but Copper is not great.

I guess the reason I questioned that as an opening is that you are forgoing a $3 buy while at the same time reducing the purchasing power of your deck.
Thinking about it, it does get whatever you buy at $4 circulating faster, and it's not nearly as damaging to your economy as trashing all your Coppers which is a trap that Chapel can lead you into.
You've convinced me, it's probably a decent option.
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popsofctown

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 01:48:50 am »
+4

Mint+Alms.

In general lots of "irresponsible" trashing seems to be made ok by alms.

Messenger seems to give player 2 advantage with Nomad Camp, waiting for the opponent to commit to a second Swindler or other power terminal before blamming him with a Nomad Camp (You'd have to pair it with Silver.) (Ok this seems weak but figuring out p2 advantage plays are hard)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 01:50:55 am by popsofctown »
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Gherald

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 02:00:59 am »
+1

Baker+Borrow for a $7 seems like it could be a thing in some situations, like Inheritance for 3 Ironmongers to play on Turn 2
Quote
Ferry I can see this being a very popular opening, particularly on 3/4. Hireling is an obvious target, but there are plenty of key $5+ cards that will land this one.
Hireling is not a good $6 opening, a Gold would be better when possible (obviously not via Ferry in that case, there'd probably be a Baker or Borrow with 5 coppers).

Making future Hirelings cost you $4 can be good, but on most boards you would probably want a Silver and something else (like a trasher) then do the Ferry Hirelings on turn 3. So it's not that good of a target for T1/T2; there are very many better targets.
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enfynet

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 02:09:09 am »
0

I could see opening with Ferry/Hireling to hide your intentions on a slog board. Or just to mess with your friends like I'm going to do when I play this kingdom:

Think Big: Ball, Ferry / Distant Lands, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Storyteller / Contraband, Expand, Hoard, King's Court, Peddler
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Warwing25

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 02:16:31 am »
0

Is the lost city opening that bad since it means on their first reshuffle they only get 1 card to use. On boards with powerful 3 drops or on chapel boards sometimes the extra coin doesnt matter because they will overpay for it.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 02:18:50 am »
0

Baker+Borrow for a $7 seems like it could be a thing in some situations, like Inheritance for 3 Ironmongers to play on Turn 2
Quote
Ferry I can see this being a very popular opening, particularly on 3/4. Hireling is an obvious target, but there are plenty of key $5+ cards that will land this one.
Hireling is not a good $6 opening, a Gold would be better when possible (obviously not via Ferry in that case, there'd probably be a Baker or Borrow with 5 coppers).

Making future Hirelings cost you $4 can be good, but on most boards you would probably want a Silver and something else (like a trasher) then do the Ferry Hirelings on turn 3. So it's not that good of a target for T1/T2; there are very many better targets.

Baker+Borrow is a much less convoluted path to a $7 turn one than what I came up with.

I can see why you don't necessarily want to get Hireling as an opening buy (particularly as your only opening buy), but Gold is not an alternative in the Ferry/Hireling scenario described, because Ferry only works on Actions.

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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 02:29:04 am »
0

Is the lost city opening that bad since it means on their first reshuffle they only get 1 card to use. On boards with powerful 3 drops or on chapel boards sometimes the extra coin doesnt matter because they will overpay for it.

Lost City turn one is where the real danger lies.
If you buy Lost City on turn one, you don't just potentially give your opponent extra buying power in their opening, but you also trigger your opponent's reshuffle on turn two.

Say both players have a starting hand of 5 Coppers.
Player one goes first and buys Lost City.
Player two draws a sixth Copper.

Player two goes next and buys a Gold.
Player two draws his hand for his next turn, picking up three Estates and one Copper, reshuffles and draws the Gold.
Player one has turned player two's opening from a 5/2 into a 6/4.

This is an extreme example, perhaps, but there are all sorts of cards you really don't want your opponent to have access to in turn two.
Chapel, for instance.
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Gherald

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 02:41:13 am »
0

I know it's not in that case which is why I said so -- however, it is important to understand that when you do have 6 Gold is much better than Hireling on T1/T2

The actual thing to Ferry on T1 depends too much on the kingdom, otherwise I'd tell you something specific (Hunting Party, Minion, Wharf, whatever).

Ferry actually seems crazy now that I'm looking at it closely. It's so cheap for a permanent Quarry effect while you buy that contested pile.  I've already decided I don't like Ferry, for 2-player it will make make a lot of games be like IGG and Cultist where both just piledrive the same thing. For you to Ferry something different than your opponent those 2 things will have to be very similar in usefulness, and it's not often that happens.  Mirrors will be common.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 03:25:59 am »
0

Ah, sorry, I completely missed that part of your post.

I'm not so sure that Ferry will make mirrors more likely than they are currently. I mean, if there is a card you and your opponent both want to get a lot of, that's not really changed by making it cheaper. It just means you get to the end of the pile faster (which is another recurring theme).

And, to me, a mirror isn't when you both want the same single card anyway. A mirror is when you're both playing the same overall strategy. $3 Labs will be snapped up quickly, but they are only part of the equation.

There aren't that many cards that form a strategy in and of themselves, and those that do tend to form mirrors already. Rebuild at $3 is basically the same game as before, but mercifully quicker.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 07:39:49 am »
0

Mission/Alms might be a thing?
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TheOthin

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 07:43:26 am »
0

Mission/Alms might be a thing?

Interesting. On a 4/3, you still pick up a $4 card on your first "turn", but then you can shuffle immediately. And even on a 3/4 or something, if your $3 is something you want to get to faster like Chapel, it could be worthwhile.

The odds of two given Events showing up together are very low, though, despite the strong synergy those two have.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 07:49:00 am »
0

Mission/Ferry could be a thing if you're Ferrying a $6-cost. Maybe Mission/Plan if you're Planning a $4-cost?
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Gherald

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 07:54:54 am »
0

You mean Alms not Mission, but ok sure
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 01:33:58 pm »
+2

Mint+Alms.

I once opened Mint/T-Map/T-Map using Alms and collided them turn 4. This was unfortunately solitaire so no great opponent reaction.
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Tables

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 02:38:31 pm »
+2

Turn 2 Lost City is sometimes going to worthwhile thing, depending on your opponent's opening. If you both open 2/5 and there's no good $2 then player 1 buying Lost City forces their opponent to reshuffle turn 2, leaving then with a 4 card deck of mostly junk and 5-6 coppers in hand. The best case for them here depends on the board but this seems mostly to favour player 1.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 04:08:36 pm »
0

Mission/Ferry could be a thing if you're Ferrying a $6-cost. Maybe Mission/Plan if you're Planning a $4-cost?

I opened Ferry/Plan once, which could probably be good sometimes. But I screwed up and put the tokens on some terminal that you only want 2-3 of.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 05:37:26 pm »
0

You mean Alms not Mission, but ok sure

If you mean me, I was looking at different reasons to open Mission, basically to speed up your reshuffle. Mission/Ferry seems good to you get what would normally cost $6 on turn 2 or 3 before shuffling after turn 3. Not sure about Mission/Plan though.

Ferry/Alms seems good on a 4/3, but of course only achieves the same as a 3/4 does.
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Warwing25

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 04:59:18 pm »
0

Is the lost city opening that bad since it means on their first reshuffle they only get 1 card to use. On boards with powerful 3 drops or on chapel boards sometimes the extra coin doesnt matter because they will overpay for it.

Lost City turn one is where the real danger lies.
If you buy Lost City on turn one, you don't just potentially give your opponent extra buying power in their opening, but you also trigger your opponent's reshuffle on turn two.

Say both players have a starting hand of 5 Coppers.
Player one goes first and buys Lost City.
Player two draws a sixth Copper.

Player two goes next and buys a Gold.
Player two draws his hand for his next turn, picking up three Estates and one Copper, reshuffles and draws the Gold.
Player one has turned player two's opening from a 5/2 into a 6/4.

This is an extreme example, perhaps, but there are all sorts of cards you really don't want your opponent to have access to in turn two.
Chapel, for instance.

I get what you're saying now but I'm still confused on why triggering their reshuffle is so bad. For example they are 4/3 they will likely become a 4/4 and 1 of their buys misses the reshuffle. I guess it depends on whether you value that card missing the reshuffle less important than giving your opponent a copper
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2015, 08:39:23 pm »
0

Is the lost city opening that bad since it means on their first reshuffle they only get 1 card to use. On boards with powerful 3 drops or on chapel boards sometimes the extra coin doesnt matter because they will overpay for it.

Lost City turn one is where the real danger lies.
If you buy Lost City on turn one, you don't just potentially give your opponent extra buying power in their opening, but you also trigger your opponent's reshuffle on turn two.

Say both players have a starting hand of 5 Coppers.
Player one goes first and buys Lost City.
Player two draws a sixth Copper.

Player two goes next and buys a Gold.
Player two draws his hand for his next turn, picking up three Estates and one Copper, reshuffles and draws the Gold.
Player one has turned player two's opening from a 5/2 into a 6/4.

This is an extreme example, perhaps, but there are all sorts of cards you really don't want your opponent to have access to in turn two.
Chapel, for instance.

I get what you're saying now but I'm still confused on why triggering their reshuffle is so bad. For example they are 4/3 they will likely become a 4/4 and 1 of their buys misses the reshuffle. I guess it depends on whether you value that card missing the reshuffle less important than giving your opponent a copper

It's most likely to give your opponent an extra Copper, sure, but there is a 1/6 chance that it will give your opponent their turn one buy instead.

So, if your opponent starts with a 4/3 opening, here are just a couple of examples of $4 cards they could end up playing on turn two:

Sea Hag - hope you don't mind me discarding that Lost City before you even get to play it.
Remake - trashing two estates and getting two $3 cards on turn two? Yes, please.
Militia (or any other attack, really)

You really, really don't want your opponent to get the kind of head start that's possible by getting their turn one buy into their hand on turn two.
Even if it's only a 1/6 chance it will happen, with some possibilities that's just too big a risk.
And even if they don't get their turn one buy in hand in turn two, they are guaranteed to get it turn three.

Their turn two buy "missing the reshuffle" is not really a disadvantage, because they shuffle again after turn three (or during, if they bought a card with draw).

Look at my original example of player two buying Gold on turn one and drawing it on turn two.
Now imagine that it is Altar instead.
Man, if my opponent drew an Altar on turn two, I think I would cry.


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Warwing25

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 06:52:01 pm »
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I agree now. I was envisioning a weaker board when I made that point. So the question is would you buy it against silver, and also how about as player 2 on turn 2.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 10:19:29 pm »
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I agree now. I was envisioning a weaker board when I made that point. So the question is would you buy it against silver, and also how about as player 2 on turn 2.

Yeah, I think "it depends on the board" always applies.
And for player two it is less of a risk playing it on turn two.

The other thing that makes it tricky is that you're going to really want Lost City in your deck.
If there are any decent attacks or other key terminal cards out there, the choice is easy and you buy those first, but if there are no other good options at $5 it's going to be a hard one to pass up.
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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 10:26:53 pm »
+1

The other thing that makes it tricky is that you're going to really want Lost City in your deck.
If there are any decent attacks or other key terminal cards out there, the choice is easy and you buy those first, but if there are no other good options at $5 it's going to be a hard one to pass up.

In that case, if your gaining LC gets them up to $5, they're probably going to get their own LC, and you'll get to draw an extra card yourself.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Adventures Non-standard Openings
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 11:41:54 pm »
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Yeah, I quite like that aspect of a lot of "friendly interaction" cards, that there is a certain skill in finding the right way or the right timing to help your opponent in a way that maximises your benefit and minimises theirs.

Messenger provides an even more strategic version of this.
Finding the right card to gain with Messenger that you know you'll get better use out of than your opponent is going to be tricky.
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