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scott_pilgrim

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Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« on: April 19, 2015, 04:49:08 pm »
+1

Since Adventures adds so many new ideas and mechanics to the game, and since it's still completely new to us, I thought there should be a thread for this.  Also, because I wanted to bring this up in the discussion about Caravan Guard but didn't want to make that thread to fan-cardsy.

So here's a couple ideas I was thinking about that use the Caravan Guard reaction mechanic:

Action-Duration-Reaction $3
Trash a card from your hand.
At the start of your next turn, +$2.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand.

The trashing and lack of card draw makes it a good defense against handsize attacks, and the trashing in general makes it a response to cursers in the long run I guess.  You also get the money sooner when an attack is played, which is usually good for you.  So it feels more like the reactions we're used to, that actually interact with attacks in some way (rather than just triggering when attacks are played).  Another version I was thinking of:

Action-Duration-Reaction $3
Trash a card from your hand.
At the start of your next turn, draw until you have six cards in hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand.

This probably counters discard attacks too hard though, and I feel like that interaction is being made too explicit, since drawing up to six at the start of your turn usually just means +1 card otherwise (I guess it also makes it not stack).
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TheOthin

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 04:55:07 pm »
+1

I don't know how these would balance out, but I do like the sound of them a lot more than the original. Being terminal adds a lot more to the benefit of playing it for free, and while +Card is the only vanilla bonus that would stick around from an opponent's turn, turning to stuff like trashing that decreases handsize instead helps emphasize the Reaction importance even more.
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popsofctown

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2015, 01:37:30 am »
+2

I don't -get- the original.  How is it good? You don't reduce your handsize in order to reduce the number of cards you'll have to discard to militia.  You don't generate more coins for next turn, but you generate less for next next turn.  It's nonterminal but it was already nonterminal.
The only thing it seems to do is solve the "discarding down to 3 from 5 pearl divers sucks" problem, but you pay 1 next-next turn coin (with the benefit of shuffling it back in sooner, I guess).  And that's not always a problem, if your cantrip density isn't megahigh you can find some estates or coppers anyway.
The signal to noise ratio on the special ability seems low.


Trashing from hand to avoid discard makes sense, though. 
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 10:25:33 am »
+2

Caravan Guard doesn't give you the coin the turn you play it. It's not a Peddler normally. When you use it to react to an attack, though, it becomes a Peddler instead of a delayed Peddler.
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pacovf

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 10:47:19 am »
0

I think Caravan Guard's reaction is alright. It doesn't counter any attack (not even Troll Bridge, in my opinion), but it helps you anyway. It's a cantrip, the reaction couldn't be too strong anyway, plus they can't all be the best reaction ever and all that.

I also think people would be complaining less if the reaction was tacked to something that looked a bit more like, say, Gear.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 10:58:22 am »
0

I think Caravan Guard's reaction is alright. It doesn't counter any attack (not even Troll Bridge, in my opinion),

Yeah I don't get the idea that it counters Troll Bridge at all. That's like saying that Laboratory counters Militia or Ghost Ship, because you'll get to draw 2 cards to replace the 2 you lost. Well now, you still end up with 2 less cards than you would have had without the attack; and with Troll Bridge / Caravan Guard, you still end up with $1 less than you would have had without the attack. Though the reaction part sort of "delays" the attack, because you end up with the the same amount of money on your upcoming turn as if the attack hadn't been played, but you get $1 less on the turn after that, since Caravan Guard is no longer sticking around waiting to give you that $1.
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popsofctown

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 12:10:10 pm »
0

Oh, I misread it.  That explains it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 11:18:47 pm »
0

a) I have Caravan Guard in hand.  You play Bridge Troll.  I play Caravan Guard, and next turn I get $1, cancelled out by your BT.  I then discard CG this turn.

b) I have CG in hand.  You don't play BT, I want until my own turn to play CG, and just draw a card.  I have to wait until my next turn to get the money, and in the meantime, CG might miss the reshuffle anyway.

c) I don't have CG in hand, but you do play BT.  I lose $1 next turn.

Situation a) is definitely preferable to c), and not really all that much different from situation b).  I don't think it's fair to say it's like Lab countering Militia, because Lab is neither a Reaction nor a Duration; it's not like you can play the Lab when someone plays Militia to guarantee you draw back up to 5 next turn - you still have to wait until your turn to play it, and in the meantime you still have to discard two cards.

I'll also add that this gets better if you have more than one CG - you play BT, I play 3 CG's, and get +$2 sooner than I would have gotten +$3 had you not played BT.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 11:19:53 pm by werothegreat »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 11:52:23 pm »
+1

a) I have Caravan Guard in hand.  You play Bridge Troll.  I play Caravan Guard, and next turn I get $1, cancelled out by your BT.  I then discard CG this turn.

b) I have CG in hand.  You don't play BT, I want until my own turn to play CG, and just draw a card.  I have to wait until my next turn to get the money, and in the meantime, CG might miss the reshuffle anyway.

c) I don't have CG in hand, but you do play BT.  I lose $1 next turn.

Situation a) is definitely preferable to c), and not really all that much different from situation b).  I don't think it's fair to say it's like Lab countering Militia, because Lab is neither a Reaction nor a Duration; it's not like you can play the Lab when someone plays Militia to guarantee you draw back up to 5 next turn - you still have to wait until your turn to play it, and in the meantime you still have to discard two cards.

I'll also add that this gets better if you have more than one CG - you play BT, I play 3 CG's, and get +$2 sooner than I would have gotten +$3 had you not played BT.

Comparing (a) and (c) isn't the right way to do it.  The comparison should be between using the reaction or not using it.

d) I have CG in hand, you play BT, I don't use the reaction.  On my next turn I play CG and have $1 less than I would have.  But the turn after that, I have $1 more.  CG might miss the shuffle.

The difference is whether you get CG's $1 this turn or next.  Over both turns, BT still costs you $1 and CG grants you $1.  The reaction is thus not really a counter at all and the comparison to Lab is pretty fair.

Getting the coin sooner is probably a little better most of the time, but not always.  Along with the reshuffle consideration, that makes the reaction a little better than just playing it normally.  But only a little, I think.

Having more than one CG only makes a difference vs. hand-size attacks.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 12:01:56 am »
0

If your opponent plays a Bridge Troll every turn as their only attack, and you react with Caravan Guard every turn, it completely nullifies the attack. So clearly the idea with Caravan Guard is to only have 4 non-CGs in your hand.

I actually think the point of Caravan Guard is as a kind of mini-Coin Token (do you want to spend it this turn or next?), and opponents' attacks are simply what enable it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2015, 12:04:40 am »
+2

If your opponent plays a Bridge Troll every turn as their only attack, and you react with Caravan Guard every turn, it completely nullifies the attack. So clearly the idea with Caravan Guard is to only have 4 non-CGs in your hand.

I actually think the point of Caravan Guard is as a kind of mini-Coin Token (do you want to spend it this turn or next?), and opponents' attacks are simply what enable it.

It would nullify the attack in the same way if you played a CG every turn instead of using the reaction, or if you played Peddler every turn, or if you played a Copper every turn...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 12:07:22 am »
0

If your opponent plays a Bridge Troll every turn as their only attack, and you react with Caravan Guard every turn, it completely nullifies the attack. So clearly the idea with Caravan Guard is to only have 4 non-CGs in your hand.

I actually think the point of Caravan Guard is as a kind of mini-Coin Token (do you want to spend it this turn or next?), and opponents' attacks are simply what enable it.

It would nullify the attack in the same way if you played a CG every turn instead of using the reaction, or if you played Peddler every turn, or if you played a Copper every turn...

Except CG nullifies it for the first turn it occurs as well.

(I don't actually think it really counters it.)
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FishingVillage

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 03:47:29 pm »
+2

Well, I also have an idea inspired by Caravan Guard but it will likely make people hate me :)

Quote
Horse Archer $5
Action - Attack - Reaction

Draw up to 6 cards in hand, then trash 1 or discard 1 card from hand.
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
---
When you have fewer than 4 cards in hand, you may play this from your hand.

As for Caravan Guard itself... it depends on whether the appropriate reaction is even in the kingdom, but you could draw into a Moat for example right? Or something else you care about, like a Watchtower for junk attacks or Tunnel for discard attacks. Kind of the same deal as Secret Chamber but I think I like CG more. It's true though, by itself CG isn't that interesting and doesn't really help much while it is in play on other player turns.
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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2015, 04:07:49 pm »
+1

Horse Archer could quickly turn into DominHun civil war.
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market squire

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2015, 04:59:05 pm »
0

That's an interesting trigger. Maybe it should trigger at a certain point of time rather than all the time when you have 4 cards. My suggestion is somthing like, "When your handsize becomes less than 5, you may play this from your hand."
Also I'd avoid a card that counters its own Attack. It would be very confusing to play Horse Archer, then have an opponent reveal a Horse Archer, which lets you reveal your other Horse Archer due to being Horse Arched in your own turn etc. I would just cancel it. The effect is neat enough with cards that reduce handsize.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2015, 06:24:58 pm »
0

It's a bad idea right now because it's a reaction that hurts attackers.  I play Horse Archer, allowing you to play Horse Archer and causing me to have to discard down to 3.  Bleh.  It might be interesting without the attack portion.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2015, 06:31:25 pm »
0

I just like the idea of an attack that can act as a counter-attack, but all the timing issues brought up I can understand being a pain to resolve (as well as the fact that a player could get hosed on his own turn, probably not so fun). A variant of the trigger that I had in mind was more like Horse Traders:

Quote
When you have fewer than 4 cards in hand, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, then at the start of your next turn, play this.

You could trigger it any time, but the actual resolution happened at a specific point in time, so that would drastically reduce timing conflicts and doesn't immediately counter itself. I thought that particular trigger was not quite as fun/chaotic as the one presented here ;P

I think "handsize becomes less than 5" would be too easy to trigger though. That would basically only require 1 action that doesn't draw and suddenly Horse Archer would provide its own Action. Less than 4 cards in hand would mean 3 or less, which is after getting hit by Militia/Torturer/Margrave, or after playing at least 2 non-draw actions from your hand, or after using an action that discards cards from hand.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2015, 06:47:16 pm »
+1

The problem with a reaction that happens on a "while" trigger rather than a "when" trigger is that it's possible to get into a situation where optimal play involves waiting forever.  Suppose there's a reaction card that triggers while you have fewer than 4 cards in hand.  We get hit by a Militia, so now it's possible for both of us to trigger the reaction, but for whatever reason, we both think "I want to do this reaction if and only if I see someone else do it first".  Now normally, we resolve same-time triggers in turn order, so I would decide whether I want to do it, and then you would decide, and then we'd move on with our lives.  But with a "while" trigger, I can decide not to do it because I want to see whether you do it first; and you decide not to do it because you want to see whether I do it first; and hey, the condition is still met that I have fewer than 4 cards in hand, so I have to decide not to do it again; etc.

Now whether that actually comes up in practice is a different story, and maybe it's just sort of a Bishop-Fortress or KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument thing where there's potentially an infinite like that but it's just so rare that you hope it never comes up in actual play or that players can call it a draw if it happens.  But it's something to consider at least.  I personally don't think that particular trigger is exciting enough to make it worthwhile to deal with that issue.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2015, 07:28:47 pm »
0

Forgive me, but isn't it possible for someone to want to show off Moat forever, or use Secret Chamber to switch other cards out of hand indefinitely? Or would the problem be with wanting to play Horse Archer last to be the player with an actual hand at the end of it all?

If the problem is that the game could be delayed forever, then that's already something which can happen in canon Dominion but we deal with it.

If the problem is that you want to be the last to use Horse Archer in order to be the least screwed over, then imo the new trigger that I posted earlier deals with those timing issues more appropriately. There's no advantage to waiting for me to set aside Horse Archer if you have one in hand, because they'll trigger in turn order instead of now.

I have other cards I can propose if Horse Archer isn't worth pursuing any further, but first I'd like to see if anyone else might be interested in it.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 08:16:32 pm »
+1

Forgive me, but isn't it possible for someone to want to show off Moat forever, or use Secret Chamber to switch other cards out of hand indefinitely? Or would the problem be with wanting to play Horse Archer last to be the player with an actual hand at the end of it all?

If the problem is that the game could be delayed forever, then that's already something which can happen in canon Dominion but we deal with it.

If the problem is that you want to be the last to use Horse Archer in order to be the least screwed over, then imo the new trigger that I posted earlier deals with those timing issues more appropriately. There's no advantage to waiting for me to set aside Horse Archer if you have one in hand, because they'll trigger in turn order instead of now.

I have other cards I can propose if Horse Archer isn't worth pursuing any further, but first I'd like to see if anyone else might be interested in it.

Right, the problem is different from Moat/SC because there's no advantage in those cases to revealing them forever.  With a "while" trigger, there could potentially be an advantage to waiting forever.

In practice, you can try to design the card so that that sort of situation is unlikely to come up, but it's almost always there, in at least some edge cases.  I don't know if there's any effect that you could have that completely eliminates the problem.  For example, if we're playing Horse Archer in a game with Tunnel in it, then if a player reveals Horse Archer, he's slightly more likely to have a Tunnel in his next hand.  So it would be possible for two perfectly rational players to want to wait indefinitely to see whether the other reveals a Horse Archer, to better inform his decision as to whether he should reveal his own.  It's a very specific edge case in practice, but it's something to consider.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just pointing out something you should be thinking about with that kind of reaction trigger.  I think you have to be really careful with that sort of thing and I prefer to just stay away from it, but if you really like the idea, no one's stopping you from trying it out!
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FishingVillage

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2015, 09:25:30 pm »
+1

Right, the problem is different from Moat/SC because there's no advantage in those cases to revealing them forever.  With a "while" trigger, there could potentially be an advantage to waiting forever.

In practice, you can try to design the card so that that sort of situation is unlikely to come up, but it's almost always there, in at least some edge cases.  I don't know if there's any effect that you could have that completely eliminates the problem.  For example, if we're playing Horse Archer in a game with Tunnel in it, then if a player reveals Horse Archer, he's slightly more likely to have a Tunnel in his next hand.  So it would be possible for two perfectly rational players to want to wait indefinitely to see whether the other reveals a Horse Archer, to better inform his decision as to whether he should reveal his own.  It's a very specific edge case in practice, but it's something to consider.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just pointing out something you should be thinking about with that kind of reaction trigger.  I think you have to be really careful with that sort of thing and I prefer to just stay away from it, but if you really like the idea, no one's stopping you from trying it out!

Thank you for the responses and the critique! Admittedly, I'm still not sure I understand the problem with Tunnel that you've mentioned, but I don't want to derail this thread too much. I decided to move Horse Archer into its own thread and let it have its own discussion there.

Meanwhile, I'm working on another idea to post here, hopefully it'll work a little better!

Edit:
Quote
Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash 1 card from your hand. Discard up to 2 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)

This is similar to the earlier ideas proposed by scott_pilgrim, but there's no Duration part to this card. If you get attacked, you get to play Monastery and fix up your deck while not having to spend the action that it would normally consume on your own turn. Since Monasteries get played out of your hand, you can't indefinitely draw, trash and discard off of 1 Monastery, but multiple Monasteries can work well together.

Even when no Attacks are available to trigger it earlier, Monastery can be used to clean up your deck very quickly and gives you a large amount of control over what's in your hand.

Old version:
Quote
Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 01:56:12 am by FishingVillage »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 09:02:55 pm »
+1

Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)

That looks ridiculously powerful, even without the Reaction. For the most part it's a way better Chapel.

Also, parenthetical stuff on a card is used to remind you of rules, not to change them. Monastery would be discarded at the end of the turn on which it is played. Why would you even want to change that?
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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 09:17:33 pm »
0

Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)

That looks ridiculously powerful, even without the Reaction. For the most part it's a way better Chapel.

Also, parenthetical stuff on a card is used to remind you of rules, not to change them.

Well, it does change the rules on a couple of official cards (Bureaucrat, etc. and Governor). But I agree that there's no reason to have it here, and that this would be way too powerful — not only would I buy this over Chapel every time (which might not be a problem since this costs more than Chapel does anyway), but I would also buy it over Count, Junk Dealer and Forge more or less every time, just for the reason that it gives super fast trashing early while also leaving you with a guaranteed $3 hand, and then there's also the potential to build strong engines with the draw-to-x ability.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2015, 12:01:59 am »
0

Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)

That looks ridiculously powerful, even without the Reaction. For the most part it's a way better Chapel.

Also, parenthetical stuff on a card is used to remind you of rules, not to change them. Monastery would be discarded at the end of the turn on which it is played. Why would you even want to change that?
Sorry, is there precedence for a card played out of turn outside of Caravan Guard? I wasn't aware of how cleaning up a card played out of turn would work if it wasn't a Duration, which is why I added the reminder text. If the rules can already handle cards played out of turn, then okay the reminder isn't needed.

As for Monastery being too powerful, would it be more interesting if it had a mandatory trash 1 and a mandatory discard 1 instead?
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Re: Ideas Inspired by Adventures
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2015, 12:08:56 am »
0

Monastery $4
Action - Reaction
Draw up to 6 cards in hand. Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may play this from your hand. (Discard this from play during your own Clean-Up phase.)

That looks ridiculously powerful, even without the Reaction. For the most part it's a way better Chapel.

Also, parenthetical stuff on a card is used to remind you of rules, not to change them. Monastery would be discarded at the end of the turn on which it is played. Why would you even want to change that?
Sorry, is there precedence for a card played out of turn outside of Caravan Guard? I wasn't aware of how cleaning up a card played out of turn would work if it wasn't a Duration, which is why I added the reminder text. If the rules can already handle cards played out of turn, then okay the reminder isn't needed.

As for Monastery being too powerful, would it be more interesting if it had a mandatory trash 1 and a mandatory discard 1 instead?
An unused Outpost is cleaned up on your opponent's turn. This would be as well. It is finished doing things on that turn.
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