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Author Topic: Handling disconnects  (Read 10247 times)

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nate_w

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Handling disconnects
« on: April 19, 2015, 03:55:14 pm »
+1

Hey, guys.  Like SwitchedFromStarcraft, not particularly interested into getting into the result of the game, more in participating in how the community deals with issues.  I'm a proponent of community driven suggestions, with final decisions made by organizers trying in good faith to reflect the will of the community.
 
I'd like to offer up a specific suggestion going forward that addresses disconnects:
 
If the person who is ahead disconnects and there is a >0 chance of the other player winning, there should be a rematch.  Players should try to agree about the situation (and if they do, player decisions are not reviewed, but if players cannot agree that there was a >0 chance of comeback, replay for now, with Stef , Adam, and Andrew (or whoever) looking at the log later to see if the person behind had a chance.

After turn 5 or so, if the person who is behind disconnects, replay if it is closer to 50% chance of comeback, forfeit if closer to 0% chance, as agreed upon by the players.  If both players cannot agree, replay for now, with Stef  et al looking at the log later to decide if it reached the 25% threshold, with a forfeit being easy to change to later. 

My reasoning is that, yes it sucks to rob the person who disconnected a chance to come back and win, but it also sucks to rob the person who was ahead of their advantage.  And while neither party is usually REALLY to blame for a disconnect, it feels especially injurious to rob the person who was ahead when the other player disconnected.
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-Stef-

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 04:21:22 pm »
0

Hi nate, I split off your post because I also would like to get a positive discussion going that's only about how to handle disconnects in the future.

We (Adam, Andrew, I) have been talking about it quite a bit and don't fully agree on it yet so maybe some more people can give their opinions.
I will make some separate posts in this thread advocating the options we've been discussing so far.
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 04:24:40 pm »
0

This is my most recent proposal. It might be too complicated?


Handling incomplete games
If a game unexpectedly ends because either goko breaks down or one of the players accidentally disconnects (internet connection lost, computer crashes, ...) please use the following guidelines.
  • Try to assess the game state together with your opponent. Was the game completely open, or was either player ahead? How big was the lead?  Either way, the result of this discussion should be a win percentage for both players, summing up to 100%.
  • Convert the win percentage into a game result. If your estimated win percentage is below 10%, please just offer to resign this game. If it's between 50% and 60%, offering to replay the game is the way to go. If it isn't within any of these ranges for you or your opponent, assign a win fraction to the game according to the percentage that you agreed upon in step 1. E.g. if you have agreed on a 70% win chance for you and 30% for your opponent, the result of this game would be 0.7-0.3

  • If either player disconnected, that player should not get the benefit of the doubt. Losing about 5%-10% of your chances because you disconnected is fine.
  • Choosing an exact number may be scary. You will never have a solid argument why you would have 28% chance of winning rather then 27%. Feel completely free to just guess something. There is a huge chance that the actual number you come up with won't matter at all. When computing the standings, both 27% and 28% are more then a loss and less then a tie. The only scenario where it might matter at all is if another game in your group also has to be decided like this
  • If you and your opponent cannot agree on a win percentage simply because you continue to disagree about the game state, you have the option of leaving this decision to your group moderator. Your moderator won't enjoy making this decision for you either, so please do try to prevent it by coming up with a solution together, but if you really can't the option does exist. Both players should post in their groups thread what they think about the gamestate and what percentage they consider fair before making a request to the group moderator to decide. There will not be any discussions about this - it's just the players stating their opinions first and then the group moderator making a decision. This decision could be a win/loss/tie, any other fractional score or a replay.
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-Stef-

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 04:27:15 pm »
0

A possible idea to restrict the complexity is to give people less options. In stead of choosing a percentage, they get to choose from some descriptions.
For example it could be {win, dominating lead, clearly ahead, replay, clearly behind, almost hopeless, loss}
or perhaps {win, clearly ahead, replay, clearly behind, loss}

and then convert those descriptions into a fraction of a win?
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-Stef-

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 04:29:38 pm »
0

Finally Adam has some other ideas that I hope he will advocate further when he gets back from his mini-vacation or something alike.
Actually, I think what Adam wants is very similar to what nate_w was advocating in his opening post.

My main concern is that you only use the options {loss, replay, win} and don't want to use fractional wins, somebody is always going to lose quite a bit and thus be unhappy with the result.
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mpsprs

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 05:13:43 pm »
+1

First of all, let me say that I agree with having a discussion. 

I think the most important thing is having a solid policy, and said policy ultimately (and perhaps unfortunately) will rest on the moderators making a decision if the involved players disagree on the state of the game. 

To try to avoid that as much as possible, I like having only a few categories.  I don't consider myself particularly capable of distinguishing between say a 20% and a 40% win chance (and I suspect those who have watched me on stream lately have a similar opinion of my abilities).  And yes, what Stef says is true-the difference is unlikely to matter-but I'd still rather not have to make fine distinctions.

I also think the policy should explicitly say that while of course we are all trying to win, and we are quite competitive, the goal is to have fun, and so we should keep that perspective.

AdamH

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 05:50:07 pm »
0

Finally Adam has some other ideas that I hope he will advocate further when he gets back from his mini-vacation or something alike.
Actually, I think what Adam wants is very similar to what nate_w was advocating in his opening post.

I like all of the things in Stef's post, the only thing I think could be changed is that I would prefer the first choice at a solution to be one of (win, loss, replay) and if one of those isn't agreed upon and clearly a good idea, then move on to the other stuff. So like all of this would be step 2 when step 1 is "try to agree on win, lose, or replay"
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liopoil

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 06:04:38 pm »
+6

1) I don't think it should matter who disconnects. We are all on the honor system not to intentionally disconnect, and assuming we all follow that there is no reason to assign different outcomes depending on who disconnected.

2) I'm not a huge fan of allowing there to be fractional wins. Everything is cleaner if all game results are either win, lose, or tie. If it is decided this is necessary, that's alright. But I think we can avoid being too unfair with win, lose, and replay being the only options. >75% chance of winning, you win. 25-75% chance of winning, replay. <25% chance of winning, you lose. In this way nobody can be given or robbed of more than .25 game points, and on average just .125.

3) However, some points are worth more than others. Sometimes a tie just as good as a win in the end, but a loss much worse than a tie, or vice-versa. This can throw a wrench into how fair the system ends up being. Similar problems show up if we allow fractional game points (beyond .5 for a tie). If there is only one disconnected game in a division, there is no difference between .01 and .49, if we convert percentage into points. That is a much larger problem, in my opinion.
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AdamH

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 11:35:18 pm »
+1

The main source of my reservations about fractional wins is that I think assigning odds of winning a game is entirely subjective. In theory (and definitely not in practice) you could come up with a win rate assuming "ideal" play by both players, but even that doesn't mean anything because you have to decide at what point in the game that becomes relevant enough to not just replay the game but go with these percentages as a more meaningful. Also, players have to actually play the game for it to count. If I just got credit for every forced win I had in my hand, I'd win more games because I miss forced wins like all the time. That just can't be captured in a percentage.

Sure, if players want to agree on some percentage of a win, I guess that can be allowed as long is nobody is trying to game the system. It doesn't break the league format so sure, why not? But I don't think it should be encouraged, I don't think it should be anything other than a last resort. If it were up to me, I'd be struggling over whether or not to mention it at all.
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pubby

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 12:01:24 am »
0

Is recovering the game state not an option? You can replay the same kingdom and spend the first 20 turns buying the exact cards you had in your deck previously. It is time consuming, but so is starting a whole new game or arguing with moderators over your assumed win %.
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 12:07:17 am »
+1

Is recovering the game state not an option? You can replay the same kingdom and spend the first 20 turns buying the exact cards you had in your deck previously. It is time consuming, but so is starting a whole new game or arguing with moderators over your assumed win %.

shuffling will change.
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 12:18:29 pm »
+1

1) I don't think it should matter who disconnects. We are all on the honor system not to intentionally disconnect, and assuming we all follow that there is no reason to assign different outcomes depending on who disconnected.
I'm ok with that.

2) I'm not a huge fan of allowing there to be fractional wins. Everything is cleaner if all game results are either win, lose, or tie. If it is decided this is necessary, that's alright. But I think we can avoid being too unfair with win, lose, and replay being the only options. >75% chance of winning, you win. 25-75% chance of winning, replay. <25% chance of winning, you lose. In this way nobody can be given or robbed of more than .25 game points, and on average just .125.
I'm not a huge fan of allowing fractional wins either. But I do see them as a necessary evil until goko actually implements a reconnect.
Have a look at the interrupted game between SCSN and Mic Qsenoch. SCSN is about to KC his scavenger, buy his 3rd KC, set up his next turn. Mic is about to have a dead turn and a good chance some more will follow.
SCSN has a clear lead here, but the game is young and KC games without trashing, scheme or wharf are always a bit random.
I can totally understand SCSN not wanting to just replay this, and I can also totally understand MicQ not wanting to just resign this.

3) However, some points are worth more than others. Sometimes a tie just as good as a win in the end, but a loss much worse than a tie, or vice-versa. This can throw a wrench into how fair the system ends up being. Similar problems show up if we allow fractional game points (beyond .5 for a tie). If there is only one disconnected game in a division, there is no difference between .01 and .49, if we convert percentage into points. That is a much larger problem, in my opinion.
Well you're overdoing it a bit because I suggested .01 is a loss and .49 is a replay but yes there is a point to be made. .11 and .39 shouldn't be the same either.

->

As a sort of middle of the road compromise I now suggest asking people to choose between
{almost hopeless, clearly behind, undecided, clearly ahead, almost always winning}

and then convert them into the results
{loss, 0.25-0.75, replay, 0.75-0.25, win}
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SCSN

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 12:35:10 pm »
0

Have a look at the interrupted game between SCSN and Mic Qsenoch. SCSN is about to KC his scavenger, buy his 3rd KC, set up his next turn. Mic is about to have a dead turn and a good chance some more will follow.
SCSN has a clear lead here, but the game is young and KC games without trashing, scheme or wharf are always a bit random.

There was actually a way to always start by discarding (via Warehouse or HT) 2 KCs and an HG, and then topdecking them with a KC'ed Scavenger, but I was 2-3 more good turns away from setting up the unstoppable chain.

Quote
As a sort of middle of the road compromise I now suggest asking people to choose between
{almost hopeless, clearly behind, undecided, clearly ahead, almost always winning}

and then convert them into the results
{loss, 0.25-0.75, replay, 0.75-0.25, win}

I actually like the fractional points and have yet to read a good argument to restrict the players' freedom in this, but regardless of whether one exists or not this strikes me as a perfectly fine compromise.
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AdamH

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 12:57:29 pm »
+5

I actually like the fractional points and have yet to read a good argument to restrict the players' freedom in this, but regardless of whether one exists or not this strikes me as a perfectly fine compromise.

So this isn't water-tight (I think doing it should be allowed) but I can make an argument for why I think it should be at least discouraged.

Coming up with a number for who is ahead is subjective. I'm going to assume this, partially because I believe it's true (I'm open to arguments that try to prove me wrong here) but I already talked about it in a previous post.

So now we've allowed there to be a way that both players can agree on some level of subjectivity and decide on a game result without playing a full game of Dominion. Now it certainly doesn't feel good because we're not testing players' skill in playing Dominion here, but I guess that went out the window when Goko crashed. Sigh.

But let's take this to the other extreme. Two people in a division don't feel like actually playing their match, so they look at their current position on the leaderboard, somehow agree on a way to calculate how many games the leaderboard thinks each would win, then reports that as a result. Clearly this is terrible and shouldn't be allowed. It's subjective and defeats the whole purpose of the league.

But how much Dominion to you say is OK to play before you can allow this? You have a 5/2 split on a board where it's amazing and I don't? I disconnect. You don't want to give up your advantage, so we give you 0.8 points and I'll take 0.2. This is also terrible. X turns into the game? X turns from the end of the game? Super-subjective, and we can't write rules like this; they're nearly impossible to follow.

So where do you draw the line on this and prevent a slippery-slope fallacy? The only rational thing I can think of is to make it so that you only do this when both players can't agree on a (win/loss/replay) result and tried their hardest to do so. Only as a last resort, because those other things put the most stock on Dominion play and the least stock on subjective measures, even if they're agreed upon.

Another (only partially related) point is that I, as a moderator, don't feel comfortable assigning a percentage to any game of Dominion. I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to make a subjective call that affects other people in the league. Of course it will probably come up, but what we do is make this a last resort and so I can hide behind my rule of "only if you can't agree will I do this, and I have full authority over it so if you don't like it, DWI" and then I get to feel better about myself. I think this is already done nicely in the rules as they are now, but it's another reason why I don't want to encourage the use of these percents as anything other than a last resort.
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liopoil

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 03:41:47 pm »
0

Problems with fractional wins: What Adam said, and that there is no difference between .11 and .39, or wherever we draw the borders. Similarly .25 is not really directly between 0 and .5, and also is just not as elegant, IMO. But you raise a good point with that SCSN-Mic Qsenoch game Stef... what to do when the game appears to be very close to the .25-.75 border? Rather than just record that result, here is my suggestion:

In that case, SCSN is winning with roughly a 75% chance. They play two more games, each going first once, and if SCSN wins either one, record that game as a win for SCSN. If Mic wins both, it is a win for Mic. Maybe throw out ties, I don't know. Keep the original game as counting as a first player start for whoever went first.

Now there are the same categories that Stef suggested, but instead of recording .25-.75, the game is resolved to either a win or loss, but giving the leading player a 75% chance of winning that game overall. The downside is that two more games of Dominion need to be played (or only one if SCSN wins the first), but we like Dominion, right?
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Polk5440

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 07:17:05 pm »
+1

Reasons not to award fractional points to the highest precision:

Awarding fractional points advantages players who are better at early/mid-game play over players who are good at late game play. It's not just shuffle luck that determines who wins at the end.

In line with what Adam is saying, peoples' guesses at win percentages are very, very rough.  Thus, the "agreed upon" fractional point will rely very heavily on who bargains better or yells the loudest.

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Voltaire

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 07:21:57 pm »
+3

Above all, simplicity should be valued.
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SCSN

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 08:12:27 pm »
+1

But let's take this to the other extreme. Two people in a division don't feel like actually playing their match, so they look at their current position on the leaderboard, somehow agree on a way to calculate how many games the leaderboard thinks each would win, then reports that as a result. Clearly this is terrible and shouldn't be allowed. It's subjective and defeats the whole purpose of the league.

Obviously this shouldn't replace people actually playing their games from the start and no one is arguing for that. If people wanted though, they could already do this right now, as there's no obligation to post game logs and far from everyone is streaming, so whatever is decided here is not going to affect that.

If you're not actually afraid of no one playing their games anymore I'm not really sure why you're bringing this up, except perhaps as some sort of reductio ad absurbum, but the fact that consuming copious amounts of polonium isn't the healthiest thing to do doesn't mean that a moderate amount of radiation can't be life-saving when treating cancer. So let's stay nuanced and keep the scope of the discussion limited to the sort of situations that are likely to come up in practice and not invoke outlandish scenarios and wild fears.

Quote
The only rational thing I can think of is to make it so that you only do this when both players can't agree on a (win/loss/replay) result and tried their hardest to do so. Only as a last resort

Of course, no one is arguing here for preserving a 95-5 or 45-55, but if you both agree the equities are about 20-30 for one player, neither is going to agree to a loss or a replay no matter how hard you try.

Quote
But how much Dominion to you say is OK to play before you can allow this? You have a 5/2 split on a board where it's amazing and I don't? I disconnect. You don't want to give up your advantage, so we give you 0.8 points and I'll take 0.2. This is also terrible. X turns into the game? X turns from the end of the game? Super-subjective, and we can't write rules like this; they're nearly impossible to follow.

Just leave if it up to the players. People are in the league because they like to play, so their bias will naturally be towards playing. They'll only stray from that if they think the game can't be resumed in a fair manner, in which case I don't think you want to force them into doing it anyway.

Quote
Another (only partially related) point is that I, as a moderator, don't feel comfortable assigning a percentage to any game of Dominion. I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to make a subjective call that affects other people in the league. Of course it will probably come up, but what we do is make this a last resort and so I can hide behind my rule of "only if you can't agree will I do this, and I have full authority over it so if you don't like it, DWI" and then I get to feel better about myself. I think this is already done nicely in the rules as they are now, but it's another reason why I don't want to encourage the use of these percents as anything other than a last resort.

I understand your reluctance and I don't think you should feel obliged to take this upon you if you don't want to. In fact if no one else does either I'd be happy to volunteer for the job. It sounds sort of interesting actually, I don't mind making potentially unpopular decisions, and if someone is going to hate me because he thinks I shafted him on 10% equity, then the only way I'm going to lose sleep over that is because I'm laughing too hard!

Edit: Just as an example of how fair & balanced I'd be: whenever one of the parties involved goes by the name of "Mic Qsenoch", he'd automatically be awarded 0 points!

Another way to prevent too much time spent on mediation is to introduce a penalty: whenever mediation is requested only 0.8 point will be divided between the players rather than the original 1. This way players have a strong incentive to sort things out on their own.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:37:28 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 08:29:17 pm »
+6

Above all, simplicity should be valued.

I agree, all disputed results between any players should just be counted as a win for my total.
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SCSN

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2015, 08:34:00 pm »
0

Problems with fractional wins: What Adam said, and that there is no difference between .11 and .39, or wherever we draw the borders.

That's just not true. Mic currently has an uneven number of ties, so that we're both at something.75 points, this wouldn't be the case had we settled on any other numbers.

Quote
Rather than just record that result, here is my suggestion:

In that case, SCSN is winning with roughly a 75% chance. They play two more games, each going first once, and if SCSN wins either one, record that game as a win for SCSN. If Mic wins both, it is a win for Mic. Maybe throw out ties, I don't know. Keep the original game as counting as a first player start for whoever went first.

Now there are the same categories that Stef suggested, but instead of recording .25-.75, the game is resolved to either a win or loss, but giving the leading player a 75% chance of winning that game overall. The downside is that two more games of Dominion need to be played (or only one if SCSN wins the first), but we like Dominion, right?

In principle this would be fine as well, in practice it would often mean (particularly when playing a slower opponent) delaying part of the session to a later moment. Which can work, but it may not always be the most desirable solution, hence I'd like to have the freedom and flexibility to just come up with a solution both me and my opponent are happy with.
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SCSN

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2015, 08:34:17 pm »
0

Reasons not to award fractional points to the highest precision:

Awarding fractional points advantages players who are better at early/mid-game play over players who are good at late game play. It's not just shuffle luck that determines who wins at the end.

It doesn't. You obviously take into account your own and your opponent's skills when estimating your win chances.

Quote
In line with what Adam is saying, peoples' guesses at win percentages are very, very rough.

They are less rough than "win, replay, loss" by a very wide margin, which is the only thing that matters.

Quote
Thus, the "agreed upon" fractional point will rely very heavily on who bargains better or yells the loudest.

Except that it doesn't. I've had two fractional results so far, one in the league against Mic and one in the World Cup against Rabid. In both cases I just asked for their estimate, thought it looked fair and agreed to it.

Now two examples is not a lot, but it's infinitely more than I know of fractional points leading to cunning bargaining exchanges or loud yelling, so I would really appreciate it if people actually looked at reality instead of just generating some fact-free rhetoric.

In fact, the only controversy involving loud yelling that I remember was of a case of people sticking to this "loss or replay" dichotomy, it might even have sparked this very debate ;)
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2015, 08:34:47 pm »
0

As a sort of middle of the road compromise I now suggest asking people to choose between
{almost hopeless, clearly behind, undecided, clearly ahead, almost always winning}

and then convert them into the results
{loss, 0.25-0.75, replay, 0.75-0.25, win}

This would be my preferred solution.
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SCSN

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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2015, 08:38:29 pm »
+2

Above all, simplicity should be valued.

I agree, all disputed results between any players should just be counted as a win for my total.

I'm on board with giving this man an outside chance to not demote.
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2015, 08:41:05 pm »
+3

I think that in this discussion we should bear in mind that less experienced players might be much worse at estimating win percentage. Sure SCSN and Mic might be able to figure out a pretty good estimate, but I don't think that's necessarily true for everyone.
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Re: Handling disconnects
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2015, 08:43:00 pm »
+3

Above all, simplicity should be valued.

Above all, fairness should be valued.

(while keeping in mind the restriction that it shouldn't get so complicated it makes people uncomfortable)
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