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Author Topic: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?  (Read 11869 times)

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drsteelhammer

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Hey guys,

as you know adventures is coming out and a lot of us are psyched to get to know the knew cards and experiencing games with them. But since goko isn't bringing them out anytime soon as they said, and the average faith of the community in being able to play them on here in 2015 is pretty slim there must be another way. I' m sure a lot of us (like me) won't be able to play irl anytime soon with the cards. They are not coming out in my country for example and even if I wouldn't have an opportunity to play much anyway. That sucks and I'm sure others feel the same way. Is there another way for us to learn about the cards together besides simply reading what they do? Someone suggested streaming irl games with the cards, which would be pretty cool, any volunteers? :P.

Or do you have any ideas what we can do on here till the cards are available to play online?
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pacovf

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 08:02:51 pm »
+3

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 08:09:49 pm »
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I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 09:45:27 pm »
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I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

It's possible to Skype play and stream the Skype. The problem is trying to show the play area and everything. I have Skyped play before, so I know of these issues.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 09:48:25 pm »
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I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

It's possible to Skype play and stream the Skype. The problem is trying to show the play area and everything. I have Skyped play before, so I know of these issues.

Yeah, obviously it won't be ideal. I feel like with enough commentary, a seasoned Dominion player (ie the sort of person who is excited enough about Adventures to watch a video about it) will be able to follow pretty well without being able to see the cards properly. Obviously someone would have to be up for doing it, but I for one would watch and enjoy it.
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werothegreat

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 10:05:38 pm »
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I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

It's possible to Skype play and stream the Skype. The problem is trying to show the play area and everything. I have Skyped play before, so I know of these issues.

I've actually done this with Beyond Awesome and it worked pretty well.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 12:41:25 am »
+1

Young Nick and I played on Skype without any visuals at all, just verbally quoting the game log.  You mostly only really need to know what was gained.  It's imperfect but works okish.
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dondon151

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 12:55:29 am »
+5

#bringbackiso
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2015, 02:42:31 am »
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I can post about IRL games for people to speculate on.
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AdamH

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2015, 07:38:51 am »
0

I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

I mean, there are a lot of technical issues with recording an IRL game. I mean a lot of them. I can try it but I can pretty much guarantee you that the quality of this video will be much, much worse than anything I've ever put out, and this includes my very first videos which were pretty bad.

I only have one video camera and I'm not going to go buy another one, so what do you put it on? Just the play area? That's a little bit rough to watch. Do you put it over my shoulder in an attempt to see both my hand and my play area? It's hard to see the supply now.

There's no easy way to track supply piles, no point counter, if you miss something then it's gone forever because there's no game log, and you're more likely to miss something. Then there's audio. You certainly don't want other people in the same room because it's going to be hard enough to hear people anyways, but it's hard for me to just invite one person over to play Dominion, usually people are more inclined to come over when there are more people and more options of games to play. Maybe I could post-commentate the games and just not use audio, but that seems like the quality would go down even more.

Also, it's hard for me to be motivated to put in work to improve this format when just streaming the computer interface is so much better.

But I guess I can give it a try. If people want to try watching it I suppose I can try making it...
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Voltaire

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2015, 11:02:02 am »
+1

I think write-ups will be pretty much the only way to go. Unless AdamH can pull a rabbit out of his hat, in which case, more power to him.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2015, 11:06:58 am »
+1

I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

I mean, there are a lot of technical issues with recording an IRL game. I mean a lot of them. I can try it but I can pretty much guarantee you that the quality of this video will be much, much worse than anything I've ever put out, and this includes my very first videos which were pretty bad.

I only have one video camera and I'm not going to go buy another one, so what do you put it on? Just the play area? That's a little bit rough to watch. Do you put it over my shoulder in an attempt to see both my hand and my play area? It's hard to see the supply now.

There's no easy way to track supply piles, no point counter, if you miss something then it's gone forever because there's no game log, and you're more likely to miss something. Then there's audio. You certainly don't want other people in the same room because it's going to be hard enough to hear people anyways, but it's hard for me to just invite one person over to play Dominion, usually people are more inclined to come over when there are more people and more options of games to play. Maybe I could post-commentate the games and just not use audio, but that seems like the quality would go down even more.

Also, it's hard for me to be motivated to put in work to improve this format when just streaming the computer interface is so much better.

But I guess I can give it a try. If people want to try watching it I suppose I can try making it...

I'm not asking you to do it, and I'm certainly not asking anyone to produce anything they believe is sub-par just so those who can't get a hold of it as soon as others can get an Adventures fix. All I'm saying is that if someone did produce something, I would watch it.

For example, while a joke, this video was thoroughly enjoyable and easy enough to follow fairly well if you have a decent understanding of Dominion.

So yeah, definitely don't do anything just because of me, and if it's too hard to work out or you're not motivated to do it, you obviously shouldn't. But if someone did make something, I for one, and I'm guessing a bunch of others, am excited enough about Adventures that simply a video of people experiencing it would be worth watching.
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AdamH

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2015, 11:38:05 am »
+2

Hey I'm willing to try anything. If that's what people want to watch, then I'll probably do it.

It's almost certainly worth trying at least once, I suppose; I just don't want people to get their hopes up and be disappointed.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2015, 12:05:03 pm »
+1

I think it was Adam who said that IRL Dominion videos wouldn't work very well, but I'd watch Adventures videos.

I mean, there are a lot of technical issues with recording an IRL game. I mean a lot of them. I can try it but I can pretty much guarantee you that the quality of this video will be much, much worse than anything I've ever put out, and this includes my very first videos which were pretty bad.

I only have one video camera and I'm not going to go buy another one, so what do you put it on? Just the play area? That's a little bit rough to watch. Do you put it over my shoulder in an attempt to see both my hand and my play area? It's hard to see the supply now.

There's no easy way to track supply piles, no point counter, if you miss something then it's gone forever because there's no game log, and you're more likely to miss something. Then there's audio. You certainly don't want other people in the same room because it's going to be hard enough to hear people anyways, but it's hard for me to just invite one person over to play Dominion, usually people are more inclined to come over when there are more people and more options of games to play. Maybe I could post-commentate the games and just not use audio, but that seems like the quality would go down even more.

Also, it's hard for me to be motivated to put in work to improve this format when just streaming the computer interface is so much better.

But I guess I can give it a try. If people want to try watching it I suppose I can try making it...


Like Jimmmmm said, if you don't wanna do it, don't feel forced to.

However, I think your concerns aren't that troubling for the first experience with new cards. Not a 2player game? Great, more players might have several ideas how to play these new cards. No supply pile counter? I don't mind a missed forced win from you guys, I could just watch your match against WW ;) (don't hate me pls). No point counter? Again, I'm ok with that for the same reason. Audio? Background noise might not be the best thing but I wouldn't mind it too much. The camera position should also not be a problem, the play area is the most important thing, in my opinion. I can see most of your strategy from there and you could just comment on how you didn't play the swamped hag because you played your haunted woods last turn and everybody has 5green cards in their hands anyway, or something along those lines.

Again, don't feel obliged to do that kind of thing, but I think the  response from here would be positive even though the production quality might be less than online videos.
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AdamH

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2015, 12:12:13 pm »
+1

I don't mind a missed forced win from you guys, I could just watch your match against WW ;)

+1 just for this  ;)
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 02:16:11 pm »
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I don't understand why this thread was moved here.

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 02:24:12 pm »
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Isn't it about playing Dominion online?  I'm sort of on the fence.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 03:29:42 pm »
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Isn't it about playing Dominion online?  I'm sort of on the fence.

It's about the things we can do when we can't play Dominion Online. So while it's conceptually related, none of the discussion taking place here is directly about Dominion Online itself.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 05:42:38 pm »
+2

Isn't it about playing Dominion online?  I'm sort of on the fence.

It's about the things we can do when we can't play Dominion Online. So while it's conceptually related, none of the discussion taking place here is directly about Dominion Online itself.
I'd say it should be in the Adventures subforum, since it's about Adventures.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 09:10:51 pm »
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Okay, so I am going waaaaay out on a limb here, but maybe this could be made to work.

It would indeed be great to have online streaming from the beginning, but I am guessing it does look like months before we will have that. If you don't have streaming, I would claim the next best thing (and in some cases, a better thing) is having a valid game log that can be posted/archived on line and would be searchable, like the beautiful gokosalvager tools we have now.

If this were a game like chess, you could just have the two players notate the moves as played, make sure the two versions are identical, reconcile if necessary, upload and submit. But this is dominion...where people sometimes make dozens of "moves" per turn, and manually notating would be a royal pain.

But, that said: we've got supercomputers that we usually call "smart phones". IRL, most of us play with cards in sleeves. In that situation, you could imagine printing out many, many sheets of paper with N sets of 10 QR codes per page that you could cut out, slip into sleeves of the appropriate cards, and then your smartphone could identify every card if you had an app that could implement a qr_read_domcard() function. (For bonus points, you could implement something that would read the actual card face, but I'm not sure it's necessary.) Then you can write a "simple" (he says) dominion logging app that had a few buttons labeled "draw", "play", "discard", "trash", "buy", "gain", "pass", "looks at", "places on deck", "shuffles" and maybe stuff I'm not thinking of, plus a turn counter. And I hope you see where this is going.

At the beginning of the game, the two players set up a game on the server using the app, scans in the kingdom, and then each player's turn (and their off-turn) can be notated by doing all of the things they do, prefaced by hitting the appropriate button. So at the start of turn 1, Player one hits "play", scans and plays 4 coppers, hits "buy", picks up a card, scans it, and puts it in the discard, etc. The app records all of those actions, together with the turn and time stamp, and at the end of the game, the two players hit "submit" and the server reconciles the two logs and generates a real log, that would be searchable, etc., on goko salavager.

Yeah, this is kind of crazy. But I'm pretty sure it's doable, and since you are basically constrained to IRL situations, and are just automatically generating logs, it shouldn't infringe on anybody's outside rights to run the game server. Needless to say, it's a bit awkward, and nobody would use it much after Goko had caught up, but until then, it could be interesting.

Just a thought.
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2015, 04:06:45 pm »
+1

I think the question of how to stream IRL dominion is a very interesting one. 

The biggest issue, as discussed, is that people watching the stream can't tell what is going on.  Of the many things that are missing we have pile counts, score tracking, and the game log.  If there was a way to generate these as the game was played, I think we could have a watchable stream. I also believe that having these things would enable playing "IRL" over Skype.  I think if it is possible, being able to have a watchable stream of remote matches between forum members is worth building such a system for.

So is this possible?  My ideas parallel Throwaway_bicycling's post a bit, but I don't think scanning cards is in the realm of feasibility.  The system needs to require minimal setup beyond owning cards to play your deck with.  It also needs to add very little overhead to playing Dominion because you are already sacrificing a lot of speed by playing with physical cards instead of digital ones.

I imagine a game server that can load up a kingdom, and allow the two players to click on the cards to indicate what plays they have made.  The server would be able to display pile counts, point counters, and a game log with very few actual game mechanics programmed in. The hope would be this can be implemented quickly by relying on the players for most of the game complexity.  Some things (like Possession) are probably beyond the capabilities of such a system, but I feel like most things could be done.

I attempted to throw together a proof of concept, but I unsurprisingly overestimated how much I could get done in 5 hours on a Saturday.  Also, my experience is embedded, so this web stuff is way out of my territory.  This is probably not feasible, and I am totally insane, but if anyone thinks this has a chance of working (including someone with enough web experience to set up a backend), I'd be interested in helping work on a project.

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2015, 04:41:24 pm »
+2

I think coding up a Dominion interface is getting dangerously close to stepping on MF's toes.

If you're looking for general card game software, you can look into Magic Workstation/Cockatrice/OCTGN. These are all originally unofficial MtG apps, but they're all general purpose and come with their own server/lobby system. You have to manually update the board state whenever you make an action, so it's somewhat annoying. I've tried playing Dominion on it before and it does work, but you have to do things like manually create your start deck every game, and create new copies of cards whenever you want to gain one. (Note this was how Prismata was originally playtested, so people have done this sort of thing before.)

It's also much more likely to be legal. It's similar to how emulators are legal, but using ROMs of games you don't own is not.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:43:10 pm by Titandrake »
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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2015, 04:55:32 pm »
+4

The general idea is to not implement game mechanics, or even shuffling.  The main purpose would be to create a simple interface that allows players to easily create a game log, and show game state as they play IRL or remotely with two separate copies of cards. If something like this is feasible, I would absolutely want to clear it with Donald/RGG(/MF?) before implementing things. 

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2015, 07:02:07 pm »
0


So is this possible?  My ideas parallel Throwaway_bicycling's post a bit, but I don't think scanning cards is in the realm of feasibility.  The system needs to require minimal setup beyond owning cards to play your deck with.  It also needs to add very little overhead to playing Dominion because you are already sacrificing a lot of speed by playing with physical cards instead of digital ones.


Fair enough. Entry via pushing buttons and typing (maybe with some kind of autocomplete?) would be easier, and could be done on a website, skipping over the issues of which smart phone platform to target, etc.

Quote
I imagine a game server that can load up a kingdom, and allow the two players to click on the cards to indicate what plays they have made.  The server would be able to display pile counts, point counters, and a game log with very few actual game mechanics programmed in.

I think to generate logs, you don't even have to go that far; just let people click "Play", then enter cards, click "draw" if it draws, etc.

But...all this said, it might be more effort than it is worth. I was sketching out some more stuff last night, and, to be honest, there are lots of ways this could go wrong and generate garbage-y logs. It might be just easier to do this by stitching together a he played/she played stream from cell phone or web cam streams of a player's hand and what is played. JSH is going to stream his impressions of cards tonight, and I'm interested in seeing what that looked like (missed WW's stream earlier today). Low tech might just be good enough. Even video streams of game post mortems might be enough.

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Re: How do we deal with Adventures coming out, as an online community?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2015, 07:29:27 pm »
0

I am going live with that now, by the way.
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