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Author Topic: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?  (Read 7635 times)

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Elanchana

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Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« on: April 14, 2015, 09:19:23 am »
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Scrying Pool, Forager, Fortune Teller, Monument, Scout, Throne Room, Walled Village, Minion, Trading Post, Altar
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My opponent and I each went for different draw and different trashing. I did Scrying Pools and Forager, they did Minions and Trading Post. I thought I had the better deck, but I lost........ the frick?

Since I was going for Pools, I couldn't use Trading Post as my trashing because Silver would be an extra non-action card I'd have to get through. So I got payload from the various $2-giving actions on the board. My opponent, meanwhile, opened Monument, got terminal trashing, didn't get a single village or +Buy, and pulled off a Minion deck that beat my Pool engine.

I can only see one mistake that I made, which was to not get a second Forager. But would it have made that much difference? Did I green too late? I find it hard to believe that Minion is actually better than Pool on that board.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 09:32:22 am »
+4

You are right about the 2nd Forager. Also, don't spend your first $4 on a Walled Village when you have no terminals in your deck. Don't buy Minions, many of your early Walled Villages should be Throne Rooms.

But the big thing is: don't buy any Provinces unless it is the last one and you are winning the game. You can easily build a deck here that plays bunches of Monuments a turn and there's no need to get any green at all.

The exception to "no greening" will be a scramble for points if a 3 pile is looming, but that is never the case in your game.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 09:34:46 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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DG

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 09:45:28 am »
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Don't look at what your opponent did. You can sharpen up your own play. You could have planned an endgame with scrying pools and throned monuments. That plan would actually change most of your buys except the scrying pools.
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Elanchana

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 09:45:53 am »
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Ooooh good point about the Throne Rooms. I'll be honest here - the only reason I didn't get any is because I wasn't sure what I would use them on. Would the goal then be to play Village-TR-TR-2xMonument-TR-TR-2xMonument for a total of 8 points per turn?
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 09:50:31 am »
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Ooooh good point about the Throne Rooms. I'll be honest here - the only reason I didn't get any is because I wasn't sure what I would use them on. Would the goal then be to play Village-TR-TR-2xMonument-TR-TR-2xMonument for a total of 8 points per turn?

No, because you don't need the Village for TR-TR-TR-TR-4x Monument and there's also no reason to stop at 8 points per turn when you could get a lot more.
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pubby

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 09:50:36 am »
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You might not even need second forager if you go heavy on throne rooms because you can throne foragers.

Also, once you start drawing your deck consider attacking your opponent with minion every turn. You can manipulate them into 3 card hands with another bad card on their deck.
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2015, 09:51:11 am »
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Ooooh good point about the Throne Rooms. I'll be honest here - the only reason I didn't get any is because I wasn't sure what I would use them on. Would the goal then be to play Village-TR-TR-2xMonument-TR-TR-2xMonument for a total of 8 points per turn?

Early on, you can Throne Scrying Pools and Foragers when appropriate to keep drawing and trashing. You should quickly reach a game state where a single play of Scrying Pool draws your entire deck. Villages can smooth you out but won't even be strictly necessary. You can just draw your whole deck with a single Scrying Pool and then play Throne Throne Throne Throne Monument Monument Monument Monment whatever.
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Awaclus

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 09:53:55 am »
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You might not even need second forager if you go heavy on throne rooms because you can throne foragers.

I would get the second Forager, you get the engine working much faster that way. You have time to get the payload later.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 09:54:03 am »
+1

Since I was going for Pools, I couldn't use Trading Post as my trashing because Silver would be an extra non-action card I'd have to get through.
Well, it's not exactly clear to me what you're saying here. You certainly CAN use Trading Post anyway - the reason you don't want to here is just that Forager is better - it's non-terminal, a decent 3, and there are things you'd like to do on 4 (and to some extent 5). But having silver as an extra card to get through... I mean, yes, it is, but on the other hand, you trashed 2 to start. Trash 2, up 1 is basically equivalent to trash 1.

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So I got payload from the various $2-giving actions on the board. My opponent, meanwhile, opened Monument, got terminal trashing, didn't get a single village or +Buy, and pulled off a Minion deck that beat my Pool engine.

This is actually just wrong. He got a forager on turn 2. That's a +buy card. And while he got a terminal trasher, he got as many non-terminal trashers as you. As for villages, not only did he start with Necropolis, he got 3 Throne Rooms. So he has Villages.


The biggest things I see here are 1. Based on what you wrote, you seem to have written off what your opponent did as being bad, which leads to you underestimating what he did, and not paying attention to him. What he did isn't THAT different from what you did, really. 2. I want to say that Fortune Teller is not a good card here. It makes $2, but it's terminal, and the attack does very little against an opponent who is trashing and a you who have scrying pool anyway. 3. You don't have a clear goal as to what you're building to. You have this vague, you are getting terminal silvers. For what? To buy provinces, I guess. That isn't actually all that strong? You should be aiming to play lots of Monuments. And most of all (related to this), 4. You don't build enough. Getting more monuments (and throne rooms to help you play them) is a thing you want to do here. If you can do that early enough, it's going to score more points for you than the green card anyway, while being better for your deck. Also, greening as early as you do not only hurts your deck, it actually mitigates the weakness of a minion deck anyway, that it can't handle bloat very well.


Now, I don't want to say, you got completely crushed or played really badly or much worse than your opponent or anything like that. But there are several little ways you could have improved, and those things really can add up, and most of all, what he did isn't so much worse anyway.


PPE: and lots of responses already.

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2015, 10:10:49 am »
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To sum up what everyone said here: on boards where VP chip cards appear, ask yourself if there is a way to play those cards multiple times per turn. On this board, the answer is yes. Pool draws your entire deck. Throne Room allows massive Monuments plays. The thing about VP chips is that they allow you to hold off greening for as long as possible which is what an engine wants anyway. When playing an engine, whenever you buy Province, you are just helping your opponent end the game sooner. Monument allows you to indefinitely prolong the game and end it on your terms i.e. three-piling, or buying up the last provinces when your opponent has no hope of winning.
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DG

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 10:57:18 am »
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You don't need a second trashing card here. Ultimately, the limit on your deck construction is the number of times you can play a forager for an extra buy. Even if you feel that the benefits of trashing outweigh the endgame benefits of extra buys, there is still the opportunity cost of buying the trashing card. You could have bought something else for positive benefit instead.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 11:10:37 am »
+2

You don't need a second trashing card here. Ultimately, the limit on your deck construction is the number of times you can play a forager for an extra buy. Even if you feel that the benefits of trashing outweigh the endgame benefits of extra buys, there is still the opportunity cost of buying the trashing card. You could have bought something else for positive benefit instead.

You probably do want the 2nd Forager, but sure you can get along without it as well. There's no reason not to trash aggressively because the Forager doesn't need fuel, you can play out your entire deck and then Throne a Forager to have 3 buys a turn.

edit: the times when you skip the 2nd Forager are when you just get enough Throne Rooms early to play it twice a bunch anyway.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 11:13:49 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Elanchana

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 11:45:12 am »
+1

Oh whoops, I forgot about my opponent's Forager buy. They trashed so much with Trading Post that it looked like they didn't have/want it.

So it looks like my biggest mistake was not applying (as I've started calling it) "the Stef rule", which is pressuring my opponent to have to gain all the Provinces themself while taking a more reliable lead some other way. I'm not used to thinking of Monuments as all that fast, but with Scrying Pool, Throne Room, and a true cantrip village on the board I should have seen it if I read the board more closely.

I'm probably going to take this board for a spin again later today with the deck goal in mind.
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Robz888

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2015, 12:35:25 pm »
+1

Oh whoops, I forgot about my opponent's Forager buy. They trashed so much with Trading Post that it looked like they didn't have/want it.

So it looks like my biggest mistake was not applying (as I've started calling it) "the Stef rule", which is pressuring my opponent to have to gain all the Provinces themself while taking a more reliable lead some other way. I'm not used to thinking of Monuments as all that fast, but with Scrying Pool, Throne Room, and a true cantrip village on the board I should have seen it if I read the board more closely.

I'm probably going to take this board for a spin again later today with the deck goal in mind.

Always imagine Stef picking up a Duchy and remarking to himself, "Why would I want these expensive Curses?"
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2015, 12:42:19 pm »
+6

Always imagine Stef picking up a Duchy and remarking to himself, "Why would I want these expensive Curses?"

Stef loves Duchies, it's the alt-VP that's always there.
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2015, 02:25:33 pm »
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Sorry this is completely random, but would it ever be good on this board to buy Scouts as Forager fodder because coppers will stop your Scrying Pools from working?
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2015, 02:30:46 pm »
+2

Sorry this is completely random, but would it ever be good on this board to buy Scouts as Forager fodder because coppers will stop your Scrying Pools from working?

Per that logic is fine, Scout is better than copper, huzzah. But no, it's never going to be good on this board to buy scout, because Throne Room, Monument, or Walled Village - and likely all three - will always be better.

Robz888

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2015, 02:40:38 pm »
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Sorry this is completely random, but would it ever be good on this board to buy Scouts as Forager fodder because coppers will stop your Scrying Pools from working?

Per that logic is fine, Scout is better than copper, huzzah. But no, it's never going to be good on this board to buy scout, because Throne Room, Monument, or Walled Village - and likely all three - will always be better.

I have been looking at this Kingdom and trying to come up with a way to make Scout useful... because there actually IS one thing the Scout can do for you here that no other card can: trigger a reshuffle without drawing any cards.

In theory, this could be useful to seed your next hand. You are going to want to eventually have a Treasureless deck, and so a single play of Scrying Pool will draw it all... BUT you can stall if you don't have a Pool in your initial hand. You are going to be buying lots of Thrones and Monuments, so you could get unlucky and get stuck with Throne/Throne/Monument/Monument/Forager, or something. But with Scout, you can trigger a reshuffle so that your next hand has a Pool in it.

Again, only in theory. Because there's no way here, that I can think of, to send a Pool to the discard.
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2015, 02:55:55 pm »
+2

Sorry this is completely random, but would it ever be good on this board to buy Scouts as Forager fodder because coppers will stop your Scrying Pools from working?

What's the point of buying Scout as Forager fodder when you need the +buy from Forager trashing a Scout to buy a Scout?
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2015, 02:56:54 pm »
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Again, only in theory. Because there's no way here, that I can think of, to send a Pool to the discard.

1. Draw your deck.
2. Play Minion for the attack with a hand of 5 Scrying Pools.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Doesn't need Scout though. Poor guy.
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2015, 05:09:25 pm »
+1

Oh whoops, I forgot about my opponent's Forager buy. They trashed so much with Trading Post that it looked like they didn't have/want it.

So it looks like my biggest mistake was not applying (as I've started calling it) "the Stef rule", which is pressuring my opponent to have to gain all the Provinces themself while taking a more reliable lead some other way. I'm not used to thinking of Monuments as all that fast, but with Scrying Pool, Throne Room, and a true cantrip village on the board I should have seen it if I read the board more closely.

I'm probably going to take this board for a spin again later today with the deck goal in mind.

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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2015, 05:12:06 pm »
+4

Sorry this is completely random, but would it ever be good on this board to buy Scouts as Forager fodder because coppers will stop your Scrying Pools from working?

What's the point of buying Scout as Forager fodder when you need the +buy from Forager trashing a Scout to buy a Scout?

Instead, buy the Copper, trash the Copper with an Altar to gain a Scout, and use the Scout for Forager fodder.
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Re: Scrying Pool vs. Minion.... huh?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2015, 07:56:02 pm »
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Again, only in theory. Because there's no way here, that I can think of, to send a Pool to the discard.
Minion can leave cards in your discard pile if you discard more than 4.  You need at least 6 pools to do this so it's harder if the opponent also goes for them, but your ideal turn is:
1. Draw your deck with one pool.
2. Gain lots of points with thrones and monuments.
3. Play a single Minion to discard 5 pools, and no more than four other cards. 

At worst the Minion draws 4 of the 5 pools you discarded, and there is still a pool in the <5 cards remaining in your deck.  Does not use Scout, but does mitigate much of the stall risk if you can reach that deck composition.

Edit: After trying this against a bot, it's not quite perfect.  Your can guarantee that you draw a pool at the end of your turn, but your opponent's Minion can leave you without one.  Yet another reason to hate Minion on principle.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 08:09:53 pm by theblankman »
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