Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7  All

Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 44987 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jamfamsam

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Shuffle iT Username: jamfamsam
  • Respect: +1214
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2016, 02:15:49 am »
0

It's a nice improvement. I think the real questions is, are the women get paid the same as the men?
Logged
"There is no extra charge for awesomeness..."

dedicateddan

  • 2017 Dominion Online Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
  • Shuffle iT Username: dan brooks
  • Respect: +1058
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2016, 03:40:05 am »
+3

Some of them are only getting paid $3!

Logged

Aleimon Thimble

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 698
  • Shuffle iT Username: Aleimon Thimble
  • Respect: +711
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2016, 03:55:06 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.
Logged
[...] The God of heaven has given you Dominion [...] (Daniel 2:37)

navical

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Respect: +268
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2016, 05:15:51 am »
+1

It's a nice improvement. I think the real questions is, are the women get paid the same as the men?

The female-art Base cards cost on average slightly more than the male-art ones:

Male: Bureaucrat 4, Laboratory 5, Militia 4, Mine 5, Moneylender 4, Smithy 4, Vassal 3, total = 29
Female: Artisan 6, Bandit 5, Harbinger 3, Merchant 3, Poacher 4, Sentry 5, Witch 5, total = 31
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3457
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2016, 08:30:53 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2016, 08:57:43 am »
+3

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

It's also... kind of accurate?  Harems would actually include European women.  There's actually a very long and complicated (and certainly horribly misogynistic :( ) history associated with harems.

EDIT: Also, I think this is exactly the card that needs cartoony art so you kind of forget about the actual subject matter, it gives the vibe of "please don't take this too seriously, it's just a game, folks"
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:00:40 am by werothegreat »
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Aleimon Thimble

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 698
  • Shuffle iT Username: Aleimon Thimble
  • Respect: +711
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2016, 09:06:46 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Oh yeah, forgot about Harem.

It's so hard to get feminists to shut up. :P
Logged
[...] The God of heaven has given you Dominion [...] (Daniel 2:37)

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2016, 09:12:25 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Isn't this pigeonholing this a bit?

I literally never looked at art of cards more than half a second. I mean, I remember what cards do based on sort of overall recognition, not even necessarily names.

'I was drawing a lot of cards with that brown card that gives 2 cards and an action' is a typical sentence. (Although, by now, I know the name of laboratory pretty good.)
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3457
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2016, 09:17:13 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Isn't this pigeonholing this a bit?

I literally never looked at art of cards more than half a second. I mean, I remember what cards do based on sort of overall recognition, not even necessarily names.

'I was drawing a lot of cards with that brown card that gives 2 cards and an action' is a typical sentence. (Although, by now, I know the name of laboratory pretty good.)

Sure, not everyone is conscious of or pays attention to the art or card name. That doesn't mean they have no purpose or leave no impression on the user; why even have those attributes if they are actually not used at all by anyone? Clearly some people (that aren't you, I guess?) look at this stuff. Might as well try to suck less.

I don't mean to single out Harem because I remember reading a post where DXV offered to change the name or the art or something but the original artist said no, but it is an example of a problematic element of the media. That doesn't like make Dominion shitty overall or not worth buying or whatever, but it's something to note while we're talking about the portrayal of gender in cards.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

iguanaiguana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 600
  • Shuffle iT Username: iguana iguana
  • Respect: +1044
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2016, 09:26:27 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

It's also... kind of accurate?  Harems would actually include European women.  There's actually a very long and complicated (and certainly horribly misogynistic :( ) history associated with harems.

EDIT: Also, I think this is exactly the card that needs cartoony art so you kind of forget about the actual subject matter, it gives the vibe of "please don't take this too seriously, it's just a game, folks"

I was slightly disappointed that the new version of intrigue didn't include a new name and art for Harem. I mean, it milled great hall.
Logged
Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7861
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2016, 09:37:01 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

The art wouldn't have been made in the context of knowing the art on all the other cards. 
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2016, 09:38:58 am »
+3

There is a thread about Harem and whatever implications it has. I think maybe it was started by me, but I'm not sure. Donald talks about it there too. I would give the link, but I'm on my phone so it's too much hassle. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you didn't discuss the politics of gender and stuff here, because it easily ends with the thread being moved to RSP.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 05:54:11 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2016, 11:11:48 am »
+2

Jeebus, your Intrigue count is wrong. Patrol is female.
Logged

stechafle

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Shuffle iT Username: stechafle
  • Respect: +97
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2016, 12:34:58 pm »
+1

Take a close look at Witch. I think there is a man under that veil. That chin!
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2016, 04:43:18 pm »
0

Jeebus, your Intrigue count is wrong. Patrol is female.

Agh. I actually checked it in large size and confirmed that it's indeed a woman, but then somehow screwed up and put it in the wrong column anyway. Thanks! Corrected.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2016, 04:45:43 pm »
+15

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.
Whatever other line of reasoning the artist may have used, he had to include the white woman; it's Valerie Putman, developer for the main game.

Then, when I suggested renaming Harem in 2E, Jay said no, because Valerie had appreciated being on Harem. Couldn't Valerie be depicted on the new card? I don't know if he asked or what but he did not agree to it.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2017, 08:34:30 pm »
+1

I'm looking at this again. There's a lot of non-kingdom cards coming in Nocturne. Previously I was counting Prizes, Knights, Ruins and split piles as one pile each (so that Princess would be 1/5 of a card, a card from a split pile would be 0.5 card, etc), and also factoring in how often a non-Kingdom card would appear. I've decided that this method isn't tenable anymore.

I'm now basing it more on thematic content. Prizes and Ruins now count as separate cards, but the Knight pile still counts as 1 card, Hermit/Madman is just 1, so is Urchin/Mercenary, and each Traveller line is just 1. Split piles count as 1 pile (considering both images). In Nocturne, Boons and Hexes count as separate cards, Ghost/Haunted Mirror is 1, so is Vampire/Bat, the other non-Kingdom cards each count as separate cards.

This produces the following changes in the current list: Cornucopia changes from 61.7% to 63.6%, Dark Ages changes from 12.4% to 14.0%, and Empires changes from 37.3% to 36.7%. Total female cards go from 31.3% to 31.8% The list is updated.

For now I haven't added any Nocturne cards or the new promo. But factoring in all cards known so far gets us to 45.7% female cards in Nocturne, the highest except for Cornucopia and the revised edition of the base game. New total would be 33.1% female.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:35:41 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 463
  • Respect: +294
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2017, 03:24:09 am »
0

Noting the irony how Adventures doesn't have Adventurers!  :o
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

DemonGenius

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Shuffle iT Username: DemonGenius
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2017, 09:42:45 am »
0

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.
Logged
Beware of the Ludic Fallacy...

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7861
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2017, 10:05:41 am »
0

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2017, 10:49:31 am »
+2

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

Debatable; Witchery is a traditionally feminine career, so it's reasonable that there wouldn't be a gender-based Curse gap.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

ben_king

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 190
  • Shuffle iT Username: ben.king
  • formerly grsbmd
  • Respect: +612
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2017, 10:59:32 am »
+1

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

I figure he would do equal work, but would cost 6.33 coins.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2017, 11:29:53 am »
+3

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

I would consider both Cultist and Torturer to be Witch variants, although obviously Cultist is a variant because it gives out Ruins instead of Curses. Enchantress has a Witch-like theme and does not give out Curses, but is female and an attack.
Logged

DemonGenius

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Shuffle iT Username: DemonGenius
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2017, 08:14:27 am »
0

I would consider both Cultist and Torturer to be Witch variants, although obviously Cultist is a variant because it gives out Ruins instead of Curses. Enchantress has a Witch-like theme and does not give out Curses, but is female and an attack.

Cards that give out Ruins are specifically a Looter type as shown on the bottom of the card. This signifies somebody or a group raiding a village or siphoning resources and leaving (almost) nothing left. The witch cards are not a type, but more of a theme, which is entirely subjective, unlike the Looters. For instance, the Looter type is significant with Courtier, but not any "Witch" cards apart from their Attack-Action-etc types.

I wouldn't count Torturer to be a Witch card since it is possible to play a whole game being tortured without gaining a curse. It is entirely up to the poor tortured soul whether a curse is gained or not. Not so with something like Mountebank or Young Witch, which (ha) only fail to give you curses due to some condition of your current hand, but the same can be said for any other Witch when attacked players hold a Moat.

I thought about including Enchantress as a Witch card as she seems to fit the general theme. However, she doesn't give out curses, so she is just an attack who happens to be female, like Warrior or Dame Josephine. Again, this is entirely subjective  ;)
Logged
Beware of the Ludic Fallacy...

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2017, 12:27:11 pm »
0

Cards that give out Ruins are specifically a Looter type as shown on the bottom of the card. This signifies somebody or a group raiding a village or siponing resources and leaving (almost) nothing left.

So are Witches about theme or about mechanics now? And since when are Death Karts related to looting? The type has a mechanical function, which is placing Ruin cards in the supply, and that's that. Cultist and Torturer are both variants of base's Witch, being stronger in some respect and worse in others. Witch has more in common with Torturer than with e.g. Swamp Hag. Donald X himself described Torturer as "a Witch with a bane of two cards you don't want".

The witch cards are not a type, but more of a theme, which is entirely subjective, unlike the Looters. For instance, the Looter type is significant with Courtier, but not any "Witch" cards apart from their Attack-Action-etc types.
I'm well aware of this and you'll find I never stated Looters in general were related to Witches. You're arguing against a strawman here.

Again, are Witches about a mechanic or about a theme? Should Enchantress be none because there's no junking, or Mountebank because it's not a female magic user? I'm arguing from the mechanical side, and you're free to look at it thematically only, but maybe stay consistent?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7  All
 

Page created in 0.109 seconds with 21 queries.