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Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 11864 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2015, 11:58:10 am »
+5

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

The pre-publication prototype said "they" or "he or she," not entirely consistently. You can see examples on the oldest cards in the outtakes article: http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/06/24/dominion-outtakes/. When I showed the prototype to RGG, it was consistently "they." It turns out this is another thing the game designer does not get to decide.

Jay went with "he" as a common way of trying to look professional. "Edited English" uses "he." I strongly favor "they," since it's not sexist, people have been saying it for hundreds of years, and in conversation people rarely say "he or she." People trying to look professional tend to not want to use "they" though, and generally aren't looking to make a statement about the issue either. Anyway that's a discussion for the Religion, Sex, Politics, and Language Prescriptivism forum.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2015, 12:03:31 pm »
0

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

RGG (Jay) changed it to sound more professional.

A few of the later cards, particularly Soothsayer, are worded so that pronouns aren't even needed ("this player", etc), but with a lot of the Adventures stuff there's just really no way around it.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2015, 02:45:50 pm »
0

If Dominion started using "they" on theoretical future cards, that's an "inconsistency" that would get my full support.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2015, 06:45:18 pm »
+1

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.
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GeoLib

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2015, 06:55:10 pm »
+9

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2015, 10:35:06 pm »
+3

I think they should use "he" and "she" for different specific things, just to mess with people.  "Why does 'she' always get to draw a card, but 'he' has to take a Curse?  It just isn't fair."
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2015, 10:40:07 am »
0

If Dominion started using "they" on theoretical future cards, that's an "inconsistency" that would get my full support.

I think it's okay to discuss the cards or how they could have been here, as long as we don't get into the politics (arguing why the cards should or shouldn't be a certain way).

I think "he or she"/"the player"/"that player" could have worked, maybe it would just be a bit more awkward. But "they" is a bit more difficult.

"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from their hand. If they don't, they gain a Curse." (Young Witch)

"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck [...] If they didn't reveal a Treasure, they gain a Copper." (Noble Brigand)

At least it would seem to change the order of resolution for cards like Spy and Saboteur (but that may not be very important).

XerxesPraelor

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2015, 11:46:47 am »
+1

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:49:00 am by XerxesPraelor »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2015, 12:18:17 pm »
0

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

When you say "for", do you mean 'against'?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2015, 12:43:58 pm »
0

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2015, 12:50:28 pm »
+4

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Can we all just blame Proto-Indo-European for not having a gender-neutral animate third person singular pronoun?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2015, 12:52:32 pm »
+6

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Can we all just blame Proto-Indo-European for not having a gender-neutral animate third person singular pronoun?

Yes.  They're bastards.
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TheOthin

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2015, 12:53:17 pm »
+2

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2015, 01:29:05 pm »
0

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2015, 01:40:04 pm »
0

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.

For practical purposes we have to figure out what the hell the artist intended to draw. If we were counting horses and a card had a badly drawn horse which could also be a dog, the fact that a person is riding it would be a clue to the artist's intention. But actually of course it's possible for a humam being to sit on a dog. It might be a small human being and a big dog. That consideration would not make me put the card as an "unknown".

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2015, 02:06:56 pm »
0

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms

Y'all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2015, 03:59:36 pm »
+2

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms
I would use this as an example of how out-of-our-control this all is. It was clearly better to have separate words for you singular and you plural, and yet the language ended up with the same word. It would be nice to have separate words for they singular and they plural, but we've had singular they for hundreds of years and it shows no signs of vanishing from use.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2015, 04:44:25 pm »
+1

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms
I would use this as an example of how out-of-our-control this all is. It was clearly better to have separate words for you singular and you plural, and yet the language ended up with the same word. It would be nice to have separate words for they singular and they plural, but we've had singular they for hundreds of years and it shows no signs of vanishing from use.

"Thou" actually fell out of use because it was used as an insult.  It was supposed to connote familiarity, which turned into "I have no respect for you."  So everyone just started using "you", which could be used as a singular pronoun to connote respect.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2015, 05:01:32 pm »
0

I think "he or she"/"the player"/"that player" could have worked, maybe it would just be a bit more awkward. But "they" is a bit more difficult.

"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from their hand. If they don't, they gain a Curse." (Young Witch)

"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck [...] If they didn't reveal a Treasure, they gain a Copper." (Noble Brigand)

For Young Witch, I'd try
"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from hand. Each player who didn't gains a Curse."
The ordering might be slightly different from the existing Young Witch. (Doesn't the current ordering interleave revealing banes and gaining curses?)
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2015, 07:39:45 pm »
0

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.

For practical purposes we have to figure out what the hell the artist intended to draw. If we were counting horses and a card had a badly drawn horse which could also be a dog, the fact that a person is riding it would be a clue to the artist's intention. But actually of course it's possible for a humam being to sit on a dog. It might be a small human being and a big dog. That consideration would not make me put the card as an "unknown".
I'm going to acknowledge your post and stop responding further.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2015, 08:46:49 pm »
+5

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Don't worry, they're all made-up words.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2015, 02:20:10 am »
+2

I just noticed this after years of Dominion, but there's an unambiguous female on Expand.

If the square jaw on Thief isn't unambiguously male, the long hair on Expand certainly isn't unambiguously female.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2015, 09:13:36 am »
0

I'm going with female or elf.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2016, 03:57:34 pm »
+3

I lost some interest in this, but thought I should update it for Empires anyway. Here is the whole list.

To be consistent with how I did it for Knights, Prizes and Ruins, each card in a split pile counts as half a card. Cards with "both" count 0.5 male and 0.5 female. As before I'm going with who is being, doing or engaging with whatever's described in the card name.

I was unsure how to catergorize Advance and Tax. Both have men and women, but who is doing the thing? For Tax, the tax collectors are for sure the men, and the couple are just some hapless people getting taxed, so it seems correct to call it a "male" card. For Advance, there is a woman doing something very actively towards a man. But who is advancing? Is she advancing him, or is he advancing? In any case it seems better to call it a "both".

UPDATE 2016-10-06: Updated for base and Intrigue 2nd edition, and Sauna/Avanto promo.
EDIT 2016-10-07: Mistake in Intrigue corrected (Patrol)
UPDATE 2017-10-28: Updated based on new grouping method, see this post. (No new cards.)

BASE
Male: Bureaucrat, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Vassal
Female: Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Witch
Both: Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Library

INTRIGUE
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Replace, Steward, Swindler, Torturer
Female: Courtyard, Diplomat, Harem, Lurker, Patrol
Both: Courtier, Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Herbalist, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble (there are two women in the back, right?)
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit/Madman, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Marauder, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin/Mercenary, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

EMPIRES
Male: Arena(?), Battlefield, Catapult/Rocks, Chariot Race, Conquest, Delve, Dominate, Gladiator/Fortune, Legionary, Overlord, Patrician/Emporium, Royal Blacksmith, Sacrifice, Tax, Triumph, Triumphal Arch
Female: Baths, Donate, Enchantress, Engineer, Farmers' Market, Groundskeeper, Wedding, Windfall
Both: Advance, Annex, Banquet, Basilica, Salt the Earth, Settlers/Bustling Village
Unknown: Encampment/Plunder, Bandit Fort, Wild Hunt

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: Summon
Both: -
Unknown: Sauna

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 139 = 68.7%
FEMALE: 65 = 31.8%

UNKNOWN: 12

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE: 50.0%
INTRIGUE: 34.2%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 28.6%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 63.6%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 14.0%
GUILDS: 20.8%
ADVENTURES: 39.4%
EMPIRES: 36.7%
PROMOS: 20.0%
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:35:06 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2016, 04:21:43 pm »
+5

I did an update of the post based on the new editions of the base game and Intrigue. The old (replaced) cards are not included.

Base goes from 17.9% to 50.0% (and is now only second to Cornucopia as the most woman-filled set).
Intrigue goes from 16.7% to 34.2%.
This changes the total from 27.2% to 31.3% female.

Edit 2016-10-07: Corrected because Patrol was incorrectly counted as male.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 04:40:58 pm by Jeebus »
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