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Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 11863 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 03:14:45 pm »
+2

Unknown: Adventurer

Man, I thought for sure it was a dude!



:))

Cover up those man booblers.  This ain't RSP!
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 03:33:09 pm »
+3

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

popsofctown

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 03:35:15 pm »
+3

I don't really see how this thread is about dominion anyway.  Just merge both threads and throw the whole thing in RSP
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 03:42:34 pm »
+8

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 03:44:04 pm »
+1

Since the dawn of time, whenever I have pictured women, witches, hags, possessors, harems, and most of all bakers were what came to my mind. Now that adventures is coming out I must also imagine guides, messengers, even heroes!! My mind will be very tired indeed. (P.S. How did i do staying on topic??)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 03:47:51 pm by iguanaiguana »
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markusin

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 04:00:18 pm »
+2

The possessor on Possession...is a woman?
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 04:13:25 pm »
+7

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

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blueblimp

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 04:27:28 pm »
+6

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.
Well I'm not him, but a post with stats and discussion trying to improve the accuracy of the stats sounds just fine to me! For example, a reply like this is very much on topic and not RSP at all:
The Messenger is a woman. It's clearer on the big art.

As an analogy, in the thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12964.0, "Probabilities of a hand", the discussion is of exactly that nature. Imagine if it instead had replies like
Quote
Must everything be about math politics?
Quote
Where are all those similar threads calculating the probabilities of revealing a moat, ending the game in 10 turns or less, etc.

I wonder what it is about hands that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to calculate their probabilities...
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 05:11:26 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.

I wrote that already. Just scroll up. (Edit: Ok, it's on page one. The point is, you haven't read the thread.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:12:36 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2015, 11:15:57 am »
+1

Here's the total score for Adventures. 34 out of the 50 cards show people. (Counting each set of 5 Traveller cards as one card for these purposes.)

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

Percentage of female cards: 39.4%

Most of the female cards had been previewed already when I last did the count, so we have a more traditional (for Dominion) distribution than it seemed then. It's a higher percentage of female cards than most other sets, but not close to Cornucopia's 61.7%. Adventures does have the highest number of female cards though (13).

This changes the total Dominion score to:

MALE: 127.1 = 74.7%
FEMALE: 42.9 = 25.3%

UNKNOWN: 9

EDIT 2015-04-28: Changed Royal Carriage to "both", and Raid to "Unknown".
EDIT 2015-05-04: Added Expand (from Prosperity) as a female card, changing the total slightly.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:24:37 pm by Jeebus »
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2015, 11:24:45 am »
0

Royal Carriage has a ladygirl in the carriage.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2015, 01:33:44 pm »
+5

Most of the female cards had been previewed already when I last did the count, so we have a more traditional (for Dominion) distribution than it seemed then. It's a higher percentage of female cards than most other sets, but not close to Cornucopia's 61.7%. Adventures does have the highest number of female cards though (12.5).
I only specified for kingdom cards specifically showing a person. It does better there.
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juffowup

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2015, 10:08:12 pm »
+6

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with the original post assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:09:25 pm by juffowup »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2015, 10:10:08 pm »
0

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with your assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

I'm pretty sure Donald has only specified gender for recent cards (only Adventures maybe?). Sorry, I misunderstood.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:24:05 pm by Jimmmmm »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2015, 10:14:06 pm »
0

Royal Carriage has a ladygirl in the carriage.

Yeah, I know. The question is what represents the Royal Carriage. The driver is a man, so I went by that. It's like if the card was named Taxi and the taxi driver was a man, with a male and a female passenger. But this one is certainly not clear.

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with the original post assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

blueblimp

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 11:08:59 pm »
+1

Here's the total score for Adventures. 34 out of the 50 cards show people. (Counting each set of 5 Traveller cards as one card for these purposes.)

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Raid, Ratcatcher, Raze, Royal Carriage, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Scouting Party

Percentage of female cards: 36.8%

Quibbles:

Raid -- Too much armor to distinguish male vs female. Everybody's going to look the same in that armor. Suggestion: unknown.

Royal Carriage -- Since the passengers put the "royal" in "royal carriage", and the most visible passenger is female, I'd argue this should be classified as both.

Travelling Fair -- The person doing a handstand is plausibly female. Granted, even with that it's still 4 male to 1 female, and the most prominent character is male. But they're all part of the travelling fair. Suggestion: both?
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juffowup

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2015, 12:09:12 am »
+1

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2015, 09:52:54 am »
0

Quibbles:

Raid -- Too much armor to distinguish male vs female. Everybody's going to look the same in that armor. Suggestion: unknown.

Royal Carriage -- Since the passengers put the "royal" in "royal carriage", and the most visible passenger is female, I'd argue this should be classified as both.

Travelling Fair -- The person doing a handstand is plausibly female. Granted, even with that it's still 4 male to 1 female, and the most prominent character is male. But they're all part of the travelling fair. Suggestion: both?

Raid: I admit that here I went by what the intention most likely was. The type of armor and helmet looks like it would be worn by a man. But, since historically there were no female knights in the first place and that didn't stop the Dames of Dark Ages, I guess you can't really say what the gender of this person is either. I'll change it to "unknown" (although I'm 95% sure the artist thought of a man).

Royal Carriage: Ok, I'll change it to "both".

Travelling Fair: One person of unknown gender in the back, and the rest more clearly depicted men? I think I'm keeping this "male".

« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:04:03 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2015, 09:58:03 am »
0

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

GeoLib

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2015, 12:33:58 pm »
+1

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I would say Thief's very square jaw is a weak biological indicator for maleness.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2015, 12:59:38 pm »
+2

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

I've noticed that horses are vastly overrepresented compared to other nonhuman animals.  Though if you group all birds together, they might be doing okay.  Rats too.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2015, 10:39:06 am »
+1

I just noticed this after years of Dominion, but there's an unambiguous female on Expand.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2015, 11:30:38 am »
0

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.


_________________________________________________________________

Royal Carriage should be female because clearly the female is the one who "called" the Royal Carriage and will get to play her action card an additional time.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2015, 11:53:07 am »
+5

I'm really glad that there's more female representation in Adventures. Even though the ratio is not that much higher, I think the inclusion of a female ARC CHARACTER (who I just absolutely love as seen by my avatar), and one in a position of power at that, is a big step for the female gaming community. Plus Alayna Lemmer is so talented it hurts.

What I'm a bit worried about, though, is the abundance of male pronouns in the card descriptions. "Each other player takes his -$1 token", "reveals the top card of his deck", "he gains a Curse", etc. This is true on cards from other sets too but somehow it hasn't been so apparent as in Adventures. DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2015, 11:56:49 am »
0

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

RGG (Jay) changed it to sound more professional.
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