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Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 11862 times)

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Jeebus

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Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 10, 2015, 12:26:28 pm »
+6

I made a thread about this before, but unfortunately it turned into a discussion which was moved to RSP. There had already been some threads about it before that, which were not moved, so I think it's okay to have a thread about it in the general discussion. Just don't turn it into a... discussion, I guess - unless it's general?

Anyway, I just want to note the current statistics, and do a tentative one for what has been revealed from Adventures. If you think the distribution of male and female cards in Dominion is super-lame, or super-cool, or you are super-indifferent to it, and you want to argue why, go to the other thread. I'll allow myself to note that I think it's cool that for Adventures, "they" (I assume Donald, Jay and their cohorts) for the first time specifically asked the artists for some wimmin. That the fans are talking about it online (even giving many different opinions about it) must have contributed somehow to that decision.

I made a couple of updates on the previous list. (I changed Wishing Well, Shanty Town and Herbalist from Unknown to Both [either 1/3 male 2/3 female or vice versa], Forager from Male to Unknown, and Band of Misfits from Male to Both.) UPDATE 2015-05-04: I added Expand as a female card.
As before I only include cards with people who are clearly displayed.

UPDATE 2016-07-07: New complete list including Empires is here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12971.msg617152#msg617152

BASE
Male: Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Spy, Thief, Woodcutter (Spy and Thief look very male to me)
Female: Witch
Both: Feast, Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Adventurer, Library

INTRIGUE
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Coppersmith, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Saboteur, Scout, Steward, Swindler, Torturer, Tribute
Female: Courtyard, Harem
Both: Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Both: Herbalist (either the man is the herbalist or both are)
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble (there are two women in the back, right?)
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Madman, Marauder, Mercenary, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: -
Both: -
Unknown: -

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 107.1 = 78.2%
FEMALE: 29.9 = 21.8%

UNKNOWN: 8

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE: 17.9%
INTRIGUE: 16.7%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 33.3%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 61.7%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 12.4%
GUILDS: 20.8%
PROMOS: 0.0%

« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 03:58:42 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 12:27:21 pm »
+1

Here's what I got so far for Adventures. Just 11 of the 20 known cards show people.

ADVENTURES
Male: Duplicate(?), Hireling, Borrow, Transmogrify, Giant
Female: Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Guide, Messenger, Swamp Hag, Lost Arts, Storyteller
Both: "Tracking"
Unknown: "Quest"

Percentage of female cards: 54.2%

This changes the total to 24.5% female cards for now.

EDIT: Learned from Donald that Messenger is a woman, and added "Tracking" and "Quest" (cards leaked in French)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:22:34 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2015, 12:33:28 pm »
+1

Must everything be about identity politics?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 12:35:59 pm »
+3

Must everything be about identity politics?

It's about visibility.  Why is "male" the default?  And that's all I'm going to say on that subject.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 12:40:31 pm »
+3

Unknown: Messenger
The Messenger is a woman. It's clearer on the big art.

For Guilds, most of the cards were illustrated by women. They still mostly drew men though (with only Taxman demanding one in the title).
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2015, 12:49:50 pm »
+3

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 12:53:32 pm »
0

Possession also shows a man in that pretty lady's crystal ball.

werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2015, 12:59:34 pm »
+5

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

Animal and plant species are a subject for biologists.  The lack of other races (Mandarin not withstanding) can be waved away by saying Dominion ostensibly takes place in Europe, which is mainly white people.  Same reason there's no real clamor for a black or Asian Robin Hood or King Arthur.

But women make up half the population everywhere.  By just portraying men, you're ignoring half of the entire population.  And that's just kind of silly.

As for being a disinterested 3rd party, being part of a minority (I'm gay) leaves me with a particular empathy for other under-represented groups.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2015, 01:05:54 pm »
+5

Oy, people, stay on topic!

Just don't turn it into a... discussion, I guess
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2015, 01:08:29 pm »
+1

Quite pleased to see the (apparent) change with Adventures. Huzzah!
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2015, 01:16:49 pm »
+22

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
Similarly, why isn't there a poster named AsiansCantSayNo?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2015, 01:18:31 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:20 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.

At this point, it's for consistency.  There's also some precedence for "he" serving as a gender neutral pronoun.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 01:24:10 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.

At this point, it's for consistency.  There's also some precedence for "he" serving as a gender neutral pronoun.

I can believe it's a reason, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly good one. And that precedent stems from that same "male as default" assumption you just pointed out. People may recognize its use as such, but it's still rather dismissive.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2015, 01:29:16 pm »
+10

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

As a human, I actually have a vested interested in seeing other humans treated like humans!
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2015, 01:39:02 pm »
+1

Quest seems to be indeterminate, and Tracking quite obviously has both.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2015, 01:39:35 pm »
+8

People! With just a few exceptions, your posts should all be going in the other thread. Here you go: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I'd rather not have this thread disappear to RSP too.

Let's just talk about whether the cards are correctly categorized or something. I know that means this will be a mostly silent thread, but that's okay. I just want to document this.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 01:40:40 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2015, 01:40:21 pm »
0

Quest seems to be indeterminate, and Tracking quite obviously has both.

Ooh, haven't seen those cards! Where are they?
EDIT: Found the "French" thread, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 01:41:47 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 02:00:45 pm »
+3

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 02:03:04 pm »
+1

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

What about demand?  There are quite obviously players who want to see women in the card art, including Donald X himself.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2015, 02:04:08 pm »
0

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

What about demand?  There are quite obviously players who want to see women in the card art, including Donald X himself.

I'm for equality too, but it's not as big a deal as people make it to be, at least here in the US.

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

...The patriarchy?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2015, 02:29:29 pm »
+2

It's about visibility.  Why is "male" the default?  And that's all I'm going to say on that subject.
EDIT: I was responding to wero but I just noticed the OP said that "if you want to argue why, go to the other thread."

Whoops. I'll leave what I had here in 1pt font, carry on
The reasons are biological and unavoidable, but it gets a big rise out of a lot of people to say and explain this. Politically correct people would rather pretend the reason is some mix of:

(a) stupidity/ignorance
(b) old-fashioned social constructs
(c) malice, i.e. from some secret -- or subconscious! -- male-promoting cabal who don't want women to do meaningful things in society.

But, the simple reason is biology.

When you picture a woman, you're depicting something that half of the population (i.e. men) either instinctively desires or instinctively wants to protect from harm.  And the other half (i.e. women) are well aware of those instincts and how much it affects everything. These instincts exist for reasons that are 100% biological, as sex and reproduction are always key biological drivers. There are certainly many social constructs that echo this biology, but that is because biology drives them to develop, so biology is still the root cause for pretty much all the male and female stuff you see expressed (in many different ways across many cultures)

So when you want to picture something more neutrally, you use a man for the scene.  Using a woman for the same scene changes the audience's impression of a scene, either marginally or more intensely, which the artist may not want - or may just not want to risk, even if it's minor to what they're doing. Also depicting women is more complicated in many ways, as immediately people start judging the work partly based on how attractive or unattractive she is or how safe or dangerous the situation appears to be for her.  When you use a man, such variables matter less, and people will focus more on whatever else you're trying to convey.

So biology is the reason.  Some of the people reading this may not want to accept or choose to acknowledge this reason.  But it is the reason nonetheless.  I'll go out on a limb and suggest it makes a heck of a lot more sense than anything else you'll hear in this thread as an explanation.

It's funny to think of how all the male-female stuff we see would disappear if male and female sexuality disappeared.  It really would! We'd all be androgynous and just not give a damn. You'd get to see much closer to idealized 50/50 splits everywhere.  And that includes Dominion card art.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 02:57:23 pm by Gherald »
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theory

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 02:51:18 pm »
+6

Please keep this related to Dominion specifically.  General discussion about gender issues belongs in RSP.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2015, 03:03:28 pm »
0

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
The lack of other races (Mandarin not withstanding) can be waved away by saying Dominion ostensibly takes place in Europe, which is mainly white people.  Same reason there's no real clamor for a black or Asian Robin Hood or King Arthur.

But women make up half the population everywhere.  By just portraying men, you're ignoring half of the entire population.  And that's just kind of silly.

Women make up half the population everywhere, but they haven't made up half the action everywhen, sadly.  Males were very dominant for all but the last, like, two hundred years or so?  Powerful queens or Joan of Arcs were the exception, not the rule.  And Dominion seems to me to take place even earlier in the middle ages than when queens started getting some appreciable bits of power over affairs.  Portraying a man on most every card is just as historically accurate as portraying a white guy on most every card.  The cards almost all represent someone who has a job, or power, or military role, so given the time period that's going to be a man.  The knights stack already has five more women than is historically accurate, so why doesn't it have two more black horseman or asian horseman than would be accurate too?

If you want Dominion cards to represent women to an extent that is knowingly disproportionate to historical knowledge about the time period, then it is only fair to do the same with blacks, asians, paraplegics, arabs, indians, and everything (I didn't capitalize enough words in this post, sorry).
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2015, 03:12:41 pm »
+2

Unknown: Adventurer

Man, I thought for sure it was a dude!



:))
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 03:14:45 pm »
+2

Unknown: Adventurer

Man, I thought for sure it was a dude!



:))

Cover up those man booblers.  This ain't RSP!
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 03:33:09 pm »
+3

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 03:35:15 pm »
+3

I don't really see how this thread is about dominion anyway.  Just merge both threads and throw the whole thing in RSP
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 03:42:34 pm »
+8

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 03:44:04 pm »
+1

Since the dawn of time, whenever I have pictured women, witches, hags, possessors, harems, and most of all bakers were what came to my mind. Now that adventures is coming out I must also imagine guides, messengers, even heroes!! My mind will be very tired indeed. (P.S. How did i do staying on topic??)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 03:47:51 pm by iguanaiguana »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 04:00:18 pm »
+2

The possessor on Possession...is a woman?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 04:13:25 pm »
+7

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 04:27:28 pm »
+6

XerxesPraelor, werothegreat, Seprix, Gherald, popsofctown.
PLEASE stop posting about this topic here. Go to the other thread:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I said so in the OP, and three people have repeated it. What is it going to take?

Theory, instead of moving this thread too, can you just delete the offending posts? (Or move them to the other thread)

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.
Well I'm not him, but a post with stats and discussion trying to improve the accuracy of the stats sounds just fine to me! For example, a reply like this is very much on topic and not RSP at all:
The Messenger is a woman. It's clearer on the big art.

As an analogy, in the thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12964.0, "Probabilities of a hand", the discussion is of exactly that nature. Imagine if it instead had replies like
Quote
Must everything be about math politics?
Quote
Where are all those similar threads calculating the probabilities of revealing a moat, ending the game in 10 turns or less, etc.

I wonder what it is about hands that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to calculate their probabilities...
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 05:11:26 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, what kind of discussion were you hoping for? I don't see how this leads into anything other than RSP, unless you wanted just a post with stats.

I wrote that already. Just scroll up. (Edit: Ok, it's on page one. The point is, you haven't read the thread.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:12:36 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2015, 11:15:57 am »
+1

Here's the total score for Adventures. 34 out of the 50 cards show people. (Counting each set of 5 Traveller cards as one card for these purposes.)

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

Percentage of female cards: 39.4%

Most of the female cards had been previewed already when I last did the count, so we have a more traditional (for Dominion) distribution than it seemed then. It's a higher percentage of female cards than most other sets, but not close to Cornucopia's 61.7%. Adventures does have the highest number of female cards though (13).

This changes the total Dominion score to:

MALE: 127.1 = 74.7%
FEMALE: 42.9 = 25.3%

UNKNOWN: 9

EDIT 2015-04-28: Changed Royal Carriage to "both", and Raid to "Unknown".
EDIT 2015-05-04: Added Expand (from Prosperity) as a female card, changing the total slightly.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:24:37 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2015, 11:24:45 am »
0

Royal Carriage has a ladygirl in the carriage.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2015, 01:33:44 pm »
+5

Most of the female cards had been previewed already when I last did the count, so we have a more traditional (for Dominion) distribution than it seemed then. It's a higher percentage of female cards than most other sets, but not close to Cornucopia's 61.7%. Adventures does have the highest number of female cards though (12.5).
I only specified for kingdom cards specifically showing a person. It does better there.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2015, 10:08:12 pm »
+6

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with the original post assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:09:25 pm by juffowup »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2015, 10:10:08 pm »
0

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with your assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

I'm pretty sure Donald has only specified gender for recent cards (only Adventures maybe?). Sorry, I misunderstood.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:24:05 pm by Jimmmmm »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2015, 10:14:06 pm »
0

Royal Carriage has a ladygirl in the carriage.

Yeah, I know. The question is what represents the Royal Carriage. The driver is a man, so I went by that. It's like if the card was named Taxi and the taxi driver was a man, with a male and a female passenger. But this one is certainly not clear.

I'm glad to see counting happen; I made a similar thread right after Dark Ages I think.  But I disagree with the original post assigning maleness to Thief and Spy (and probably some others as well). 

There are no clear gender signifiers on either of those cards, and I don't think it's reasonable to be unhappy about the 'default is male' attitude that leads to these disparities while simultaneously assigning a default gender of male to images that don't really assign it for you.

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 11:08:59 pm »
+1

Here's the total score for Adventures. 34 out of the 50 cards show people. (Counting each set of 5 Traveller cards as one card for these purposes.)

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Raid, Ratcatcher, Raze, Royal Carriage, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Scouting Party

Percentage of female cards: 36.8%

Quibbles:

Raid -- Too much armor to distinguish male vs female. Everybody's going to look the same in that armor. Suggestion: unknown.

Royal Carriage -- Since the passengers put the "royal" in "royal carriage", and the most visible passenger is female, I'd argue this should be classified as both.

Travelling Fair -- The person doing a handstand is plausibly female. Granted, even with that it's still 4 male to 1 female, and the most prominent character is male. But they're all part of the travelling fair. Suggestion: both?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2015, 12:09:12 am »
+1

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2015, 09:52:54 am »
0

Quibbles:

Raid -- Too much armor to distinguish male vs female. Everybody's going to look the same in that armor. Suggestion: unknown.

Royal Carriage -- Since the passengers put the "royal" in "royal carriage", and the most visible passenger is female, I'd argue this should be classified as both.

Travelling Fair -- The person doing a handstand is plausibly female. Granted, even with that it's still 4 male to 1 female, and the most prominent character is male. But they're all part of the travelling fair. Suggestion: both?

Raid: I admit that here I went by what the intention most likely was. The type of armor and helmet looks like it would be worn by a man. But, since historically there were no female knights in the first place and that didn't stop the Dames of Dark Ages, I guess you can't really say what the gender of this person is either. I'll change it to "unknown" (although I'm 95% sure the artist thought of a man).

Royal Carriage: Ok, I'll change it to "both".

Travelling Fair: One person of unknown gender in the back, and the rest more clearly depicted men? I think I'm keeping this "male".

« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:04:03 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2015, 09:58:03 am »
0

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2015, 12:33:58 pm »
+1

I looked at the faces of the Thief and the Spy, and they looked pretty male. I did the same for some other cards, and found they looked female, mostly in Adventures I guess.

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I would say Thief's very square jaw is a weak biological indicator for maleness.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2015, 12:59:38 pm »
+2

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

I've noticed that horses are vastly overrepresented compared to other nonhuman animals.  Though if you group all birds together, they might be doing okay.  Rats too.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2015, 10:39:06 am »
+1

I just noticed this after years of Dominion, but there's an unambiguous female on Expand.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2015, 11:30:38 am »
0

I guess this is a thing I might never have thought through unless I had written my own similar list, but the question I came to is what actually signifies male? 

Thief and Spy are good examples, in that they are intimidating, brutish faces, but with no facial hair, no male pattern baldness, and no visible junk-bulge.  Yes, brutishness is a masculine quality, but it isn't really a male quality.  Thief has broad shoulders, but is also clearly wearing a cape or something that is exaggerating their shoulders. 

I guess an argument could be made that Spy looks like they have stubble, and I guess I would respect that, but for Thief I can't see that at all.

I would argue that in these cases (as well as comparable Adventures cases you ruled as female but I haven't really looked), the absence of biological signifiers should outweigh the presence of cultural signifiers... otherwise you might as well just decide that most thefts are performed by men so Thief is a male card.

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.


_________________________________________________________________

Royal Carriage should be female because clearly the female is the one who "called" the Royal Carriage and will get to play her action card an additional time.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2015, 11:53:07 am »
+5

I'm really glad that there's more female representation in Adventures. Even though the ratio is not that much higher, I think the inclusion of a female ARC CHARACTER (who I just absolutely love as seen by my avatar), and one in a position of power at that, is a big step for the female gaming community. Plus Alayna Lemmer is so talented it hurts.

What I'm a bit worried about, though, is the abundance of male pronouns in the card descriptions. "Each other player takes his -$1 token", "reveals the top card of his deck", "he gains a Curse", etc. This is true on cards from other sets too but somehow it hasn't been so apparent as in Adventures. DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2015, 11:56:49 am »
0

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

RGG (Jay) changed it to sound more professional.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2015, 11:58:10 am »
+5

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

The pre-publication prototype said "they" or "he or she," not entirely consistently. You can see examples on the oldest cards in the outtakes article: http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/06/24/dominion-outtakes/. When I showed the prototype to RGG, it was consistently "they." It turns out this is another thing the game designer does not get to decide.

Jay went with "he" as a common way of trying to look professional. "Edited English" uses "he." I strongly favor "they," since it's not sexist, people have been saying it for hundreds of years, and in conversation people rarely say "he or she." People trying to look professional tend to not want to use "they" though, and generally aren't looking to make a statement about the issue either. Anyway that's a discussion for the Religion, Sex, Politics, and Language Prescriptivism forum.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2015, 12:03:31 pm »
0

DXV, I don't want you to think I'm being rude, but was there anything stopping you from, say, using the singular "they" on those cards?

RGG (Jay) changed it to sound more professional.

A few of the later cards, particularly Soothsayer, are worded so that pronouns aren't even needed ("this player", etc), but with a lot of the Adventures stuff there's just really no way around it.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2015, 02:45:50 pm »
0

If Dominion started using "they" on theoretical future cards, that's an "inconsistency" that would get my full support.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2015, 06:45:18 pm »
+1

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2015, 06:55:10 pm »
+9

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2015, 10:35:06 pm »
+3

I think they should use "he" and "she" for different specific things, just to mess with people.  "Why does 'she' always get to draw a card, but 'he' has to take a Curse?  It just isn't fair."
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2015, 10:40:07 am »
0

If Dominion started using "they" on theoretical future cards, that's an "inconsistency" that would get my full support.

I think it's okay to discuss the cards or how they could have been here, as long as we don't get into the politics (arguing why the cards should or shouldn't be a certain way).

I think "he or she"/"the player"/"that player" could have worked, maybe it would just be a bit more awkward. But "they" is a bit more difficult.

"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from their hand. If they don't, they gain a Curse." (Young Witch)

"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck [...] If they didn't reveal a Treasure, they gain a Copper." (Noble Brigand)

At least it would seem to change the order of resolution for cards like Spy and Saboteur (but that may not be very important).

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2015, 11:46:47 am »
+1

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:49:00 am by XerxesPraelor »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2015, 12:18:17 pm »
0

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

When you say "for", do you mean 'against'?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2015, 12:43:58 pm »
0

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2015, 12:50:28 pm »
+4

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Can we all just blame Proto-Indo-European for not having a gender-neutral animate third person singular pronoun?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2015, 12:52:32 pm »
+6

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Can we all just blame Proto-Indo-European for not having a gender-neutral animate third person singular pronoun?

Yes.  They're bastards.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2015, 12:53:17 pm »
+2

It's not even sexist to use 'he'. I don't think it's a problem.

I think you're going to get a lot of disagreement on this point, but I also recommend that this discussion not happen in this thread as the OP has already indicated that they would prefer to keep this thread just about discussion of the data and data gathering itself.

I think you're right in this case, but it's inconsistent to say this just to him and not to Jeebus, Elanchana, and Voltaire, just to name a few people who have been talking about non "data and data gathering" recently in this thread.

Also, I can't wait until singular they is finally accepted. There's basically no good argument for it besides "it's what I was taught".

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2015, 01:29:05 pm »
0

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2015, 01:40:04 pm »
0

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.

For practical purposes we have to figure out what the hell the artist intended to draw. If we were counting horses and a card had a badly drawn horse which could also be a dog, the fact that a person is riding it would be a clue to the artist's intention. But actually of course it's possible for a humam being to sit on a dog. It might be a small human being and a big dog. That consideration would not make me put the card as an "unknown".

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2015, 02:06:56 pm »
0

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms

Y'all.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2015, 03:59:36 pm »
+2

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms
I would use this as an example of how out-of-our-control this all is. It was clearly better to have separate words for you singular and you plural, and yet the language ended up with the same word. It would be nice to have separate words for they singular and they plural, but we've had singular they for hundreds of years and it shows no signs of vanishing from use.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2015, 04:44:25 pm »
+1

Funny story. In the past, the second-person singular pronoun was "thou", and second-person plural was the context where "you" was used. Over time, "you" got absorbed into being used for both, to the point where no one even questions it because it's what we're all used to.

"They" could be used the same way for third-person. Just like with "you", it'd be perfectly viable for it to get accepted as a regular singular pronoun, and once people got used to it they wouldn't question it. In fact, it could even become the only third-person pronoun used, just like how "you" is the only second-person pronoun used, but that's getting into some whole other topics.

The lack of two different words for singular-you and plural-you is a problem in English though. It easily leads to misunderstandings. Which is why many dialects of English have created their own version of plural-you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Informal_plural_forms
I would use this as an example of how out-of-our-control this all is. It was clearly better to have separate words for you singular and you plural, and yet the language ended up with the same word. It would be nice to have separate words for they singular and they plural, but we've had singular they for hundreds of years and it shows no signs of vanishing from use.

"Thou" actually fell out of use because it was used as an insult.  It was supposed to connote familiarity, which turned into "I have no respect for you."  So everyone just started using "you", which could be used as a singular pronoun to connote respect.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2015, 05:01:32 pm »
0

I think "he or she"/"the player"/"that player" could have worked, maybe it would just be a bit more awkward. But "they" is a bit more difficult.

"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from their hand. If they don't, they gain a Curse." (Young Witch)

"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck [...] If they didn't reveal a Treasure, they gain a Copper." (Noble Brigand)

For Young Witch, I'd try
"Each other player may reveal a Bane card from hand. Each player who didn't gains a Curse."
The ordering might be slightly different from the existing Young Witch. (Doesn't the current ordering interleave revealing banes and gaining curses?)
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2015, 07:39:45 pm »
0

I don't agree. We have to consider that the artist had a gender in mind. They didn't just draw a person without deciding on the gender. Maybe if they drew a robed figure, that would be the case, but in 99% of these cards they had a gender in mind. Take a look at Caravan Guard. If this was a photo, there would be no way of knowing if this was a woman or an androgynous looking man. Or Messenger, which Donald has confirmed is a woman. So we have to realize that the artist would not choose to draw an androgynous looking man if they were drawing a man (without there being specific reasons for doing so). The same applies for Thief and Spy, the other way around.

If the thread is about persecuting artists, then sure, but the end result should matter more than that.

There's the whole, how separate is interpretation of art from the artists' intent debate and all that jazz, but for practical purposes like this thread and just tabulating things, the end result is what matters.

For practical purposes we have to figure out what the hell the artist intended to draw. If we were counting horses and a card had a badly drawn horse which could also be a dog, the fact that a person is riding it would be a clue to the artist's intention. But actually of course it's possible for a humam being to sit on a dog. It might be a small human being and a big dog. That consideration would not make me put the card as an "unknown".
I'm going to acknowledge your post and stop responding further.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2015, 08:46:49 pm »
+5

I would like a singular they. I am however afraid it's going to sound stupid, like some made up word.

Don't worry, they're all made-up words.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2015, 02:20:10 am »
+2

I just noticed this after years of Dominion, but there's an unambiguous female on Expand.

If the square jaw on Thief isn't unambiguously male, the long hair on Expand certainly isn't unambiguously female.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2015, 09:13:36 am »
0

I'm going with female or elf.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2016, 03:57:34 pm »
+3

I lost some interest in this, but thought I should update it for Empires anyway. Here is the whole list.

To be consistent with how I did it for Knights, Prizes and Ruins, each card in a split pile counts as half a card. Cards with "both" count 0.5 male and 0.5 female. As before I'm going with who is being, doing or engaging with whatever's described in the card name.

I was unsure how to catergorize Advance and Tax. Both have men and women, but who is doing the thing? For Tax, the tax collectors are for sure the men, and the couple are just some hapless people getting taxed, so it seems correct to call it a "male" card. For Advance, there is a woman doing something very actively towards a man. But who is advancing? Is she advancing him, or is he advancing? In any case it seems better to call it a "both".

UPDATE 2016-10-06: Updated for base and Intrigue 2nd edition, and Sauna/Avanto promo.
EDIT 2016-10-07: Mistake in Intrigue corrected (Patrol)
UPDATE 2017-10-28: Updated based on new grouping method, see this post. (No new cards.)

BASE
Male: Bureaucrat, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Vassal
Female: Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Witch
Both: Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Library

INTRIGUE
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Replace, Steward, Swindler, Torturer
Female: Courtyard, Diplomat, Harem, Lurker, Patrol
Both: Courtier, Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Herbalist, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble (there are two women in the back, right?)
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit/Madman, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Marauder, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin/Mercenary, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

EMPIRES
Male: Arena(?), Battlefield, Catapult/Rocks, Chariot Race, Conquest, Delve, Dominate, Gladiator/Fortune, Legionary, Overlord, Patrician/Emporium, Royal Blacksmith, Sacrifice, Tax, Triumph, Triumphal Arch
Female: Baths, Donate, Enchantress, Engineer, Farmers' Market, Groundskeeper, Wedding, Windfall
Both: Advance, Annex, Banquet, Basilica, Salt the Earth, Settlers/Bustling Village
Unknown: Encampment/Plunder, Bandit Fort, Wild Hunt

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: Summon
Both: -
Unknown: Sauna

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 139 = 68.7%
FEMALE: 65 = 31.8%

UNKNOWN: 12

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE: 50.0%
INTRIGUE: 34.2%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 28.6%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 63.6%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 14.0%
GUILDS: 20.8%
ADVENTURES: 39.4%
EMPIRES: 36.7%
PROMOS: 20.0%
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:35:06 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2016, 04:21:43 pm »
+5

I did an update of the post based on the new editions of the base game and Intrigue. The old (replaced) cards are not included.

Base goes from 17.9% to 50.0% (and is now only second to Cornucopia as the most woman-filled set).
Intrigue goes from 16.7% to 34.2%.
This changes the total from 27.2% to 31.3% female.

Edit 2016-10-07: Corrected because Patrol was incorrectly counted as male.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 04:40:58 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2016, 02:15:49 am »
0

It's a nice improvement. I think the real questions is, are the women get paid the same as the men?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2016, 03:40:05 am »
+3

Some of them are only getting paid $3!

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2016, 03:55:06 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2016, 05:15:51 am »
+1

It's a nice improvement. I think the real questions is, are the women get paid the same as the men?

The female-art Base cards cost on average slightly more than the male-art ones:

Male: Bureaucrat 4, Laboratory 5, Militia 4, Mine 5, Moneylender 4, Smithy 4, Vassal 3, total = 29
Female: Artisan 6, Bandit 5, Harbinger 3, Merchant 3, Poacher 4, Sentry 5, Witch 5, total = 31
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2016, 08:30:53 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2016, 08:57:43 am »
+3

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

It's also... kind of accurate?  Harems would actually include European women.  There's actually a very long and complicated (and certainly horribly misogynistic :( ) history associated with harems.

EDIT: Also, I think this is exactly the card that needs cartoony art so you kind of forget about the actual subject matter, it gives the vibe of "please don't take this too seriously, it's just a game, folks"
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:00:40 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2016, 09:06:46 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Oh yeah, forgot about Harem.

It's so hard to get feminists to shut up. :P
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2016, 09:12:25 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Isn't this pigeonholing this a bit?

I literally never looked at art of cards more than half a second. I mean, I remember what cards do based on sort of overall recognition, not even necessarily names.

'I was drawing a lot of cards with that brown card that gives 2 cards and an action' is a typical sentence. (Although, by now, I know the name of laboratory pretty good.)
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2016, 09:17:13 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

Isn't this pigeonholing this a bit?

I literally never looked at art of cards more than half a second. I mean, I remember what cards do based on sort of overall recognition, not even necessarily names.

'I was drawing a lot of cards with that brown card that gives 2 cards and an action' is a typical sentence. (Although, by now, I know the name of laboratory pretty good.)

Sure, not everyone is conscious of or pays attention to the art or card name. That doesn't mean they have no purpose or leave no impression on the user; why even have those attributes if they are actually not used at all by anyone? Clearly some people (that aren't you, I guess?) look at this stuff. Might as well try to suck less.

I don't mean to single out Harem because I remember reading a post where DXV offered to change the name or the art or something but the original artist said no, but it is an example of a problematic element of the media. That doesn't like make Dominion shitty overall or not worth buying or whatever, but it's something to note while we're talking about the portrayal of gender in cards.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2016, 09:26:27 am »
+1

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

It's also... kind of accurate?  Harems would actually include European women.  There's actually a very long and complicated (and certainly horribly misogynistic :( ) history associated with harems.

EDIT: Also, I think this is exactly the card that needs cartoony art so you kind of forget about the actual subject matter, it gives the vibe of "please don't take this too seriously, it's just a game, folks"

I was slightly disappointed that the new version of intrigue didn't include a new name and art for Harem. I mean, it milled great hall.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2016, 09:37:01 am »
0

At the very least there doesn't seem to be any sexual harassment on the cards.

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.

The art wouldn't have been made in the context of knowing the art on all the other cards. 
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2016, 09:38:58 am »
+3

There is a thread about Harem and whatever implications it has. I think maybe it was started by me, but I'm not sure. Donald talks about it there too. I would give the link, but I'm on my phone so it's too much hassle. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you didn't discuss the politics of gender and stuff here, because it easily ends with the thread being moved to RSP.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 05:54:11 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2016, 11:11:48 am »
+2

Jeebus, your Intrigue count is wrong. Patrol is female.
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stechafle

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2016, 12:34:58 pm »
+1

Take a close look at Witch. I think there is a man under that veil. That chin!
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2016, 04:43:18 pm »
0

Jeebus, your Intrigue count is wrong. Patrol is female.

Agh. I actually checked it in large size and confirmed that it's indeed a woman, but then somehow screwed up and put it in the wrong column anyway. Thanks! Corrected.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2016, 04:45:43 pm »
+15

Harem is pretty objectifying, and kind of racist! I feel like the white woman in the back of the art was ham-fisted in to make it seem less terrible that some of the only women of color in the game are sex slaves. Oh well.
Whatever other line of reasoning the artist may have used, he had to include the white woman; it's Valerie Putman, developer for the main game.

Then, when I suggested renaming Harem in 2E, Jay said no, because Valerie had appreciated being on Harem. Couldn't Valerie be depicted on the new card? I don't know if he asked or what but he did not agree to it.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2017, 08:34:30 pm »
+1

I'm looking at this again. There's a lot of non-kingdom cards coming in Nocturne. Previously I was counting Prizes, Knights, Ruins and split piles as one pile each (so that Princess would be 1/5 of a card, a card from a split pile would be 0.5 card, etc), and also factoring in how often a non-Kingdom card would appear. I've decided that this method isn't tenable anymore.

I'm now basing it more on thematic content. Prizes and Ruins now count as separate cards, but the Knight pile still counts as 1 card, Hermit/Madman is just 1, so is Urchin/Mercenary, and each Traveller line is just 1. Split piles count as 1 pile (considering both images). In Nocturne, Boons and Hexes count as separate cards, Ghost/Haunted Mirror is 1, so is Vampire/Bat, the other non-Kingdom cards each count as separate cards.

This produces the following changes in the current list: Cornucopia changes from 61.7% to 63.6%, Dark Ages changes from 12.4% to 14.0%, and Empires changes from 37.3% to 36.7%. Total female cards go from 31.3% to 31.8% The list is updated.

For now I haven't added any Nocturne cards or the new promo. But factoring in all cards known so far gets us to 45.7% female cards in Nocturne, the highest except for Cornucopia and the revised edition of the base game. New total would be 33.1% female.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:35:41 pm by Jeebus »
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ackmondual

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2017, 03:24:09 am »
0

Noting the irony how Adventures doesn't have Adventurers!  :o
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2017, 09:42:45 am »
0

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2017, 10:05:41 am »
0

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2017, 10:49:31 am »
+2

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

Debatable; Witchery is a traditionally feminine career, so it's reasonable that there wouldn't be a gender-based Curse gap.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2017, 10:59:32 am »
+1

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

I figure he would do equal work, but would cost 6.33 coins.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2017, 11:29:53 am »
+3

No comment on the general gender issue, I feel the same way about all hrethgir.

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

That said, I'm surprised that a "Warlock" hasn't made it into Dominion yet. I'd like to see something like that, perhaps in conjunction with some female witch apprentices maybe.

I would consider both Cultist and Torturer to be Witch variants, although obviously Cultist is a variant because it gives out Ruins instead of Curses. Enchantress has a Witch-like theme and does not give out Curses, but is female and an attack.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2017, 08:14:27 am »
0

I would consider both Cultist and Torturer to be Witch variants, although obviously Cultist is a variant because it gives out Ruins instead of Curses. Enchantress has a Witch-like theme and does not give out Curses, but is female and an attack.

Cards that give out Ruins are specifically a Looter type as shown on the bottom of the card. This signifies somebody or a group raiding a village or siphoning resources and leaving (almost) nothing left. The witch cards are not a type, but more of a theme, which is entirely subjective, unlike the Looters. For instance, the Looter type is significant with Courtier, but not any "Witch" cards apart from their Attack-Action-etc types.

I wouldn't count Torturer to be a Witch card since it is possible to play a whole game being tortured without gaining a curse. It is entirely up to the poor tortured soul whether a curse is gained or not. Not so with something like Mountebank or Young Witch, which (ha) only fail to give you curses due to some condition of your current hand, but the same can be said for any other Witch when attacked players hold a Moat.

I thought about including Enchantress as a Witch card as she seems to fit the general theme. However, she doesn't give out curses, so she is just an attack who happens to be female, like Warrior or Dame Josephine. Again, this is entirely subjective  ;)
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2017, 12:27:11 pm »
0

Cards that give out Ruins are specifically a Looter type as shown on the bottom of the card. This signifies somebody or a group raiding a village or siponing resources and leaving (almost) nothing left.

So are Witches about theme or about mechanics now? And since when are Death Karts related to looting? The type has a mechanical function, which is placing Ruin cards in the supply, and that's that. Cultist and Torturer are both variants of base's Witch, being stronger in some respect and worse in others. Witch has more in common with Torturer than with e.g. Swamp Hag. Donald X himself described Torturer as "a Witch with a bane of two cards you don't want".

The witch cards are not a type, but more of a theme, which is entirely subjective, unlike the Looters. For instance, the Looter type is significant with Courtier, but not any "Witch" cards apart from their Attack-Action-etc types.
I'm well aware of this and you'll find I never stated Looters in general were related to Witches. You're arguing against a strawman here.

Again, are Witches about a mechanic or about a theme? Should Enchantress be none because there's no junking, or Mountebank because it's not a female magic user? I'm arguing from the mechanical side, and you're free to look at it thematically only, but maybe stay consistent?

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2017, 01:33:56 pm »
+2

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male, and Mountebank. I'm counting a "Witch" card to be one that explicitly has the mechanic of giving other players curses and is an attack, disagree if you wish.

You forgot Followers, gotta be some witches hiding somewhere in there.

I wouldn't count Torturer to be a Witch card since it is possible to play a whole game being tortured without gaining a curse. It is entirely up to the poor tortured soul whether a curse is gained or not.

It's also possible to play the whole game being Swamp Haged and never gain a curse, so to be consistent you'll have to include Torturer, Jester and others I'm probably forgetting or remove Swamp Hag.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2017, 01:43:59 pm »
0

I will note that all the "Witch" cards (Witch, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Soothsayer, Swamp Hag) are female, with the exception of Familiar, which appears to be male

It's really hard to say if the person in Familiar is male or female, but there are folkloric associations between familiars and female witches. Specifically: witches had an extra nipple at which their familiar would suckle.
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DemonGenius

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2017, 02:18:53 pm »
0

Cards that give out Ruins are specifically a Looter type as shown on the bottom of the card. This signifies somebody or a group raiding a village or siponing resources and leaving (almost) nothing left.

So are Witches about theme or about mechanics now? And since when are Death Karts related to looting? The type has a mechanical function, which is placing Ruin cards in the supply, and that's that. Cultist and Torturer are both variants of base's Witch, being stronger in some respect and worse in others. Witch has more in common with Torturer than with e.g. Swamp Hag. Donald X himself described Torturer as "a Witch with a bane of two cards you don't want".

The witch cards are not a type, but more of a theme, which is entirely subjective, unlike the Looters. For instance, the Looter type is significant with Courtier, but not any "Witch" cards apart from their Attack-Action-etc types.
I'm well aware of this and you'll find I never stated Looters in general were related to Witches. You're arguing against a strawman here.

Again, are Witches about a mechanic or about a theme? Should Enchantress be none because there's no junking, or Mountebank because it's not a female magic user? I'm arguing from the mechanical side, and you're free to look at it thematically only, but maybe stay consistent?

You're clearly a more serious person than I am. You're right about everything, you win. :)
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2017, 03:33:43 pm »
+1

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

I figure he would do equal work, but would cost 6.33 coins.
Using the first post, I came up with average values:

Male: $3.90 (135)
Female: $4.33 (55)
NA/Both: $3.35 (165)

(Note: The card list I used included Landmarks, which drops the average values as they have no cost.)


[In RSP style, women make less than half what men make, because there's less of them.]
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2017, 05:41:41 pm »
+1

You're clearly a more serious person than I am. You're right about everything, you win. :)

I guess that's also a way to win an argument.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2017, 06:08:00 pm »
0

A Warlock would give out 1.266 curses when you played it.

I figure he would do equal work, but would cost 6.33 coins.
Using the first post, I came up with average values:

Male: $3.90 (135)
Female: $4.33 (55)
NA/Both: $3.35 (165)

(Note: The card list I used included Landmarks, which drops the average values as they have no cost.)


[In RSP style, women make less than half what men make, because there's less of them.]

Looks like males are about quantity, and females are about quality.  Sounds about right  ;)
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2017, 04:07:53 pm »
+2

So, kinda related, how is this rate with (non-)caucasians? I can think about approx. 15 cards that show people who aren't European, which is a rather small percentage (it might be about 25 total?). It basically seems that we have a more "historically correct" approach here, in that non-whites mostly appear in the "abroad" themed expansions and cards, but rarely ever outside. Werwolf is actually the only card I can think of that isn't from Hinterland or Seaside and hasn't gotten a name that basically demands non-white people to be on it. I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).

Any opinions or clear numbers on this? Admittedly, I'm too lazy to count.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2017, 07:22:00 pm »
+1

Werwolf is actually the only card I can think of that isn't from Hinterland or Seaside and hasn't gotten a name that basically demands non-white people to be on it.

?
Not sure if it satisfies your criteria or if she's definitively non-white.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 07:23:04 pm by Cave-o-sapien »
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2017, 07:37:02 pm »
+6

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2017, 08:15:04 pm »
0

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages

I'd like to be convinced this is true, but the article kind of confirms the assumption of division by gender. Can you point to the passage where it says what you wrote?

Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2017, 08:44:46 pm »
+1

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages

I'd like to be convinced this is true, but the article kind of confirms the assumption of division by gender. Can you point to the passage where it says what you wrote?
It does not ever say "that view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women." It does list various jobs that women had though, including just about anything teamed up with a husband or dead husband. It puts "artisan" in the opening paragraph.

I do not feel like devoting time to trying to convince you of whatever. The internet is there for you.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2017, 10:11:38 pm »
0

Joan of Arc.

Also, Margrave's art doesn't look particularly European, which is weird, since it's a German concept
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2017, 10:17:52 pm »
0

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages

I'd like to be convinced this is true, but the article kind of confirms the assumption of division by gender. Can you point to the passage where it says what you wrote?
It does not ever say "that view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women." It does list various jobs that women had though, including just about anything teamed up with a husband or dead husband. It puts "artisan" in the opening paragraph.

I do not feel like devoting time to trying to convince you of whatever. The internet is there for you.

It's not like I said "women never did jobs in medieval times which you'd usually think of as male". I said "the portion of women depicted this way appears to be on another level of accuracy than the portion of people of non-caucasian race, and I wonder why that is". There were quite a few non-European people in medieval Europe, too. Why do we rarely see those? The article makes it rather clear that the portion of women who did things like fighting was conceivably smaller than the male percentage. But even if the percentage represented in the game was still below the historical level, the card/history percantage appears to be more favourable for women in jobs than for non-Europeans in general.

I do in fact appreciate the attempt to increase female representation in Dominion. I was just wondering why, if this effort of making the game relatable to all people is made, it still appears to continue being relatively Euro-centric.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2017, 10:25:47 pm »
0

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages

I'd like to be convinced this is true, but the article kind of confirms the assumption of division by gender. Can you point to the passage where it says what you wrote?
It does not ever say "that view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women." It does list various jobs that women had though, including just about anything teamed up with a husband or dead husband. It puts "artisan" in the opening paragraph.

I do not feel like devoting time to trying to convince you of whatever. The internet is there for you.

It's not like I said "women never did jobs in medieval times which you'd usually think of as male". I said "the portion of women depicted this way appears to be on another level of accuracy than the portion of people of non-caucasian race, and I wonder why that is". There were quite a few non-European people in medieval Europe, too. Why do we rarely see those? The article makes it rather clear that the portion of women who did things like fighting was conceivably smaller than the male percentage. But even if the percentage represented in the game was still below the historical level, the card/history percantage appears to be more favourable for women in jobs than for non-Europeans in general.
Did you say that somewhere? I was replying to "I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples)."
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2017, 12:13:00 am »
+1

I very much appreciate the efforts to have more women represented; and to me, whether it's improbable or not is beside the point. It's not like Dominion is a medieval simulation game.

Furthermore, since it has become increasingly vague when the game is set, there's no reason artists can't take liberties with where it's set and what the people in those locations might look like.
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2017, 06:52:48 am »
+1

I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures eamples).
That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women. They did lots of jobs in medieval times, and even fought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages

I'd like to be convinced this is true, but the article kind of confirms the assumption of division by gender. Can you point to the passage where it says what you wrote?
It does not ever say "that view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women." It does list various jobs that women had though, including just about anything teamed up with a husband or dead husband. It puts "artisan" in the opening paragraph.

I do not feel like devoting time to trying to convince you of whatever. The internet is there for you.

It's not like I said "women never did jobs in medieval times which you'd usually think of as male". I said "the portion of women depicted this way appears to be on another level of accuracy than the portion of people of non-caucasian race, and I wonder why that is". There were quite a few non-European people in medieval Europe, too. Why do we rarely see those? The article makes it rather clear that the portion of women who did things like fighting was conceivably smaller than the male percentage. But even if the percentage represented in the game was still below the historical level, the card/history percantage appears to be more favourable for women in jobs than for non-Europeans in general.
Did you say that somewhere? I was replying to "I find this remarkable because on the other hand we have women on a lot of cards where it's rather improbable, historically speaking (take Warrior, Guide, Ranger, Artificer and probably Caravan Guard just to name Adventures examples)."

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant. I should probably have written "less probable" and not "improbable", but at some point you have to hope people try to see what you talk about, and not just what they can disagree with.

Either way, my question was not why the choice went for a woman in such cases. I think it's good that this effort to have more women in Dominion is made. My question was why, if apparently this good and important effort is made for women being seen on more cards, why it isn't made for non-whites. Actually, I was not even asking that predominantly, I was asking for people to contribute to this discussion by providing numbers or input, and possibly show me that my perception was wrong, and that either there were more non-caucasians in the game than I recall, or that both female and non-white representation were on about the same level, if compared to the historical level. That "non-caucasians in game/non-caucasians in history" was about as high as "women in game/women in history", to put it mathematically. Speaking of only one of these sizes and ignoring the other goes beside my point.

Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2017, 09:33:39 am »
+3

That view turns out to be part of today's cultural bias against women.

I'm no expert, but I suspect at least some of this is more "today's cultural bias against the past, especially the Middle Ages" than "today's cultural bias against women." As in, the Past was Bad, so of course they treated women terribly, not like in today's enlightened age.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2017, 09:43:46 am »
0

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant.
It's less probably on that one card, but since about a third of the cards are women your point is only true if there were less than a third women on average in the various roles represented.

But I agree with your general point that it would be great if more non-white were represtented too. As you(?) said, there were non-Europeans living in Europe. How many and in what roles I'm not sure about. For the record, add Peddler and Goons.

Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2017, 12:51:25 pm »
0

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant. I should probably have written "less probable" and not "improbable", but at some point you have to hope people try to see what you talk about, and not just what they can disagree with.
It sure didn't look like that's what you meant, at all. "Rather improbable" would still be wrong; it was not so heavily skewed.

Either way, my question was not why the choice went for a woman in such cases.
I responded to the part of your post that I wanted to respond to. I get to do that! No amount of "What I was actually asking" changes the thing you said that I disagreed with.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2017, 01:05:28 pm »
0

Werwolf is actually the only card I can think of that isn't from Hinterland or Seaside and hasn't gotten a name that basically demands non-white people to be on it.

I think Raider also qualifies.

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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2017, 01:42:01 pm »
0

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant. I should probably have written "less probable" and not "improbable", but at some point you have to hope people try to see what you talk about, and not just what they can disagree with.
It sure didn't look like that's what you meant, at all. "Rather improbable" would still be wrong; it was not so heavily skewed.

Either way, my question was not why the choice went for a woman in such cases.
I responded to the part of your post that I wanted to respond to. I get to do that! No amount of "What I was actually asking" changes the thing you said that I disagreed with.

So you did. Just like you can take the freedom to not spend any more time trying to convince me what is or is not true, I can take the freedom to not spend any more time on trying to convince you what I did or did not mean. The completeness of my life does not depend on you agreeing with me.

Werwolf is actually the only card I can think of that isn't from Hinterland or Seaside and hasn't gotten a name that basically demands non-white people to be on it.

I think Raider also qualifies.



It seems I have been forgetting another "not thematically forced" card. Mystic and this are the kind of reply I was hoping for. Oh, Expand just came to my mind, too. Maybe it's really more than I thought.

Witherweaver

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2017, 02:07:20 pm »
0

I don't see why censual data for Dominion's world ought to be in extremely high agreement with that from the comparable era of our own history. The idea I think is that you want to have a theme, and I think we do and that genders does not affect it much, if at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2017, 02:45:53 pm »
0

I responded to the part of your post that I wanted to respond to. I get to do that! No amount of "What I was actually asking" changes the thing you said that I disagreed with.

So you did. Just like you can take the freedom to not spend any more time trying to convince me what is or is not true, I can take the freedom to not spend any more time on trying to convince you what I did or did not mean. The completeness of my life does not depend on you agreeing with me.
We are seeing eye to eye at last.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2017, 03:11:18 pm »
+1

This guy is not European either.

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2017, 03:12:46 pm »
0

This guy is not European either.



Right, but that's from Hinterlands.

Werwolf is actually the only card I can think of that isn't from Hinterland or Seaside and hasn't gotten a name that basically demands non-white people to be on it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2017, 03:19:44 pm »
0

Ah, fair.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2017, 04:24:12 pm »
+1

It seems I have been forgetting another "not thematically forced" card. Mystic and this are the kind of reply I was hoping for. Oh, Expand just came to my mind, too. Maybe it's really more than I thought.

I guess you missed my post where I mentioned Peddler and Goons.

ConMan

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2017, 05:49:45 pm »
+4

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant. I should probably have written "less probable" and not "improbable", but at some point you have to hope people try to see what you talk about, and not just what they can disagree with.
The problem is that when everyone says "There are more X than Y so I will choose X to represent my thing", then that's how you get overwhelming bias towards everything being X. If you've got a list of 10 professions that each has a 60-40 male-female representation and you apply your reasoning about picking whatever's "more probably", then your final list has 10 men on it when you should expect to have about 4 women. As someone who is in the majority group for most of the obvious categories, I appreciate that Donald went so far as to consider the gender split across an entire box of cards and picked not-always-typical options to make sure that the representation is fairer.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2017, 06:09:26 pm »
+1

What percentage of Pookas are female?

I mean, historically. Not today, obviously.
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2017, 06:54:25 pm »
0

What percentage of Pookas are female?

I mean, historically. Not today, obviously.

I'd say the statement "Historically, there was no single male Pooka and no single female Pooka" is true.
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