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Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 11865 times)

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Jeebus

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Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 10, 2015, 12:26:28 pm »
+6

I made a thread about this before, but unfortunately it turned into a discussion which was moved to RSP. There had already been some threads about it before that, which were not moved, so I think it's okay to have a thread about it in the general discussion. Just don't turn it into a... discussion, I guess - unless it's general?

Anyway, I just want to note the current statistics, and do a tentative one for what has been revealed from Adventures. If you think the distribution of male and female cards in Dominion is super-lame, or super-cool, or you are super-indifferent to it, and you want to argue why, go to the other thread. I'll allow myself to note that I think it's cool that for Adventures, "they" (I assume Donald, Jay and their cohorts) for the first time specifically asked the artists for some wimmin. That the fans are talking about it online (even giving many different opinions about it) must have contributed somehow to that decision.

I made a couple of updates on the previous list. (I changed Wishing Well, Shanty Town and Herbalist from Unknown to Both [either 1/3 male 2/3 female or vice versa], Forager from Male to Unknown, and Band of Misfits from Male to Both.) UPDATE 2015-05-04: I added Expand as a female card.
As before I only include cards with people who are clearly displayed.

UPDATE 2016-07-07: New complete list including Empires is here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12971.msg617152#msg617152

BASE
Male: Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Spy, Thief, Woodcutter (Spy and Thief look very male to me)
Female: Witch
Both: Feast, Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Adventurer, Library

INTRIGUE
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Coppersmith, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Saboteur, Scout, Steward, Swindler, Torturer, Tribute
Female: Courtyard, Harem
Both: Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Both: Herbalist (either the man is the herbalist or both are)
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble (there are two women in the back, right?)
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Madman, Marauder, Mercenary, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: -
Both: -
Unknown: -

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 107.1 = 78.2%
FEMALE: 29.9 = 21.8%

UNKNOWN: 8

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE: 17.9%
INTRIGUE: 16.7%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 33.3%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 61.7%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 12.4%
GUILDS: 20.8%
PROMOS: 0.0%

« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 03:58:42 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 12:27:21 pm »
+1

Here's what I got so far for Adventures. Just 11 of the 20 known cards show people.

ADVENTURES
Male: Duplicate(?), Hireling, Borrow, Transmogrify, Giant
Female: Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Guide, Messenger, Swamp Hag, Lost Arts, Storyteller
Both: "Tracking"
Unknown: "Quest"

Percentage of female cards: 54.2%

This changes the total to 24.5% female cards for now.

EDIT: Learned from Donald that Messenger is a woman, and added "Tracking" and "Quest" (cards leaked in French)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:22:34 pm by Jeebus »
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Seprix

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2015, 12:33:28 pm »
+1

Must everything be about identity politics?
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 12:35:59 pm »
+3

Must everything be about identity politics?

It's about visibility.  Why is "male" the default?  And that's all I'm going to say on that subject.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 12:40:31 pm »
+3

Unknown: Messenger
The Messenger is a woman. It's clearer on the big art.

For Guilds, most of the cards were illustrated by women. They still mostly drew men though (with only Taxman demanding one in the title).
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2015, 12:49:50 pm »
+3

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 12:53:32 pm »
0

Possession also shows a man in that pretty lady's crystal ball.

werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2015, 12:59:34 pm »
+5

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

Animal and plant species are a subject for biologists.  The lack of other races (Mandarin not withstanding) can be waved away by saying Dominion ostensibly takes place in Europe, which is mainly white people.  Same reason there's no real clamor for a black or Asian Robin Hood or King Arthur.

But women make up half the population everywhere.  By just portraying men, you're ignoring half of the entire population.  And that's just kind of silly.

As for being a disinterested 3rd party, being part of a minority (I'm gay) leaves me with a particular empathy for other under-represented groups.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2015, 01:05:54 pm »
+5

Oy, people, stay on topic!

Just don't turn it into a... discussion, I guess
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Voltaire

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2015, 01:08:29 pm »
+1

Quite pleased to see the (apparent) change with Adventures. Huzzah!
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2015, 01:16:49 pm »
+22

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
Similarly, why isn't there a poster named AsiansCantSayNo?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2015, 01:18:31 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:20 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.

At this point, it's for consistency.  There's also some precedence for "he" serving as a gender neutral pronoun.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 01:24:10 pm »
0

And yet the cards continue to assume that all the players are male.

At this point, it's for consistency.  There's also some precedence for "he" serving as a gender neutral pronoun.

I can believe it's a reason, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly good one. And that precedent stems from that same "male as default" assumption you just pointed out. People may recognize its use as such, but it's still rather dismissive.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2015, 01:29:16 pm »
+10

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...

As a human, I actually have a vested interested in seeing other humans treated like humans!
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2015, 01:39:02 pm »
+1

Quest seems to be indeterminate, and Tracking quite obviously has both.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2015, 01:39:35 pm »
+8

People! With just a few exceptions, your posts should all be going in the other thread. Here you go: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11646

I'd rather not have this thread disappear to RSP too.

Let's just talk about whether the cards are correctly categorized or something. I know that means this will be a mostly silent thread, but that's okay. I just want to document this.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 01:40:40 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2015, 01:40:21 pm »
0

Quest seems to be indeterminate, and Tracking quite obviously has both.

Ooh, haven't seen those cards! Where are they?
EDIT: Found the "French" thread, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 01:41:47 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 02:00:45 pm »
+3

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 02:03:04 pm »
+1

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

What about demand?  There are quite obviously players who want to see women in the card art, including Donald X himself.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2015, 02:04:08 pm »
0

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

What about demand?  There are quite obviously players who want to see women in the card art, including Donald X himself.

I'm for equality too, but it's not as big a deal as people make it to be, at least here in the US.

It's true that half the population in the depicted time were women, but less than half worked in the jobs depicted in dominion. (the patriarchy made it extremely difficult for women to do anything but household management. This is why I don't have a problem with the imbalance - it realistically portrays the gender imbalance in jobs at that time. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with a modern library card game having mainly women - that's just the way things are, and the 'should' doesn't get into it.

...The patriarchy?
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2015, 02:29:29 pm »
+2

It's about visibility.  Why is "male" the default?  And that's all I'm going to say on that subject.
EDIT: I was responding to wero but I just noticed the OP said that "if you want to argue why, go to the other thread."

Whoops. I'll leave what I had here in 1pt font, carry on
The reasons are biological and unavoidable, but it gets a big rise out of a lot of people to say and explain this. Politically correct people would rather pretend the reason is some mix of:

(a) stupidity/ignorance
(b) old-fashioned social constructs
(c) malice, i.e. from some secret -- or subconscious! -- male-promoting cabal who don't want women to do meaningful things in society.

But, the simple reason is biology.

When you picture a woman, you're depicting something that half of the population (i.e. men) either instinctively desires or instinctively wants to protect from harm.  And the other half (i.e. women) are well aware of those instincts and how much it affects everything. These instincts exist for reasons that are 100% biological, as sex and reproduction are always key biological drivers. There are certainly many social constructs that echo this biology, but that is because biology drives them to develop, so biology is still the root cause for pretty much all the male and female stuff you see expressed (in many different ways across many cultures)

So when you want to picture something more neutrally, you use a man for the scene.  Using a woman for the same scene changes the audience's impression of a scene, either marginally or more intensely, which the artist may not want - or may just not want to risk, even if it's minor to what they're doing. Also depicting women is more complicated in many ways, as immediately people start judging the work partly based on how attractive or unattractive she is or how safe or dangerous the situation appears to be for her.  When you use a man, such variables matter less, and people will focus more on whatever else you're trying to convey.

So biology is the reason.  Some of the people reading this may not want to accept or choose to acknowledge this reason.  But it is the reason nonetheless.  I'll go out on a limb and suggest it makes a heck of a lot more sense than anything else you'll hear in this thread as an explanation.

It's funny to think of how all the male-female stuff we see would disappear if male and female sexuality disappeared.  It really would! We'd all be androgynous and just not give a damn. You'd get to see much closer to idealized 50/50 splits everywhere.  And that includes Dominion card art.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 02:57:23 pm by Gherald »
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theory

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 02:51:18 pm »
+6

Please keep this related to Dominion specifically.  General discussion about gender issues belongs in RSP.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2015, 03:03:28 pm »
0

Where are all those similar threads complaining about, or at least pointing out, the unequal share of Blacks, Asians, Muslims, animals, species of flowers and trees, etc.

I wonder what it is about women that makes disinterested 3rd parties suddenly want to leap to their defense...
The lack of other races (Mandarin not withstanding) can be waved away by saying Dominion ostensibly takes place in Europe, which is mainly white people.  Same reason there's no real clamor for a black or Asian Robin Hood or King Arthur.

But women make up half the population everywhere.  By just portraying men, you're ignoring half of the entire population.  And that's just kind of silly.

Women make up half the population everywhere, but they haven't made up half the action everywhen, sadly.  Males were very dominant for all but the last, like, two hundred years or so?  Powerful queens or Joan of Arcs were the exception, not the rule.  And Dominion seems to me to take place even earlier in the middle ages than when queens started getting some appreciable bits of power over affairs.  Portraying a man on most every card is just as historically accurate as portraying a white guy on most every card.  The cards almost all represent someone who has a job, or power, or military role, so given the time period that's going to be a man.  The knights stack already has five more women than is historically accurate, so why doesn't it have two more black horseman or asian horseman than would be accurate too?

If you want Dominion cards to represent women to an extent that is knowingly disproportionate to historical knowledge about the time period, then it is only fair to do the same with blacks, asians, paraplegics, arabs, indians, and everything (I didn't capitalize enough words in this post, sorry).
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2015, 03:12:41 pm »
+2

Unknown: Adventurer

Man, I thought for sure it was a dude!



:))
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