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Author Topic: Illusionist (Reserve card)  (Read 14076 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Illusionist (Reserve card)
« on: April 07, 2015, 08:31:53 pm »
+3

It's time for fan cards the use the new mechanics!
I had the idea for this card earlier, but it didn't seem good as a reaction. So when I saw how the reserve mechanic works, I thought that would be perfect for my Illusionist card.

Quote
Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
Any time a card considers the type of another card(s), you may call this to change the effective type of a card. All copies of that card in your deck, hand, or discard pile use the chosen type until the end of that turn.
Combos with Scout!

EDIT: Update with current version of the card:
Quote
Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
Any time an action card considers the type of another card(s), you may call this to change the effective type of a card by adding a type or replacing the card's type. All of your copies of that card use the chosen type until the initial card is resolved.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 08:14:31 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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dondon151

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 10:26:47 pm »
0

Would this counter Mountebank? Call it to add the Curse type to your Coppers, or something.
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enfynet

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 10:28:59 pm »
+1

Does Mountebank refer to Curse (name) or Curse card (type)?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 10:34:00 pm »
+1

This anti-combos with scout. You change the type of an action to victory so that scout will pick it up, but now it's not an action, so you can't play it. It should probably add the type instead of replacing the old one.

And it's an issue with curses, because everywhere that "Curse" is used, there's no rules clarification if it's a curse the card or curse the type.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 11:21:26 pm »
+1

As written, this anti-combos with scout. You change the type of an action to victory so that scout will pick it up, but now it's not an action, so you can't play it. It should probably add the type instead of replacing the old one.

And it's an issue with curses, because everywhere that "Curse" is used, there's no rules clarification if it's a curse the card or curse the type.
FTFY
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 11:55:06 pm »
0

Let's try to make this clearer:

Quote
Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
Any time a card considers the type of another card(s), you may call this to change the effective type of a card by adding a type or replacing the card's type. All copies of that card in your deck, hand, or discard pile use the chosen type until the end of that turn. (You may not use the curse type.)
I wonder if I can still fit that on the card...

GendoIkari

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2015, 12:49:58 am »
0

So with this, you can play any action as a treasure during your buy phase. Not sure if this would cause any rule issues.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2015, 01:25:22 am »
0

"All copies of that card in your deck, hand, or discard pile appear to other cards as the chosen type until the end of that turn." ?

pacovf

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2015, 04:14:16 am »
+1

Does Mountebank refer to Curse (name) or Curse card (type)?

Name. It says "Discard a Curse", not "Discard a Curse card".
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pedroluchini

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2015, 08:12:25 am »
0

How about:

Quote
...you may call this to name a card and name a type. All copies of the named card acquire the named type until the end of your turn.

Is there a particular reason you want to restrict this effect to the player's own cards?
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Asper

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2015, 08:53:38 am »
0

How about:

Quote
...you may call this to name a card and name a type. All copies of the named card acquire the named type until the end of your turn.

Is there a particular reason you want to restrict this effect to the player's own cards?

"Each other player gains a Curse card."
Last in order calls this as it's his turn and gains a Province.

Also i would stick closer to inheritance. "All your copies of that card gain that type."

Edit: I think it still causes a bit too many rules confusions, though. More than Inheritance, probably.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 08:55:25 am by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2015, 09:12:07 am »
0

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).
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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2015, 10:49:31 am »
+3



What is a "Silver card"?

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

People bring up this objection all the time, but we now have Inheritance/Pirate Ship (and already had Guilds/Pirate Ship).  I don't think it's a big deal.
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popsofctown

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2015, 11:02:06 am »
+2

Can't you just go simpler?

"Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this.  If you do, all cards gain all types except Curse until end of turn."
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pacovf

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2015, 11:11:22 am »
0



What is a "Silver card"?

Oh, I hadn't noticed this. This raises more questions than it answers...

Quote
"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

People bring up this objection all the time, but we now have Inheritance/Pirate Ship (and already had Guilds/Pirate Ship).  I don't think it's a big deal.

What's the Inheritance/Pirate ship problem?

Can't you just go simpler?

"Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this.  If you do, all cards gain all types except Curse until end of turn."

This is going to be so, so confusing.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 11:29:02 am »
+1

Can't you just go simpler?

"Illusionist
$4  Action - Reserve
+$2. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this.  If you do, all cards gain all types except Curse until end of turn."

This is a cool idea, but it allows you to play all of your Action cards as Treasures, effectively giving you infinite Actions that turn.

Really this whole concept is not worth it, sadly.
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AJD

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 11:33:20 am »
+2

What's the Inheritance/Pirate ship problem?

The Inheritance / Pirate Ship problem is, Pirate Ship says you get +$1 per coin token you've taken "with Pirate Ship". If you use Inheritance on Pirate Ship, then some of those coin tokens are going to have been taken with Estates, not with Pirate Ship, but you have no way of tracking which is which. Donald has ruled that we should disregard that and read it as if it says "per coin token on your Pirate Ship mat" (and read the rest of the card as if it tells you to put the coin tokens you get on your Pirate Ship mat, which we were already doing anyway).
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AJD

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 11:37:23 am »
0

(And there's already precedent for what Pirate Ship does being different that what the card says, since the card says "take a Coin Token" same as Baker and so on, but you can't use the tokens you collect with Pirate Ship in the same way you can use the tokens in Guilds.)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 01:22:17 pm »
+2

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

Where are you getting this rule that "Curse" means "The card named Curse", while "Curse card" means "A card with the Curse type"? As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules like that. In fact, Spice Merchant seems to prove this wrong. It says "trash a Treasure", not "trash a Treasure card."

Anyway, lots of times in the past people have tried to create fan cards with the Curse type, and they have always been rejected as a bad idea because it's undefined in the rules how this would interact with cards that refer to "Curse".
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xyz123

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 01:57:42 pm »
0

Would you be allowed to specify a dual type card?

Could this lead to some weird interactions where you count victory cards as actions or treasures so you can play them? It would be another different card to power up Hall of Plenty. Another treasure card to power up Bank. Another action card to reduce the cost of Peddlers, etc.
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Asper

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 04:14:10 pm »
0

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

Where are you getting this rule that "Curse" means "The card named Curse", while "Curse card" means "A card with the Curse type"? As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules like that. In fact, Spice Merchant seems to prove this wrong. It says "trash a Treasure", not "trash a Treasure card."

Anyway, lots of times in the past people have tried to create fan cards with the Curse type, and they have always been rejected as a bad idea because it's undefined in the rules how this would interact with cards that refer to "Curse".

I think it's the kind of rules issue that Donald would just wipe away, saying "And that's how it is.". Like he did with Duration Attacks. Or cards that gain from the trash. Declare it is that way, and ta-dah! It works.

I do agree with LastFootnote though, the Actions-as-Treasures thing is really broken and ugly.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 04:48:22 pm »
0

Wouldn't this wording help?
I know it's probably getting too wordy, but I can figure a way to reduce the words once I find a good way to restrict it.

"All copies of that card in your deck, hand, or discard pile appear to other cards as the chosen type until the end of that turn." ?
This would prevent playing actions as treasures since they only appear to other cards as the chosen type.

GendoIkari

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2015, 06:43:31 pm »
0

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

Where are you getting this rule that "Curse" means "The card named Curse", while "Curse card" means "A card with the Curse type"? As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules like that. In fact, Spice Merchant seems to prove this wrong. It says "trash a Treasure", not "trash a Treasure card."

Anyway, lots of times in the past people have tried to create fan cards with the Curse type, and they have always been rejected as a bad idea because it's undefined in the rules how this would interact with cards that refer to "Curse".

I think it's the kind of rules issue that Donald would just wipe away, saying "And that's how it is.". Like he did with Duration Attacks. Or cards that gain from the trash. Declare it is that way, and ta-dah! It works.

I do agree with LastFootnote though, the Actions-as-Treasures thing is really broken and ugly.

I'm not sure what you mean. What duration attacks or gaining from trash rules did Donald have to come up with? With "curse" vs "curse card", it's simply an issue of using 2 different wordings to mean the same thing. Just like "silver" vs "silver card", or "treasure" vs "treasure card".
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Asper

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2015, 07:51:25 pm »
+3

"Each other player gains a Curse card."

I just noticed that this sort of precludes any future card with the Curse type: only Witch, Sea hag, Embargo and Torturer refer to "Curse cards", all other cursers just instruct you to gain a "Curse".

(if a card with the Curse type was added, those four cards would leave you a choice as to which card you gain; all others would force you to gain plain ol' Curse).

Where are you getting this rule that "Curse" means "The card named Curse", while "Curse card" means "A card with the Curse type"? As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules like that. In fact, Spice Merchant seems to prove this wrong. It says "trash a Treasure", not "trash a Treasure card."

Anyway, lots of times in the past people have tried to create fan cards with the Curse type, and they have always been rejected as a bad idea because it's undefined in the rules how this would interact with cards that refer to "Curse".

I think it's the kind of rules issue that Donald would just wipe away, saying "And that's how it is.". Like he did with Duration Attacks. Or cards that gain from the trash. Declare it is that way, and ta-dah! It works.

I do agree with LastFootnote though, the Actions-as-Treasures thing is really broken and ugly.

I'm not sure what you mean. What duration attacks or gaining from trash rules did Donald have to come up with? With "curse" vs "curse card", it's simply an issue of using 2 different wordings to mean the same thing. Just like "silver" vs "silver card", or "treasure" vs "treasure card".

I'm referring to card ideas that were greatly discouraged in the past, only to be implemented by Donald later. People (including me) said that there shouldn't be Duration Attacks, because their interaction with Moat was weird. People said there shouldn't be kingdom cards for $8, or $7 even, because those would compete with Province or close an important strategical gap. People said that gaining cards from the trash was a bad idea because it would make the game last forever... Or something.

Donald did those, and whenever something was unclear (plausible from the rules, but maybe confusing), he just said how it's done, and then nobody questioned it anymore. He didn't so much come up with new rules, just explain how certain things interact.

So i think if somebody wants to do his own Curse card, he should just go for it. Make clear thatt "Curse" and "curse card" both refer to a type (similarly to how "Treasure" and "Treasure card" both refer to a type) and all rules problems are solved. Unless Donald comes up with something different, but hey, any fan card can be killed by official cards - and if it is because they are too similar.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Illusionist (Reserve card)
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2015, 08:52:41 pm »
+3

The thing about Duration Attacks wasn't that the rules are unclear about how they should work, just that it can be confusing for some and difficult to track, so fan card designers should be careful about it.  Donald tested and decided it was worth any confusion.  Cool.

Price gap arguments were stupid.

I don't think any of those changes actually required removing past rules.  Adding new Curse-type cards would.  Suppose we have:

Cuss
Cost: $0
Type: Action-Curse
+1 Buy
Worth -2VP

OK, first you have to decide what it means when cards say "Curse" vs. "Curse card".  The easiest solution is to say that they all refer to the card type rather than the specific card, otherwise all the junkers arbitrarily change in value and balance relative to each other.  If the meaning of the terms is kept consistent, at least all the Cursing cards will remain in balance compared to each other.  This is a fine change.

Now you have to rewrite what it means for setup.  You have to put a specific number of Curses in the Supply depending on the number of players.  But what about Cusses?  Do they count as Curses for this, or is that setup rule specifically referring to the specific Curse card?  If the latter, how does Cuss even enter this game?  If Cuss is in this game, do you put in fewer Curses to compensate?  These questions are not trivial to answer.

Now when I play a Witch, do you get a Curse or a Cuss?  From the new ruling, either should work, but if both are available, who chooses which type you get?  Other cards specify for similar circumstances, but none of the existing attacks do.

And of course, it also really throws off the balance of a big class of cards.

A fan could certainly go for it anyway, but this is a lot more problematic than Duration-Attack or $1 card.
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