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Author Topic: Champion and Teacher speculation  (Read 19740 times)

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markusin

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2015, 09:38:21 pm »
+2

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Champion might be a more confrontational card. It might have an effect like "Name a Treasure card. Each other play <digs> until revealing the named card. He trashes that card. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards". The Hero doesn't care to be confrontational, but the Champion has to maintain her status by competing against others.
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pst

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 02:08:56 am »
0

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Or maybe just "Gain an Action card", gaining King's Courts and Possessions easy as that?
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markusin

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2015, 07:15:55 am »
0

If anything, it will be Teacher that has some sort of Action card gain effect. You know, the Teacher teaches others to do jobs, like Universities do. Remember? University? Gain an Action card costing up to $5?

Or maybe just "Gain an Action card", gaining King's Courts and Possessions easy as that?
Yeah that's what I'm thinking, just like Hero had unbounded treasure game. Although, Hero is at a level before Teacher.
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joel88s

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 06:35:16 pm »
+17

From the Teasers:
- +$3, +$4, and +$5

Since it'll take a long time to fully upgrade the Page/Peasant, my guess is that the +$4 or +$5 is found on at least one of the Champion/Teacher.

+$5 is already on Giant.
You're right! I forgot about that.
Don't feel bad, so does the Giant half the time.
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ephesos

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2015, 09:47:00 pm »
0

Teacher:
Gain an Action card from the Supply and play it.

Really powerful, but it has to do something better than just gaining the Action card, since by the time you'll get to play it, the game's probably almost over. Unless you have both good engine and/or strong trash, you're probably playing it every 2.5 turns or so, and you need to upgrade it 4 times to play it once. So you're really only getting like two Teacher plays out in most games.

Chapel Teacher is faster, so you could get a few more plays out, but something like Develop Teacher probably still only plays it two times. Also if Chapel's on the board, someone can probably end the game by just playing other cards.
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easwaran

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2015, 03:56:34 pm »
+1

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2015, 04:47:52 pm »
+1

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.
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werothegreat

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2015, 04:55:01 pm »
0

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

But there are kingdom Treasures more often than $6+ Actions, and Hero can help Feodum.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2015, 05:21:21 pm »
+3

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

But there are kingdom Treasures more often than $6+ Actions, and Hero can help Feodum.

I think that's a stretch. Sometimes you'll want those Kingdom Treasures over Gold, but usually not. You're not gaining Loan or Talisman or even Quarry with your Hero. And if Hero is your Feodum enabler, you're gonna have a bad time.
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AJD

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2015, 06:47:13 pm »
+1

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

…And Hero is better than Soothsayer (for some functions), since in addition to gaining a Gold it gives you +$2 right now, which Soothsayer doesn't do.
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easwaran

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2015, 07:15:22 pm »
0

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

…And Hero is better than Soothsayer (for some functions), since in addition to gaining a Gold it gives you +$2 right now, which Soothsayer doesn't do.

Furthermore, Hero and Soothsayer are both at the $5 price point, while University is in some sense a lot cheaper than Champion/Teacher, and also has the bonus +2 actions. But perhaps Teacher is +2 action, +$2, Gain an Action - that's certainly substantially stronger than University, even if there are no $6 or $7 actions.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2015, 09:08:07 pm »
+3

Hero might have a cost of $5, but it's not really at the same price point as Soothsayer.
You can't actually buy it for $5.
I think it's very difficult to compare costs between cards that are in the Supply and those that aren't, especially in the case of the Travellers.
How do you quantify the cost of playing a card a turn for three turns to get a Hero?
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Orange

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 07:36:07 am »
+1

Champion
Return this to the Champion pile.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 08:43:03 pm by Orange »
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blaisepascal

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 12:29:06 pm »
+2

Champion
Return this to the supply.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)

Champion is not in the supply.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 03:27:57 pm »
+1

Remember that on a lot of boards there are no $6 or $7 actions, so University is often already +2 actions, Gain an Action, so Teacher needs to be better than that.

I don't think this line of thinking holds. There's often no better Treasure than Gold, yet Hero exists despite Soothsayer.

1. Hero can often be better than Soothsayer (maybe?).  It gives you +$2 now and doesn't make the opponent draw (in exchange for not giving them a Curse).

2. More importantly, Hero isn't the last card in the chain, so it doesn't need to make sure it's strictly better than cheaper cards.  Maybe the whole point of getting Hero is to upgrade it to Champion.  If Champion were worse than Soothsayer, that would be bad.  I think that's the much more appropriate comparison.
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Orange

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2015, 08:42:40 pm »
0

Champion
Return this to the supply.  If you do, take any number of cards from the Supply with a total cost of no more than $15.  (You may not take any cards with a cost of $0.)

Champion is not in the supply.

Fair enough.  Fixed.
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shmeur

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2015, 09:29:22 pm »
0

Is there any possibility that Champion and Teacher may both involve a Champion/Teacher token?  It at least would make sense for Teacher to teach a supply pile or something.  I don't know.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2015, 03:55:12 pm »
+1

So in my opinion, Champion is a lot stronger than any of the guesses here. That's mostly just based on speculation; I've only played it once.
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TheOthin

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2015, 04:04:54 pm »
0

I was not expecting them to have those kinds of permanent effects, but it's very fitting. And also suits the last guess, except Teacher uses existing tokens and Champion gives a different sort of benefit as a second permanent Duration.

Teacher seems very flexible; its Reserve status seems mostly like a downside but it does mean you get to make a decision based on what will immediately benefit you. Interesting that it can't stack tokens, but the events that place those tokens can.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2015, 04:07:17 pm »
0

I was not expecting them to have those kinds of permanent effects, but it's very fitting. And also suits the last guess, except Teacher uses existing tokens and Champion gives a different sort of benefit as a second permanent Duration.

Teacher seems very flexible; its Reserve status seems mostly like a downside but it does mean you get to make a decision based on what will immediately benefit you. Interesting that it can't stack tokens, but the events that place those tokens can.

Yeah, my feeling was that no stacking tokens weakens it a good bit, which must mean that it was way too strong without the restriction (just assuming that the first idea didn't have it). The reserve does seem that it's mostly just meant to delay your token even more than it already is. So it didn't sound nearly as strong to me as Champion, but who knows.
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TheOthin

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2015, 04:17:46 pm »
0

I mean that you can't have Teacher put a token on a pile that already has a different token.

Teacher is definitely slower to get its benefit; Champion does everything in one play while Teacher can take as many as four to take full effect. So it'll probably better suit longer games, like Prince.

The Reserve status does stop you from getting the benefit the turn you play Teacher.
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markusin

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2015, 04:29:27 pm »
0

I mean that you can't have Teacher put a token on a pile that already has a different token.

Teacher is definitely slower to get its benefit; Champion does everything in one play while Teacher can take as many as four to take full effect. So it'll probably better suit longer games, like Prince.

The Reserve status does stop you from getting the benefit the turn you play Teacher.
More than that, you can't put it back on the tavern mat the turn you call it. So, you can only add another token 2 turns later with the same Teacher. I think you'll have to be lucky to have a game last long enough to get 2 tokens moved through Teacher.
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shmeur

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2015, 04:45:29 pm »
0

I was so wrong haha.  Am I the only person immensely pleased that the Teacher line is male while the Champion line is female?  Reversing gender roles ftw.
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pacovf

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2015, 06:55:21 pm »
+1

I think the reserve/start-of-turn thing has more to do with helping tracking and less to do with power.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2015, 08:01:44 pm »
0

I think the reserve/start-of-turn thing has more to do with helping tracking and less to do with power.

What do you mean? What tracking issue could there be if you simply got the effect when you played teacher?
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