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[werothegreat]

It's Tuesday!  Time for another card of the week, and this week, we'll be talking about... Moat!

I'll start the discussion with a few questions:

* For which Attacks is it worth getting a Moat for?
* Do you ever get Moat when there are no Attacks in the kingdom?
* Have you ever used Moat purely for draw?
* Is Moat a *good* card?
* Should people who make Moat jokes be put in the stocks for a day?

[liopoil]

Moat is not a good card. Moat is a baaad card. Just ask Ozle. I personally enjoy buying moat, trashing moat with watchtower, discarding market square, topdecking gold.

[DG]

Yes you can make a drawing engine using moats but it needs good support just like ghost ship, oracle, steward, witch, and so on. If moats will work then the cheap cost becomes a major advantage.

Moats are obviously better in defense in multiplayer games. Nothing wrong with moats.

[Awaclus]

* For which Attacks is it worth getting a Moat for?

Depends on your strategy, your deck size, your terminal space, your opponent's deck, and the opportunity cost of getting the Moat (which is relevant for $2 cards because if you really want it, you usually have to overpay for it, but on the other hand it could also be the decision between Moat and nothing on a $2 hand). Getting a Moat against a Militia in a typical slog mirror is ridiculous, but getting a couple of Moats against a Militia in a Council Room engine mirror can be pretty good.

[Eevee]

Moat is a fairly good card especially when you have ways of ensuring you draw it in your starting hand. It's often very inconsequential, but it would totally change the game if it was added as the 11th card reasonably often, which should count for something.

[GendoIkari]

Sometimes you just have a lot of extra +Action lying around. In this case, Moat is a $2 Laboratory. I've been beaten before by an opponent using Moat as Lab.

[jsh357]

Moat is underrated by a lot of players.  Totally blocking attacks is really nice (not to mention it gives you a choice unlike Lighthouse), and if you have spare actions it doesn't hurt to buy an appropriate number of them.  Building an engine with them is not generally the best idea, but in those weird half-engine games where you can't totally get running because of attacks, Moat makes an excellent addition to your deck.

Of course, the big drawback to Moat is that you can't always control when you'll have it in hand.  Moat works a little better in thinner decks as a result, though if you can stay thin there are often better buys.

If you have an attack to fear and the draw is semi-helpful, you should probably buy a Moat or two.  It's also a $2 pile, which means it's not so hard to run if you can amass them safely.  Not the best $2 card, but far from the worst and certainly not an outright bad one. 

hurr hurr Lost Arts makes them a Lab hurr

[werothegreat]

hurr hurr Lost Arts makes them a Lab hurr

Inheritance gives you three free Moats!

[shark_bait]

As with all defense cards, when you play with more than 2 people it becomes much more important to mitigate damage from attacks. 

[GendoIkari]

hurr hurr Lost Arts makes them a Lab hurr

Hey if you put all 4 "basic" tokens on Moat, then it's like playing a Market and then 2 Labs!

[xyz123]

It is more useful the more players there are as you are going to be attacked more often.

It also is rarely a defence strategy on its own. When using it against junking attacks I like to think of it as delaying the attack rather than blocking it. Sooner or later your opponent will play their attack card when you do not have Moat in hand. You need to be doing something else to ensure those junk cards do not ruin your deck.

[markusin]

It is more useful the more players there are as you are going to be attacked more often.

It also is rarely a defence strategy on its own. When using it against junking attacks I like to think of it as delaying the attack rather than blocking it. Sooner or later your opponent will play their attack card when you do not have Moat in hand. You need to be doing something else to ensure those junk cards do not ruin your deck.

This is true. With Cultist though, blocking a Cultist chain just once can be a lifesaver. It can give you the time to fire off your own chain soon afterwards.

In 2 player, Moat is good when the +2 Cards effect is actually desirable. It shines in very trim decks that can reliably play villages. Small decks also increase the chance of having Moat in your starting hand, to the point where attacks won't connect often enough to be worth it.

[GreyICE]

Moat is one of those cards that increases in value drastically as the game size increases.  Your chances of being attacked literally doubles and triples as the game size scales.  I think that the evaluation Moat = Bad is done for 2 player Dominion alone.  In 3 it's good, and in 4 it's often mandatory.  Getting to skip an entire round of Witches or Torturers can be game changing.  Nevermind Ghost Ship, which can become its own lock condition just by virtue of 4 player.  Or the horror that is 4 players who all like Noble Brigand in a setup where you don't have money actions.  Just a lot of things you want to opt out on, and Moat lets you do so. 

Most of my in-person games are 4+ players, so I really get to see how it swings.  Moat is one of the weirdest scaling cards in the game.  It's well designed, but it's not designed with 2 in mind. 

I also think the Lost Arts interaction is EXTREMELY powerful.  Moat is the cheapest +2 Cards in the entire game.  Imagine using something like Quarry or Bridge and then swooping up 4-5 pseudo-Labs in a single turn.  Even paying "full price", they're $2 labs, which is the sort of thing that can turn unreliable engines into winning ones.  I'd say it's better than a Lost Arts Rabble.  Plus Moat-Labs let you sit out every attack in the game once you get a good number (and it's so easy to do so).

[Chris is me]

Moat is a great example of a card that is pretty much AWFUL in 2 player, but much better in larger games. Kind of like Thief, except you still don't usually want Thief in multiplayer anyway.

In a lot of decks, you're trading immunity from attacks in exchange for at least one dead card in your hand most of the time. Either the dead card is Moat itself if you have another terminal action, or the terminal action that you inevitably dead draw when you play Moat. Moat Big Money isn't a serious strategy in many games, but I guess in a multiplayer junk flood it will win faster than someone being pelted with Curses in all directions could.

It's not terribly good in engines either, because you need Moat in your hand, so you still want a Moat every 5-10 cards or so. That requires more Villages, and then you still don't have good card draw, so you still need that to an extent... it's just not a good time trying to build an engine with Moat as your defense.

I'm really struggling to find situations in 2 player where Moat really is the best option. It just isn't, really. I guess really, REALLY big attack payloads like Cultist which can only be fired a few times would LOVE a Moat to make sure you're not on the receiving end of a giant Cultist chain.

[enfynet]

hurr hurr Lost Arts makes them a Lab hurr

Inheritance gives you three free Moats!

... for $7

[Rubby]

* For which Attacks is it worth getting a Moat for?

Completely depends on the board and what enablers and/or counters are available. (Also, too many "for"s there.)
Also, this:

Defending is much more powerful in 4P then it is in 2P. In 2P, if you play with moat/moat against someone who plays with witch/witch, you will lose bigtime. In 3P it will be close. In 4P if you're the one with the moats while all the other players have the witches you just win.

* Do you ever get Moat when there are no Attacks in the kingdom?
* Have you ever used Moat purely for draw?
* Is Moat a *good* card?

The first two of these are pretty much the same question, and the third is a closely related one. As others have said, Moat can at times be an important source of draw, but is not generally one of the better $2 cards.

* Should people who make Moat jokes be put in the stocks for a day?

The running Moat gag is old and tiresome; I will say that the one thing it had going for it is that some words are intrinsically funny, and well, Moat is one. Heh heh, Moat.

[GreyICE]

Moat is an okay answer to a Ghost Ship engine.  If you're both putting together an endless Ghost Ship machine, Moat can block one of the Ghost ship turns, which resets the entire ordeal.  Really, any sort of sifting is probably better, but if you're unreliable at hitting 5 for more Ghost Ships, it's a decent purchase.  Definitely won a game of that where we were both going Ghost Ships + FV and were starting to struggle.  The board was fairly unexciting overall if I remember, and we'd split FVs.  Might not have been the best buy, but I feel like it made a difference to actually get a real 5 card hand and not have 2 recycled cards on the next turn. 

Edit: This was in answer to "is it ever worth buying to answer attacks in 2 player?"

Edit2: By "Ghost ship engine" I mean "Deck that can hit opponent with Ghost Ship every turn without colliding terminals".  Maybe it's the wrong usage?  Getting hit by Ghost Ship every turn if you can't answer in kind is usually the end for you, barring specific strong counter cards.

[Awaclus]

Moat is an okay answer to a Ghost Ship engine.  If you're both putting together an endless Ghost Ship machine, Moat can block one of the Ghost ship turns, which resets the entire ordeal.  Really, any sort of sifting is probably better, but if you're unreliable at hitting 5 for more Ghost Ships, it's a decent purchase.  Definitely won a game of that where we were both going Ghost Ships + FV and were starting to struggle.  The board was fairly unexciting overall if I remember, and we'd split FVs.  Might not have been the best buy, but I feel like it made a difference to actually get a real 5 card hand and not have 2 recycled cards on the next turn. 

Edit: This was in answer to "is it ever worth buying to answer attacks in 2 player?"

Well, if a Ghost Ship engine is even remotely viable on a kingdom, then a Moat engine surely is. They both draw +2 cards, but Moat costs $2 while Ghost Ship costs $5.

[dondon151]

Here's an Iso-era log where Moat won me the game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130103-193234-02b55098.html

Summary: Colony game, Ambassador, no +buy or gainers, Platinum payload. At the beginning of turn 10, I'm ahead in the Amb war, as shown by substantially better deck composition. However, michaeljb picks up a third Amb on turn 12 and I get some Amb collisions, so at the beginning of turn 16 I've fallen slightly behind. michaeljb ends up getting Platinum a turn before I do, and he also has first player advantage.

Moat saves me in the endgame by blocking michaeljb's Amb numerous times. michaeljb, lacking Moat, is hit by my Amb every single time. His deck stalls from the green and he eventually becomes unable to return junk faster than it comes, and Moats not only help to keep my deck clean, but they also provide auxiliary draw in the presence of a glut of +actions from City. After michaeljb plays 4 of his Cities on turn 26 and triggers a reshuffle, I'm extremely confident that I can pick up the penultimate Colony and win on the next turn with the final Colony.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Moat is a great example of a card that is pretty much AWFUL in 2 player, but much better in larger games. Kind of like Thief, except you still don't usually want Thief in multiplayer anyway.

In a lot of decks, you're trading immunity from attacks in exchange for at least one dead card in your hand most of the time. Either the dead card is Moat itself if you have another terminal action, or the terminal action that you inevitably dead draw when you play Moat. Moat Big Money isn't a serious strategy in many games, but I guess in a multiplayer junk flood it will win faster than someone being pelted with Curses in all directions could.

It's not terribly good in engines either, because you need Moat in your hand, so you still want a Moat every 5-10 cards or so. That requires more Villages, and then you still don't have good card draw, so you still need that to an extent... it's just not a good time trying to build an engine with Moat as your defense.

I'm really struggling to find situations in 2 player where Moat really is the best option. It just isn't, really. I guess really, REALLY big attack payloads like Cultist which can only be fired a few times would LOVE a Moat to make sure you're not on the receiving end of a giant Cultist chain.

I think this is a common misconception. Yes Moat is significantly weaker in 2p than in 4p, but it's still very playable in 2p. For example, in a Curse game with no trashing, you often want Moat. If you block 1 Curse on the 2nd or 3rd shuffle, that's one less dead card in your deck every shuffle for almost the whole game, and it can make a difference in the Curse split, which is 2 VPs, and +2 cards isn't terrible.

In an engine it's fine, particularly if you have some sifting to make the +2 cards stronger. In engine games, your opponent if probably attack you more than half the time anyway, so you almost always get something out of the reaction. You don't need it in your hand every turn. Just on the turns you have it, it's an advantage.

[Ozle]

Argh.

Worst card ever, terrible at terminal draw, a poor defence (you should just get more attack cards).
It's a little bit of several things and poor at them all.

Bad at two player. Stupid at 3 and 4 player.

When you just have base there are not many kingdoms where you are going to be picking up Moat and thinking YES! A moat!

My secret histories reveal that it's only out there because another cheap card was needed for newbies to buy.

I also agree that anyone posting moat jokes should be banned, that was originally invented just for the puzzle thread and it's really old!

[dondon151]

I think the two biggest problems with Moat are its dead-ness and its lack of reliability. Moat being a dead card when drawn with another terminal means that it's usually not very good early in the game when you have few to no villages in your deck and literally almost every other terminal is better (usually this is the attack that Moat is supposed to be defending against). This also means that Moat is not a great defense against junking attacks much of the time because these attacks are most powerful near the beginning of the game and become weaker near the end of the game because the junk runs out.

There's also no way to ensure that Moat will even adequately defend against an opponent attack because it has to appear in the initial 5-card hand for its reaction to work. +card durations do not alleviate this at all because they don't draw in the clean-up phase. Cards such as Courtyard, Mandarin, or Count can top-deck Moat from hand to hand, but of course these are all terminal. Top-of-deck sifters such as Cartographer, Apothecary, or Scout can increase the likelihood of Moat being in the next hand. There's also Scheme, but that requires having played the Moat.

So when Moat is good, it's typically when these two problems get addressed. If your opponent is attacking you every turn with an attack that can do something every turn, and if the attack significantly decreases the likelihood of you reaching some goal either immediately or in the future, then Moat becomes more useful. Additionally, if there is a way to accommodate multiple Moats in your deck with low opportunity cost, or if one of the above interactions can be executed with low opportunity cost, then Moat becomes more useful.



The game that I posted above satisfied both criteria. Ambassador continues to attack throughout the entire game, and the attack threatens a player's ability to control the endgame. I could gain multiple Moats because its action component increased the reliability of my deck and it's the best purchase in low-economy hands where I used Ambassador to return Coppers. However, gaining the Moat early would have been a very poor decision because even though it would defend against the occasional Ambassador, it would also be a completely dead card otherwise.

[Gherald]

I had an Ambassador/Bazaar game where I bought my second Moat for on turn 12, and a third Moat with on turn 16.

That was different.  (The real hero of the game was the Trader, though!)

[GreyICE]

Out of curiosity, would Rebuild have been good there?  I've almost never seen a board when it's bad, and with Ambassador slowing the game down it seems better than usual.

[chipperMDW]

There's also no way to ensure that Moat will even adequately defend against an opponent attack because it has to appear in the initial 5-card hand for its reaction to work. +card durations do not alleviate this at all because they don't draw in the clean-up phase. Cards such as Courtyard, Mandarin, or Count can top-deck Moat from hand to hand, but of course these are all terminal. Top-of-deck sifters such as Cartographer, Apothecary, or Scout can increase the likelihood of Moat being in the next hand. There's also Scheme, but that requires having played the Moat.

Expedition is another thing that would increase the chances of seeing Moat in your starting hand.