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Author Topic: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?  (Read 55476 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2015, 03:50:47 pm »
0

Some of the Travellers might be more useful than their exchangees.  Treasure Hunter in Feodum games.  Also Soldier turns attacks into a +coin sort of; this could be good with cantrip attacks (Urchin/Familiar).  I don't know.

Definitely. Once you get one of the top level, anyway. I remember choosing not to exchange other travelers several times. Especially to avoid Treasure Hunter. Also, sometimes you have Disciple with no actions in hand. Happened to me and my opponent; we both chose to play it for the exchange anyway, but it's an annoying decision.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 03:54:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2015, 03:52:42 pm »
+1

Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed?  Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?

That sounds correct.

I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
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shmeur

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2015, 03:54:07 pm »
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I love the strategy the Traveller cards present.  It adds a cool layer to the game.  Also, though unrelated, Artificer's art reminds me of Baker (and looks really strong tbh; imagine how it'd work with Counting House).
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Gherald

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2015, 03:59:48 pm »
+2

Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed?  Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria".  So that doesn't disprove.

It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2015, 04:10:45 pm »
+1

Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed?  Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria".  So that doesn't disprove.

It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.

Ah, from the faq wording, which I was looking at, it sounded more like discard all then trash. But from the wording on the card, you're right. So Tunnel very well could save itself; will definitely need a ruling on this one.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2015, 04:14:07 pm »
+2

Yeah I looked in the FAQ to see if that question would be answered, but it just made it even less clear.  The wording of the card doesn't match the explanation in the FAQ in my opinion.  I'm guessing the FAQ just says it that way because it's clearer to people who don't understand the card, and really they are happening one at a time.
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dondon151

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2015, 04:49:01 pm »
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.

I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.
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shmeur

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2015, 04:54:08 pm »
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Horse Traders > Wine Merchant.  Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
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Awaclus

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2015, 05:00:50 pm »
+2

Horse Traders > Wine Merchant.  Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.

I don't think they're really comparable. Horse Traders helps you hit mid price points (i.e. exactly $5) reliably, Wine Merchant helps you hit high price points ($7+) unreliably. You don't buy a Horse Traders in order to luck out an early King's Court, and you (probably) don't buy a Wine Merchant in order to keep buying Duchies and Dukes reliably.
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markusin

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2015, 05:04:12 pm »
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.

I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.
I imagine Wine Merchant playing out in a particular way when it's the only +Buy card in the kingdom. You play it and maybe buy a VP card and an engine component, or 2 engine components, or just 2 Provinces. The next turn you buy Province for 10 or more. Rince and repeat. Yeah, that sounds slightly better than an engine with no +buy but still not particularly exciting.

Oh but it might be good in the context of Adventures with all the expensive events.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2015, 05:08:14 pm »
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For those discussing Wine Merchant, it's not great, but the trick is playing more than one Wine Merchant so that you only pay the $2 once for all of them.

I am aware of this, but terminal coin at $5 with a drawback still seems extraordinarily weak. Wine Merchant seems to be on the same or lower power level as Mandarin or Harvest.

Well, it's definitely not. It's almost a joke to compare it to Harvest, come on, it's got a +buy! You get it when you need +buy, or somehow have actions to spare (maybe your draw engine is Lost Cities, or some village with the +card token (oh hey Wine Merchant can help you hit $8 for Pathfinding)). I don't know what to tell you, it's not a power card. It's just a Woodcutter variant that can give you spikes in money, or pretty good money period if you play multiples.

FWIW it's worth I thought it was garbage too until I played some games with it. And then I decided it has its uses and is not at all comparable to Harvest/Mandarin level stuff.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 05:15:02 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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TheOthin

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2015, 05:09:37 pm »
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Wine Merchant can be a $5 Woodcutter. Woodcutter is weak even at $3, but when it's worthwhile it can stay worthwhile even at high prices. Of course, the more you can play, the more cost-effective it gets.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2015, 05:15:08 pm »
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Surely wine merchant should be compared to merchant ship? Both give $4 total. Merchant ship splits over 2 turns, wine merchant give a buy but is semi-one shot.
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Gherald

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2015, 05:19:14 pm »
+2

Horse Traders > Wine Merchant.  Though I could see WM having a niche in certain games.
I don't think they're really comparable. Horse Traders helps you hit mid price points (i.e. exactly $5) reliably, Wine Merchant helps you hit high price points ($7+) unreliably. You don't buy a Horse Traders in order to luck out an early King's Court, and you (probably) don't buy a Wine Merchant in order to keep buying Duchies and Dukes reliably.
Exactly this.  Better comparisons I made earlier are to Baron and Death Cart. You know when you want those, so think about when you want Wine Merchant in a similar way.

To people saying it's not a "strong" card, what is the point of this? There are very often times when you'd want a Wine Merchant or two in your deck, and that's all a card needs to do to be a nice addition to Dominion.

As long as we're making trivial complaints, my biggest beef with this card is the art! Man, who wants to be seen around that guy? I'm scooting to the other edge of the tavern, bro.

Surely wine merchant should be compared to merchant ship? Both give $4 total. Merchant ship splits over 2 turns, wine merchant give a buy but is semi-one shot.
I... really don't think the two cards are at all comparable in what you need them for, other than costing 5 and providing virtual coin.

Though, that does raise the old point that Merchant Ship should have the +buy instead of Wharf.  If Merchant Ship had that buy it'd be comparable to Wine Merchant, but it doesn't so it isn't.
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Awaclus

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2015, 05:25:43 pm »
+1

Better comparisons I made earlier are to Baron and Death Cart. You know when you want those

Mostly just Baron, I think. The main reason why I buy Death Cart is because that way I can empty the Ruins pile for a 3-pile ending.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2015, 06:14:14 pm »
+7

...Oh dear god.

"Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains two Silvers! Player A buys a Silver!"
"Player B plays Treasure Hunter! Player B gains three Silvers! Player B buys a Silver!"
"Player A plays Throne Room! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers! Player A plays Treasure Hunter! Player A gains four Silvers!"

I have seen a single Treasure Hunter gain 16 Silvers. True story.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2015, 06:21:39 pm »
+1

Predictions and things that remind me of other past things!

Champion gives you +1 Action when you play an Action.  Back in the Treasure Chest contest for Cornucopia, my winning card did something similar:

Quote
Storyteller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. If this is the first time you played a Storyteller this turn, +1 Action.

While this is in play, when you play an Action card that you don't already have a copy of in play, +1 Action.

Clarification: The first Storyteller you play only gives you +1 Action, not +2 Actions, because it wasn't in play when you played it.

I've definitely seen the basic premise of Raze before (TfB like Apprentice/Salvager, but for filtering).  I think it was in one of the forum design contests, but I can't seem to find it.  I guess it wasn't a winner.  But hey, credit to whoever had that idea.

(I'm catching up on the thread before posting this; I see that Archetype has quoted his Observatory fan card for this.  I remember that thread; I'm still wondering if it also appeared in a design contest before that.)

I'm pretty sure that I've seen something like Gear in a design contest too, but that's even hazier than the Raze-like card.

Caravan Guard lets you play it out of turn and it just flat out states that the +1 Action doesn't do anything for you when that happens.  I'm pretty sure I've seen fan cards that let you play them or another card out of turn, which I criticized because getting +1 Action or +$1 out of turn is meaningless.  Apologies to those people. :P

I think I've seen Port before (exactly as written, or almost so).  Again, don't know where.

Artificer's discard-to-gain Vault/Workshop combo is familiar; I think it was in a design contest at some point.

Bridge Troll has definitely appeared in multiple fan card incarnations (all worse than the official implementation).

Wine Merchant uses the Reserve mat as a penalty.  I had suggested that at some point (can't find it right now), but Wine Merchant does it in a different way.  It keeps itself on the mat until you meet a requirement, whereas my idea was to have a "while this is in your Tavern" effect which was negative and made you want to call the card sooner rather than waiting for the perfect time.

I correctly speculated here that the tokens would include a cost reduction token and a trashing token, except I did not predict that it would be an on-buy trash.

Travelling Fair is the +2 Buys event and it costs $2.  Just as predicted!

- An event that gives you +2 Buys.  I think this is totally a thing that can happen.  When this idea came up before, the abuse case was primarily due to cost reduction, but Events are unaffected by Bridge and the like so it should work fine.  I would guess $2 for +2 Buys.  (I see that you have this in the OP as well.  I think $1 cost is too easy though).





Miscellaneous comments:

- Wine Merchant looks like Kingpin.

- Masterpiece/Trader/Feodum with Page (Treasure Hunter!), and Trade and Raid for events.
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AJD

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2015, 06:40:19 pm »
+1

Yeah I looked in the FAQ to see if that question would be answered, but it just made it even less clear.  The wording of the card doesn't match the explanation in the FAQ in my opinion.  I'm guessing the FAQ just says it that way because it's clearer to people who don't understand the card, and really they are happening one at a time.

Also, lots of card FAQs (especially in the early expansions) address what happens if you have to reshuffle in the middle of resolving a card, but this one doesn't. Based on the way the card is worded, you presumably reshuffle in any (untrashed) cards that you discarded before having to reshuffle; that's different enough from the way cards like Cartographer work that the fact that the FAQ doesn't explain this is kind of confusing.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2015, 06:44:50 pm »
+4

Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed?  Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
I'm not sure about this... If you discard multiple at once, then a card can get trashed even though it's been covered up, in the same way that Tunnel can be revealed even though it's been covered up. So I don't see why covering it with Gold would protect it.
The discard and trashing is resolved one-at-a-time, not "first discard all, then trash all that meet criteria".  So that doesn't disprove.

It's pretty counterintuitive that you get to keep the tunnel...an interesting case.

Ah, from the faq wording, which I was looking at, it sounded more like discard all then trash. But from the wording on the card, you're right. So Tunnel very well could save itself; will definitely need a ruling on this one.
With 3 Travellers in play, you discard, maybe trash, discard, maybe trash, discard, maybe trash.

Yes covered-up cards are lost track of.
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Moneymodel

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2015, 07:18:30 pm »
0

I'm going crazy over the audacity of Port, guys. It's like getting Talisman when Village is on the board, but YOU DON'T NEED A COPPER IN YOUR DECK.

I'm going to be a parrot and say how ridiculous Champion is, but that's because it is. True, in the absence of enablers you have to keep cycling and get the Champion. By the time you do, the curser's job will be done, and good luck playing the different Travellers if your opponent's Rabble engine keeps skipping them. But if Herald or Scavenger were on the board with Page, I would be hesitant to invest in any attack.

I'm going to enjoy taking these Travellers on their journeys. Though am I the only one confused that the page doesn't turn into a teacher and the soldier doesn't turn into a champion? That's the unpredictability of life, I guess.

Raze is that lovely Gambler variant (Enterprise) that I was hoping to see official at one point.

Caravan Guard looks to be the "crazy taboo breaker" of the set.

Gear is a Haven-lover's dream. Gives more options and a bigger pool to set aside at the expense of it being terminal.
Save, I will always buy with an important reaction on the board. Always. Alwaaaaaayyyyyyyyssssss. Though obviously it's no good with Beggar or Market Square.

I don't think there's a card I'm more excited to see used in play than Artificer. It's a Peddler that can choose what you draw next if you have more than one of them. Of course, you need good draw to give yourself options, but meh, when has that ever not been the case?

Distant Lands...eh? It's cool-looking, and it's refreshing to finally see a 5-cost alt-VP other than Duke. But like, it's an expensive Island that doesn't psuedo-trash. Sure it can be worth twice as much VP, but only if you get to play it, so it's really just as much as Island on average. Obviously it's best if you have tight control over your deck, but you'd better if you're going to get a card that costs the same as Duchy, is worth 1VP more if things go as planned, and is worth 3VP less if they don't.

Relic!!!!! There's the Treasure-Attack. I was, and still am, probably way too excited for this.

Treasure Trove! Is it better than Cache? Probably. Is it better than Silver? Probably only in money games. Seems pretty straightforward, honestly.

Most of the events I really feel like I have to play before saying ANYTHING about them. The mechanics are just so different, especially since they use player tokens far more than the cards do. But Ferry, as someone already mentioned, can solve that frustrating BoM problem of choosing a powerful 5 over it. Also the price points clearly tell us that cards are better than coins, which are better than buys (Pathfinding, Training, Seaway). We have the answer now.
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TheOthin

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2015, 07:31:53 pm »
0

Buying a Lab increases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.

Buying a Duchy or Distant Lands decreases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.

Playing a Distant Lands increases your draw-your-deck ability by one card.

Sounds pretty solid to me. If your engine can afford to buy, draw, and play one every turn, you're getting 4 VP every time without clogging your deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2015, 07:40:59 pm »
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Though am I the only one confused that the page doesn't turn into a teacher and the soldier doesn't turn into a champion? That's the unpredictability of life, I guess.

...

Also the price points clearly tell us that cards are better than coins, which are better than buys (Pathfinding, Training, Seaway). We have the answer now.

A Page is basically a knight-in-training, so it makes sense that she eventually becomes the champion.  The oddest thing in that line is Treasure Hunter, which I take to be a kind of "rebellious youth" phase.

The Peasant line makes sense too.  He gets drafted into a war he never wanted to be in and it changes him.  He wanders as a fugitive before settling down into a more peaceful life.

+1 Card has more potential than +1 Coin because the card you draw will often be better than a Copper.  We certainly knew that +1 Buy is "worth" less than the other vanilla bonuses because of Sir Martin.  The key thing is that your first extra Buy is worth a lot, but the next Buy is worth much less (in most decks).  It has rapidly-diminishing returns.
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TheOthin

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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2015, 07:57:56 pm »
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It's worth comparing to cantrips. Village, a cantrip +Action, costs $3, while Lab, a cantrip +Card, costs $5. Peddler variants indicate that a simple cantrip +Coin would be priced somewhere around $4, as better versions get priced at $5 and worse versions get priced at $3, so it's somewhere between the value of cantrip +Action and cantrip +Card in any case. Meanwhile the closest thing to cantrip +Buy is Market Square, which has the same $3 cost as Village but with a Reaction bonus, so that's clearly valued less.

The token cards show a similar heirarchy but with +Coin having the same value as +Action rather than higher. I suspect this relates to the diminishing returns exhibited by +Action and +Buy but not by +Coin and +Card. It's a lot easier to ensure that the extra Action from Lost Arts will get used than from Village.
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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2015, 08:36:11 pm »
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Plan: !!!! Yes! Wow! This is really good trashing. This card might allow you to skip buying a trasher altogether. Hell, Village can become a trasher. I don't know. As far as trashers goes, I have a feeling this is up there with the likes of Steward. This is actually probably better. Not Chapel strong, but really damn strong. Man, I can actually live the dream and open Village, or better yet, Port.

You realize Plan lets you trash a card when you buy from the pile with the token, not when you play a card from that pile, right?

Oops! I misread. Still solid
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Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2015, 08:42:25 pm »
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Thoughts on card strength...

Gendo brought this up in a Fan Cards thread, but Ratcatcher seems pretty strong.  Cantrip trashing for $2 is a steal!  I think that the one turn delay for being a Reserve card will actually be significant though.  Nonetheless, I can imagine opening Ratcatcher/Ratcatcher.

The Caravan Guard reaction is interesting in that it might not actually defend you against anything.  It just gets you +$1 earlier and makes it less likely for the card to miss the reshuffle.  On its own, I can't think of any attack that it actually defends against.  Against discard attacks, it doesn't have the same drawback as other cantrips.  It helps a bit against Minion.  Not sure what else.

Hmm... I neglected to mention it above, but I think the effect on Dungeon was submitted in a design contest as well.  Dungeon seems pretty weak to me.  Well, it's weak when you play it and decent on the turn after that.

Miser looks like a much better version of Pirate Ship, but still not amazing.

Artificer looks like a killer combo with Scrying Pool.

Bridge Troll vs. Cutpurse, the first attack is stronger (guaranteed money cut) but it doesn't stack.  Bridge Troll vs. Bridge, Bridge seems better except Bridge Troll kicks in on your next turn as well, making it a little easier to get multiples into play.  That (and the attack) might be enough to make it preferable to Bridge, actually.

Treasure Trove sounds pretty good for money games... Actually, I think it might be really good with Gardens.  A weakness in many Gardens strategies is that it falls behind if it can't end the game fast enough.  With Treasure Trove, the extra Gold may actually help the Gardens player spike a couple of Provinces.  I don't know, maybe that's just crazy talk...

The Page line is pretty interesting, but I worry that it might be as centralizing as Cultist and Rebuild.  Champion is obviously extremely powerful, especially considering Warrior.  With Champion, every Warrior is a Lab and the attack stacks painfully.  Warrior only hits $3s and $4s, but I think most engines still rely on some of these mid-cost cards (cost reduction just makes her scarier).  Warrior herself costs $4, which means they can trash each other and really set another player behind.  I'm thinking that ignoring Champion could be disastrous even though it takes five shuffles to get her into play, just because a stack of warriors can be so destructive.  You have to race for it and hope to get a Hero before it's too late.  Hero can't die to Warrior (without cost reduction) so you can eventually get a Champion in play to stop a barrage of Warriors.  I guess it's a good thing that there are only 5 Warriors.  Other than that, it's worth noting that Treasure Hunter and Hero put treasures into your deck, which slows down Champion a little bit (she would prefer a deck full of actions, I think).

I like the Peasant line a lot.  Peasant has the same vanilla bonuses of Herbalist (and going by the art, he likes his herbs plenty).  Soldier is a fraction of a Militia.  Fugitive is that Lab+Discard we've heard about in the secret histories.  Disciple is a cool throne+gain and Teacher is a token-giver.  I actually see less mechanical cohesion in this Traveller line, but that's OK.  I think this is more of a support line that complements another strategy rather than being a strategy unto itself.  The first three cards all fit well enough into any strategy.  Disciple wants more actions and helps you get them faster, and then Teacher enhances your action-filled deck.  If Disciple has gotten you many terminals, you can move the +1 Action token there.  You can distribute the other tokens as desired.  I do wonder whether it was necessary to restrict Teacher from putting multiple tokens onto one card.  OK, yes, that could be very powerful, but Champion still seems like a bigger deal.  It would take a lot of work to play Teacher that much anyway!

Save seems like a really powerful Event.  It is really handy with Moat and Watchtower, at least!

How often is it a good idea to open with Bonfire to trash two Copper (or maybe Necropolis and Copper)?  Consider, it's often a good idea to open Great Hall just to trash Hovel.

Ferry seems like it could be ridiculous with BoM, Haggler, Border Village, etc.  Man, it might even make Talisman a really good plan...

I think Plan will be tough to play with.  You should probably buy it early if at all, and then you want to choose a pile that you want to drive that also isn't too expensive.  It seems a little less valuable for trashing Copper just because it means you have to keep the Copper in hand (thus costing you $1 that turn).

Also, I just noticed that Seaway is price-restricted... you can only move the +1 Buy token to the pile from which you gain a card, and that card has to cost $4 or less.  Huh!
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