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Author Topic: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them  (Read 16643 times)

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Ratsia

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2015, 03:53:18 pm »
+3

A couple of months later and many games, introduce Prosperity. Just skip Alchemy for now. (clip) I would save DA and Alchemy for much later.
I mostly agree with your way of teaching, but at this point I started wondering what the target audience is. I can't comprehend why you would want to hold on interesting parts of the game for months, "many games" and "for much later" for teaching purposes. If someone is not going to grasp the concepts well enough to digest all expansions in roughly 5 games, I wonder whether Dominion (with expansions) is the right game for them. A lot of people will only ever play any single game roughly 1-5 times anyway, so either they will need to grasp the rules by that time or they never will.

I would kind of understand keeping interesting content waiting for future wow occasions, especially if having Dominion as the only form of entertainment on a desert island, but not for teaching purposes. While the latest expansions are a bit complex, anyone who has played Dominion a couple of times (or a lot of board games in general), will have no trouble starting to play with any expansion right away.
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pedroluchini

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2015, 05:26:37 pm »
0

Also: No matter how tempting it is, do not touch other players' cards; tell them what they need to do and let them do it themselves.

(E.g., "No, that's your discard pile. You don't put the trashed Copper there, it goes in the Trash, which is here. Yes, like that.")
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AJD

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2015, 08:18:28 pm »
+3

The way I introduce Dominion is as follows:

Start off by defining the concept of deck building: each player has their own deck, gameplay chiefly consists of adding cards to your deck from the supply. Lay out the basic Treasure and Victory piles.

Introduce Victory cards: you win by having the most points, you score points by having these in your deck at the end of the game.

Introduce turn structure: Action phase ("which I'll come back to later"), Buy phase, Cleanup phase.

Describe buy phase: introduce Treasure cards and their values, play from your hand as many as you like, note supply cards have costs in corner, buy one card costing up to the amount of money you have, bought card goes in "your personal discard pile".

Describe cleanup phase: all cards played and all cards remaining in hand go to discard pile—"note this means you can't save cards you don't use from one turn to the next." Deal five new cards from draw pile.

Play second sample turn of buy and cleanup phases; introduce reshuffling. Point out this means that cards you buy will enter your hand to be used on a future turn after you reshuffle.

Introduce action phase: Play one Action card and do what it says. Use Smithy as simple example, and to demonstrate +Cards.

Use Village to demonstrate and explain +Actions. Use Woodcutter and Market to explain +Buy and +$.

"Action cards can have a variety of different effects." Illustrate discarding with Cellar, illustrate gaining with Workshop, illustrate trashing with Remodel. Point out gaining always goes to your discard pile "unless otherwise instructed"; illustrate with Mine. "Some Action cards have effects that attack other players"; illustrate with Militia. Illustrate and explain Reactions with Moat. Explain each game uses 10 kingdom cards but there are dozens to choose from; these 10 are the recommended set for the first game.

Point out the two key tensions: Victory cards are needed to score points but are dead during the game; Actions have powerful effects but by default can only be played one at a time.

Explain end-game conditions.

…And begin playing!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:55:13 pm by AJD »
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Voltaire

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2015, 10:23:48 pm »
0

I actually taught Dominion tonight to two new gamers (by which I mean that they're new to most games but not gaming, having played Ticket, Settlers, etc.). Just use "simple" cards at first that show each concept, and you really can't go wrong. Their first game had Oasis and some other cards from later sets, but when they're simpler like that, it doesn't matter. They loved it and asked to play a second time - I had fully intended to simply take them on a tour of "games you should play once," but nope, Dominion worked its magic!

For the second game I asked what they wanted, and they told me to surprise 'em. So out came Witch (their first curser), Duke, Poor House, and other "wait, this game gets weird!" cards. They loved it.
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dondon151

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2015, 10:27:50 pm »
+2

For the second game I asked what they wanted, and they told me to surprise 'em. So out came Witch (their first curser), Duke, Poor House, and other "wait, this game gets weird!" cards. They loved it.

So Ironworks, Great Hall, and Trader were in this kingdom? Did you get to exposit on blue dogs and pink elephants? That's how deep this game is.
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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2015, 10:30:26 pm »
0

That sounds like how I learned. Except San Juan was the test game.
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Polk5440

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2015, 11:54:06 am »
0

My approach is pretty similar to Chris is Me's approach. I make sure the first game is very basic -- no engine potential at all. Second game I usually set up some engine potential and play the engine.

I introduce the game while running through the first three turns of the game.

Second turn or so I say something like: "I'll buy Smithy, an Action. I could have purchased an Estate since it costs $2 and I can afford it. The Estate is worth one point, which would put me in the lead. Why not get it? Well, you can buy points, but they usually don't let you buy better stuff. Instead you can buy cards that let you buy bigger and better cards, and eventually more points. Notice Province costs $8 but is worth 6 points. I can't ever afford that unless I buy better cards. Dominion is a game of balance; early on you are buying cards that improve your deck or help you see your good cards more often but don't help you get points. Later, you buy points. And having the most points at the end of the game is how you win. The game ends when all of the Provinces are gone, or any three piles are empty."

Beyond this, I do not give strategy advice unless asked.

After the first three turns, I pull out the rest of the kingdom cards or if they are already set up, let my friends read all of the cards and answer questions about what they do. Then we begin the first game. I always go last. It keeps the game quick and allows people to play "for real". Also, I prefer teaching in the context of 3-5 player games. People usually feel like they have a chance even when playing poorly and get to see different people try different things.
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Polk5440

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2015, 11:54:12 am »
+1

I got into trouble when I taught my fiancee a few weeks ago. She was about to buy the last Province which would have tied the game, except she was first player. I never mention the tie-break rule until after the first game (because it's usually not close at all), but here it applied! She was not happy to not know about it before hand, so I guess I need to mention that from now on!
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markusin

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2015, 10:24:46 am »
+3

So, I introduced Dominion at a board game night yesterday. 4 players including me. One had already played Dominion, but the other two never did, but have played deck builders before (in fact, we had played Legendary just before). The idea was just to teach them the game so that if they were interested, we could all play Dominion for real next time we got together.

Due to their experience with decknbuilders, they were expecting a bit more from the learning experience that just the base cards and a single action card like Smithy. So, we started the game with Smithy, Village, and Market. I chose those cards because they are pure vanilla cards that showcase all the main vanilla effects and how they can influence your turns. They were actually quite disappointed at how useless the Estates were, but it was good to see them catch on to the drawback of green cards almost immediately (in fact they were hesitant to buy Provinces throughout the game, but of course you ultimately need VP to win).

A few turns in, I added Cellar on request to see more cards. A few turns after that, I introduced Militia. The player that had already played Dominion wanted me to show the defense card to Militia, and like a troll I introduced Library based on some of the discussion in this thread. I did add Moat too, but Library is nice because it shows the perils of dead draw by providing a solution to it (there was a lot of dead draw going on in our game). But man, explaining how Library actually works is a pain. It's the most confusing card in the Base set. I eventually added Remodel too (turn those Golds into Provinces?). As the game was coming to a close, I showed Throne Room to satisfy their desire for a wow factor.

We never finished the game, as some players needed leave for home. The game seemed to be well received, especially after showing Throne Room. It was the weirdest and funniest game of Dominion I ever played just because of how I ended up just trickling cards into the game. I wouldn't recommend teaching the game like this to players new to deck building or casual players in general, but that's how it played out for me.
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Polk5440

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2015, 11:00:32 am »
0

The player that had already played Dominion wanted me to show the defense card to Militia, and like a troll I introduced Library based on some of the discussion in this thread.

This is so great! I have definitely included Library and not Moat when teaching. I don't like using Moat even when teaching the game. I usually introduce Lighthouse, instead.
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theJester

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 11:03:20 am »
0

From my experience, it was never really needed to cater the board to the new players. I always simply draw 10 random cards (excluding Torturer and Spy) from 3 sets I won (Base, Prosperity and Intrigue), explain them rules, victory conditions and specifically what each kingdom card does. Only advice I tell them is to watch from 3-pile ending and play accordingly. That's it.

And people respond quite well. Regardless of the board new players were very pleased with the game and eager to explore various strategies and card combos they just discovered. Without every playing on "noob-friendly" board (or however you'd call it), new players invariably had fun with Dominion and asked for at least 1 more game. And cards they always liked playing with the best are ones that offer lots of player interaction. It's very pleasing to new players to hit 3 of their opponents with Witch, Saboteur or Rabble. It was amazing to have them play with Masquerade for a first time and see them mischievously grinning as they pass on Curse and receive Silver in return. And the card we have most fun with was definitely Contraband, and all the guessing which card should one prohibit from buying.

I think this element of exploring new possibilities and ways to play the game is quite important to a new player to actively enjoy from the game. As for myself, whether I learned something simple such as Resistance or something as complex as Terra Mystica or Agricola, independent "diving" into the game without expert guidance was best part of the learning experience. Same applies for Dominion as well.
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Voltaire

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2015, 11:07:32 am »
+1

From my experience, it was never really needed to cater the board to the new players. [snip] from 3 sets I won (Base, Prosperity and Intrigue) [snip] independent "diving" into the game without expert guidance was best part of the learning experience. Same applies for Dominion as well.

While I don't disagree with you, I think the sets you own are why you might see a difference here compared to others, or at least me - I also don't try to go too crazy in simplifying things, but putting out Dark Ages (for example) from the start may not be appropriate to some groups.
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werothegreat

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 11:57:19 am »
0

While introducing people with the First Game recommended kingdom is probably best pedagogically, I've played it so many damn times that it's just boring to play that kingdom now, so I try to mix it up as much as I think the new player can handle.
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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 12:12:58 pm »
0

While introducing people with the First Game recommended kingdom is probably best pedagogically, I've played it so many damn times that it's just boring to play that kingdom now, so I try to mix it up as much as I think the new player can handle.

I modify the first game kingdom in to keep it more interesting when introducing new players. I almost always drop Woodcutter. Village, Smithy, and Workshop stay for their simplicity. Then I vary some of the remaining cards.

Cellar/Warehouse (prefer Warehouse because it is simpler)
Market/Festival
Militia/Cutpurse
Moat/Lighthouse
2 of: Mine/Remodel/Moneylender/Junk Dealer/Upgrade (edit: Trading Post would be another good choice here as werothegreat mentions)
Floating slot: Harem, Explorer, and Hoard are common choices.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:21:44 pm by JW »
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werothegreat

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 12:39:52 pm »
+1

While introducing people with the First Game recommended kingdom is probably best pedagogically, I've played it so many damn times that it's just boring to play that kingdom now, so I try to mix it up as much as I think the new player can handle.

I modify the first game kingdom in to keep it more interesting when introducing new players. I almost always drop Woodcutter. Village, Smithy, and Workshop stay for their simplicity. Then I vary some of the remaining cards.

Market/Festival
Militia/Cutpurse
Moat/Lighthouse
Cellar/Warehouse
2 of: Mine/Remodel/Moneylender/Junk Dealer/Upgrade

Floating slot: Harem, Explorer, and Hoard are common choices.

My changes are usually:

Cellar -> Warehouse (easier to conceptualize anyway)
Mine -> Trading Post (ditto)
Remodel -> Salvager (ditto)
Militia -> Cutpurse (ditto)

Half the people I teach Militia to: "Wait, so I discard three cards?"

Workshop -> Smugglers (more interesting)

Sometimes I also swap out Market/Smithy for Bazaar/Courtyard, and possibly swap out Village for something else as well.  This has the interesting effect of actually making Woodcutter important in the kingdom as a source of +Buy.
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ednever

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2015, 10:01:29 pm »
+1

I've been successful doing this:

1- explain the rules
2- play first game kingdom. Use BM+Smithy strategy. Win by a lot
3- explain big money and how it works(worked). Talk through why their strategies did not work
4- play first game kingdom again. A lot will play a variation on big money. You play the optimal engine strategy and win again. By a lot
5- explain what engines are and why it worked. The trashing, gaining, +buys, etc
6- at this point they get very excited to build their own engines
7- play with new set. Include Witch. Learn about curses
8- next game used alt VP
9- now go nuts. On gain. Durations. Colonies. Tokens. Basically fully random.

Key is really the first three games.

Ed
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werothegreat

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2015, 10:11:52 pm »
+5

I've been successful doing this:

1- explain the rules
2- play first game kingdom. Use BM+Smithy strategy. Win by a lot
3- explain big money and how it works(worked). Talk through why their strategies did not work
4- play first game kingdom again. A lot will play a variation on big money. You play the optimal engine strategy and win again. By a lot
5- explain what engines are and why it worked. The trashing, gaining, +buys, etc
6- at this point they get very excited to build their own engines
7- play with new set. Include Witch. Learn about curses
8- next game used alt VP
9- now go nuts. On gain. Durations. Colonies. Tokens. Basically fully random.

Key is really the first three games.

Ed

I would honestly only do this if I were offering a "Dominion 101" college course; if you're just showing this to friends, I think this will just come off as pedantic and condescending.  Most people aren't going to be "wow, you won using just one card?  let's play five more games where you slowly show me the various layers of strategy!"  They're going to think "wow, you won using just one card?  This game is pretty damn shitty.  Let's never play it again."  I have the most success doing the First Game kingdom (or a variant of it) and play it like I would any other board (though maybe going easy on the Attacks).  Seeing me play a ridiculous Village/Smithy/Market/Mine/Remodel engine is much more of a hook than Smithy/BM could ever possibly be.  Most people I show it to are all "wow that's ridiculous let me try that again!"  And then I throw in Moneylender and Throne Room and Witch and let them see just how wacky games of Dominion can be.
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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2015, 10:21:19 pm »
0

I've been successful doing this:

1- explain the rules
2- play first game kingdom. Use BM+Smithy strategy. Win by a lot
3- explain big money and how it works(worked). Talk through why their strategies did not work
4- play first game kingdom again. A lot will play a variation on big money. You play the optimal engine strategy and win again. By a lot
5- explain what engines are and why it worked. The trashing, gaining, +buys, etc
6- at this point they get very excited to build their own engines
7- play with new set. Include Witch. Learn about curses
8- next game used alt VP
9- now go nuts. On gain. Durations. Colonies. Tokens. Basically fully random.

Key is really the first three games.

Ed

I would honestly only do this if I were offering a "Dominion 101" college course; if you're just showing this to friends, I think this will just come off as pedantic and condescending.  Most people aren't going to be "wow, you won using just one card?  let's play five more games where you slowly show me the various layers of strategy!"  They're going to think "wow, you won using just one card?  This game is pretty damn shitty.  Let's never play it again."  I have the most success doing the First Game kingdom (or a variant of it) and play it like I would any other board (though maybe going easy on the Attacks).  Seeing me play a ridiculous Village/Smithy/Market/Mine/Remodel engine is much more of a hook than Smithy/BM could ever possibly be.  Most people I show it to are all "wow that's ridiculous let me try that again!"  And then I throw in Moneylender and Throne Room and Witch and let them see just how wacky games of Dominion can be.
I build the first game as we play. Basically going through all those points in one single game.
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werothegreat

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2015, 10:25:08 pm »
0

I've been successful doing this:

1- explain the rules
2- play first game kingdom. Use BM+Smithy strategy. Win by a lot
3- explain big money and how it works(worked). Talk through why their strategies did not work
4- play first game kingdom again. A lot will play a variation on big money. You play the optimal engine strategy and win again. By a lot
5- explain what engines are and why it worked. The trashing, gaining, +buys, etc
6- at this point they get very excited to build their own engines
7- play with new set. Include Witch. Learn about curses
8- next game used alt VP
9- now go nuts. On gain. Durations. Colonies. Tokens. Basically fully random.

Key is really the first three games.

Ed

I would honestly only do this if I were offering a "Dominion 101" college course; if you're just showing this to friends, I think this will just come off as pedantic and condescending.  Most people aren't going to be "wow, you won using just one card?  let's play five more games where you slowly show me the various layers of strategy!"  They're going to think "wow, you won using just one card?  This game is pretty damn shitty.  Let's never play it again."  I have the most success doing the First Game kingdom (or a variant of it) and play it like I would any other board (though maybe going easy on the Attacks).  Seeing me play a ridiculous Village/Smithy/Market/Mine/Remodel engine is much more of a hook than Smithy/BM could ever possibly be.  Most people I show it to are all "wow that's ridiculous let me try that again!"  And then I throw in Moneylender and Throne Room and Witch and let them see just how wacky games of Dominion can be.
I build the first game as we play. Basically going through all those points in one single game.

I go through the points as I'm putting out the Actions before we even start playing.  Explain Smithy draws cards, but you can only play one.  How can I play more than one Action?  Well, I can play as many Markets as I like, but still only one Smithy.  But I want to play more than one Smithy!  Well, here's Village... etc.
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Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2015, 06:22:49 am »
+7

We  introduced Dominion to a friendly couple over the past two weekends. Unfortunately we have the base and intrigue sets only in Norwegian, and my Aussie female friend is not particularly good at the language of the country she's lived in for five years or so. So for the first game I had to remake it into Seaside/Cornucopia/Prosperity equivalents. No cursers, Lighthouse for defence, Rabble for draw and attack, Cutpurse as replacement for Militia, Warehouse for Cellar, Treasury for Market, Bazaar and Workers Village as splitters. In the second game we swapped out the unused Cutpurse for Fortune Teller ("a weak Rabble").

This weekend they came back, and we were six people with kids included, so we split into two groups.

Her husband needed to get effects repeatedly explained through several games, and their daughter was entirely new to it so my dear patient husband took it upon himself to teach them using our norwegian boxes. But the wife was awesome - on her third game (where my son insisted we add Sea Hag) she articulated Hamlet as a 'potential' Workers Village. The fourth game was KC as only splitter and Menagerie for +actions (Smuggling 3 lighthouses? Yes, please.). On her fifth (just me and her in 2p) we had moved on to "I have vault, Bishop and Horse Traders - how to get the most mileage out of my junk".

I may have moved a bit fast introducing Grand Market, Native Village and Bishop all in one go, but as long as she was picking up the concepts fast enough, the next step really is strategy and getting the most out of the cards. She and I have already agreed on meeting again on Tuesday for more playing..  8) I haz a convert.
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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2015, 04:45:52 pm »
+2

I've had success recently using Soothsayer as the first game attack. New players like gaining Golds, and the attack hurts less than other cursers because of the bonus card. I've also used Oasis instead of Warehouse to teach people about discarding, as suggested here.

Most recent first game variant was: Courtyard, Workshop, Oasis, Village, Smithy, Remodel, Duke, Festival, Soothsayer, Junk Dealer.

Cutting Moat for Courtyard means that I don't have to explain reactions, and Junk Dealer is an obvious counter to Soothsayer. Duke is a simple alt-VP, but could be easily changed to a different kingdom VP card or treasure.
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Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2015, 12:45:41 pm »
+1

For game 2, keep 5 cards from the previous game and introduce 5 new cards. Why? The 5 cards are familiar. This makes it quicker to learn the 5 new cards. Whereas is you go with 10 all new cards, it is almost like learning the game all over again. Also, this makes it easier for new players to memorize the 5 cards from the previous game. Essentially, this speeds up the learning curve and makes it both quicker and easier to learn the game.

My guests often express discomfort with changing too many cards - they feel like they'd "just started to get the hang of it". I try to swap out 3-4 of the weaker cards with powerful, yet still easy to understand cards. Laboratory and Council Room are my personal faves: people seem to like the interaction Council Room provides, and they can take a shot at Council Room-Militia.

Quote
For game 3, mix things up. If you have been doing engine games, go for a slog. If your first two games lend more big money, try to make it more of an engine thing. Also, game 3 would be a good time to introduce Witch and Moat or Gardens. Or even all 3.
That sounds like good advice. Thanks for the discussion!

Quote from: pubby
should you sandbag?
I *totally* do. Winning is fun, and I want them to have as much fun as possible in the first games. I say, "now for myself, I'm going to try an unusual strategy that might not work. Don't try to follow me, but use your own best judgement." I also try to go for 3-4 player games to start.

Most of my friends are casual gamers who haven't played MTG or anything similar.

I just always ask people how much strategy advice they want, if any at all.
You know, I never thought to ask? That seems pretty obvious now.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 12:55:18 pm by ancientcampus »
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