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[Beyond Awesome]

Right now, as it is, we see Colonies pretty rarely. One thing that irks me is that we see Colonies less than Shelters. With Adventures coming out, Colony games will be pretty rare.

Also, I think the whole you must have a Prosperity card to play with Colonies is a bit silly. You can have a game with just Loan and have Colonies show up. One could argue that cost should be taken into consideration for how to randomize Colonies, but I do not feel that way.

Overall, I think Colonies and Shelters should show up as equally as each other and not be bound by DA and Prosperity cards. They are fun and add intriguing elements to the game.

What I am thinking is that after some debate we can link this thread to the Features Thread David from MF made.

Anyway, my proposal is that a d10 or d20 is rolled every game once for colonies and again shelters. What is everyone else's thoughts? Right now, as it is, I don't believe the system works, and well, the Colony and Shelter rules are suggestions in the rule book, if I recall correctly.

[Awaclus]

I'm not a big fan of Colony games, so I'm rather pleased with the fact that we'll be getting them less often.

[qmech]

The way things are currently set up, Colonies are about twice as likely as any individual card to show up, Shelters about 3 times as likely, and this will remain true however many more cards are released.  I'd not thought about things in this way before, and it makes me happier that Colonies and Shelters are never going to be as rare as Scrying Pool or Goons, which still seem to show up often enough.  I wouldn't oppose a move to make them more frequent, but with Events we're going to have lots of new types of games soon, so the need is not as urgent as I'd first thought.

[eHalcyon]

I think it's fine to have Shelters be a little more common than Colonies.  Shelters usually don't make much of a difference anyway, whereas Colonies have a bigger impact more often.

[sudgy]

You could just pick a random two of the cards in your kingdom instead of one to decide if you want Colonies or Shelters.

[Donald X.]

Overall, I think Colonies and Shelters should show up as equally as each other and not be bound by DA and Prosperity cards. They are fun and add intriguing elements to the game.

What I am thinking is that after some debate we can link this thread to the Features Thread David from MF made.

Feel free to pick when to use them however you want, as always.

They occur at the chosen rate in order to match how often you see other elements from that set. To me, Colony is part of Prosperity; if I have just the main set and Prosperity I want it show up half the time, if I have two more big sets I'd like to see it a fourth of the time. Dark Ages being larger than Prosperity doesn't bother me.

You can pitch whatever you want to MF, but I am betting I can just pick what I want there, hooray for me. And what I want is for you to be able to pick when to use them (like a button to click on to get them), but for the default to be the rulebook rule (for those things, not for the Alchemy 3-cards thing which I do not advocate).

[popsofctown]

Kingdom design and selection is kind of a broader question and I don't think Colonies and Shelters are a special case.  Well they are a special case, but not enough of one, just one where it seems more natural to question the dominion bible.

Online play is kind of different from offline play and kingdom selection rules, like other design choices, are optimized for offline play.  And when the online play is being used as a gateway from offline play straight over to online play MF is going to want to stick to that to maximize customer acquisition and stuff.  That's how most people end up playing online, right, except for the two or three of us who played online before buying physical cards.

Making Fun isn't really going to have an economic imperative to explore variant rules on kingdom selection, just like they have reduced economic imperative to implement Archivist for a week for trips and giggles, even though that's something that might also help someone have a good time.  Similar for something like a veto mode.  The only people interested are already paying at the maximum level of payment so how's it going to turn a dime over.

I figure the best way to get some better or different kingdom selection stuff going on is to discuss it on the forum, try to find some middle ground with expert players on what kind of deviation from the rulebook you can get a majority of people to say, "yeah, it's more fun that way", and then make an external app and play games with those kingdoms based on what you've all agreed on.

[theblankman]

I figure the best way to get some better or different kingdom selection stuff going on is to discuss it on the forum, try to find some middle ground with expert players on what kind of deviation from the rulebook you can get a majority of people to say, "yeah, it's more fun that way", and then make an external app and play games with those kingdoms based on what you've all agreed on.

And then get a nice letter from a lawyer working for MF or RGG or Donald X?  There used to be third party dominion apps.  They were asked to shut down when the licensed app went live, and I'm pretty sure they were legally obligated to comply.

[eHalcyon]

I figure the best way to get some better or different kingdom selection stuff going on is to discuss it on the forum, try to find some middle ground with expert players on what kind of deviation from the rulebook you can get a majority of people to say, "yeah, it's more fun that way", and then make an external app and play games with those kingdoms based on what you've all agreed on.

And then get a nice letter from a lawyer working for MF or RGG or Donald X?  There used to be third party dominion apps.  They were asked to shut down when the licensed app went live, and I'm pretty sure they were legally obligated to comply.

pops is talking about using something like Salvager to randomly choose kingdoms.

[ednever]

One option I would love implements on Goko:

Pro game
It randomly chooses 2 expansions
It chooses ten cards at random from those two expansions

I believe this is the way DXV plays the game and the way new expansions are tested. It would allow a lot of the cards that don't do well in fully random to shine a little more (even make Scout better...)

It's the way I play IRL, especially when a new expansion comes out.

It also think it would maintain the integrity of the pro system since it would still require ability to play all the cards and interactions between them.

Ed

[Kirian]

One option I would love implements on Goko:

Pro game
It randomly chooses 2 expansions
It chooses ten cards at random from those two expansions

I believe this is the way DXV plays the game and the way new expansions are tested. It would allow a lot of the cards that don't do well in fully random to shine a little more (even make Scout better...)

It's the way I play IRL, especially when a new expansion comes out.

It also think it would maintain the integrity of the pro system since it would still require ability to play all the cards and interactions between them.

Ed

I would be very interested in seeing that as an option at least.

[popsofctown]

I don't really like the idea of a pro rating being shared across two different kingdom selection methods though.  It'd be like your blitz rating and slow rating being blended on a chess server.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I believe this is the way DXV plays the game and the way new expansions are tested. It would allow a lot of the cards that don't do well in fully random to shine a little more (even make Scout better...)

It is how he does his IRL testing, but online he usually just does half new stuff plus all random. My understanding is that the two expansion system is mostly for convenience. It seems most of the testers online do roughly half new + random, but when LF makes kingdoms he uses the two set system.

I don't like the two set method that much, but it can't hurt as an option. Likelihood of this ever being implemented seems real low.

I don't really like the idea of a pro rating being shared across two different kingdom selection methods though.  It'd be like your blitz rating and slow rating being blended on a chess server.

The kingdom selection methods would have to be very different before this would be an issue. The option proposed here isn't going to muck up ratings at all.

[LastFootnote]

One option I would love implements on Goko:

Pro game
It randomly chooses 2 expansions
It chooses ten cards at random from those two expansions

I believe this is the way DXV plays the game and the way new expansions are tested. It would allow a lot of the cards that don't do well in fully random to shine a little more (even make Scout better...)

It's the way I play IRL, especially when a new expansion comes out.

It also think it would maintain the integrity of the pro system since it would still require ability to play all the cards and interactions between them.

Ed

I believe an option for "choose 2 sets, choose 5 cards from each (with Promos)" was one of Donald's requests for the new version.

[theblankman]

I figure the best way to get some better or different kingdom selection stuff going on is to discuss it on the forum, try to find some middle ground with expert players on what kind of deviation from the rulebook you can get a majority of people to say, "yeah, it's more fun that way", and then make an external app and play games with those kingdoms based on what you've all agreed on.

And then get a nice letter from a lawyer working for MF or RGG or Donald X?  There used to be third party dominion apps.  They were asked to shut down when the licensed app went live, and I'm pretty sure they were legally obligated to comply.

pops is talking about using something like Salvager to randomly choose kingdoms.

Nothing like Salvager will work with Unity, we can't auto-click the buttons for you any more, unless MF goes out of their way to make things like Salvager possible again (which I've requested in the Features Thread over and over but I don't expect to get it).  So like Donald X said, use any randomizer you want, if you like the OP's method then roll a physical d10 or d20 to decide if you tick the Colony box for unrated games. 

But I read the OP to be talking about rated games in particular.  And for that, Salvager never selected the kingdom anyway, nor should it (or any spiritual successor that might be possible in the new version, but probably won't).

[Donald X.]

I believe an option for "choose 2 sets, choose 5 cards from each (with Promos)" was one of Donald's requests for the new version.

I did include that kingdom generation option in my matchmaking system proposal, but did not say anything about promos (so, they probably wouldn't be included). I don't know what they actually used.

I play from two sets irl because of convenience. However you get to see more on-theme interactions within the sets that way, and it gives more of a flavor to the set of 10. It seems like a fine way to play.

For online testing you want to see plenty of new cards to test them. It's easiest to have the rest be random and hey you see whatever multi-set interactions combined with the new cards that way.

[eHalcyon]

I figure the best way to get some better or different kingdom selection stuff going on is to discuss it on the forum, try to find some middle ground with expert players on what kind of deviation from the rulebook you can get a majority of people to say, "yeah, it's more fun that way", and then make an external app and play games with those kingdoms based on what you've all agreed on.

And then get a nice letter from a lawyer working for MF or RGG or Donald X?  There used to be third party dominion apps.  They were asked to shut down when the licensed app went live, and I'm pretty sure they were legally obligated to comply.

pops is talking about using something like Salvager to randomly choose kingdoms.

Nothing like Salvager will work with Unity, we can't auto-click the buttons for you any more, unless MF goes out of their way to make things like Salvager possible again (which I've requested in the Features Thread over and over but I don't expect to get it).  So like Donald X said, use any randomizer you want, if you like the OP's method then roll a physical d10 or d20 to decide if you tick the Colony box for unrated games. 

But I read the OP to be talking about rated games in particular.  And for that, Salvager never selected the kingdom anyway, nor should it (or any spiritual successor that might be possible in the new version, but probably won't).

Pops is talking about having an external app to select kingdoms which can be used by people who've agreed to it, designed with the intent to be "more fun that way" according to the users.  Whether it can be automated by an extension is a separate topic.

Until that post, there was nothing in particular pointing to pro play specifically.  Donald himself chimed in about kingdom design and selection just before pops made his post about it:

And what I want is for you to be able to pick when to use them (like a button to click on to get them), but for the default to be the rulebook rule (for those things, not for the Alchemy 3-cards thing which I do not advocate).

[Donald X.]

Pops is talking about having an external app to select kingdoms which can be used by people who've agreed to it, designed with the intent to be "more fun that way" according to the users.  Whether it can be automated by an extension is a separate topic.

For sure we do not want "I picked all 10 cards" to work for pro games, because you could be getting an unfair advantage by using the same set of 10 over and over, or specifically building a trap like King's Court / Goons / Masquerade. So whatever awesome ways of picking cards there are, for pro games they want to be built into the system. For casual, knock yourself out, enter ten cards and it can just warn your opponent that you did (and let them opt out).

You can get an advantage from "I am better with Colonies so I always play with them" but that doesn't seem so bad, other than, maybe you would have more fun not always playing with Colonies but feel compelled. Maybe you would have more fun always playing with them; I can't rule that out.

[eHalcyon]

Pops is talking about having an external app to select kingdoms which can be used by people who've agreed to it, designed with the intent to be "more fun that way" according to the users.  Whether it can be automated by an extension is a separate topic.

For sure we do not want "I picked all 10 cards" to work for pro games, because you could be getting an unfair advantage by using the same set of 10 over and over, or specifically building a trap like King's Court / Goons / Masquerade. So whatever awesome ways of picking cards there are, for pro games they want to be built into the system. For casual, knock yourself out, enter ten cards and it can just warn your opponent that you did (and let them opt out).

You can get an advantage from "I am better with Colonies so I always play with them" but that doesn't seem so bad, other than, maybe you would have more fun not always playing with Colonies but feel compelled. Maybe you would have more fun always playing with them; I can't rule that out.

So do you mean that you want the button for Colonies/Shelters even in pro games?  Your comment about that options suggested to me that it was more about casual options, which is also the territory of pops' comment.

[Donald X.]

So do you mean that you want the button for Colonies/Shelters even in pro games?  Your comment about that options suggested to me that it was more about casual options, which is also the territory of pops' comment.

I see no reason not to allow "pick 5 each from two random sets" for pro games too; the whole essence of pro games is "we care about rating okay" and there's no conflict there.

For picking Colonies/Shelters, there's a conflict but to me it seems mild. You could similarly just buy Prosperity to increase the chance of Colony.

[blueblimp]

This brings to mind the old controversy about biasing Prosperity on isotropic in ranked games.

[theblankman]

Until that post, there was nothing in particular pointing to pro play specifically.

The OP could only have been talking about pro games...

Right now, as it is, we see Colonies pretty rarely. One thing that irks me is that we see Colonies less than Shelters. With Adventures coming out, Colony games will be pretty rare.

The above is only a thing in formats where you must randomly generate the kingdom, i.e. pro.  In any other format, if you want to see Colony or Shelters more often, you just tick the box more often. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Yes, my opening post was specifically about pro games. Obviously in unranked in casual, you can choose Colonies to your heart's content.

[eHalcyon]

Hmm, OK, my bad then!

[popsofctown]

I don't really like ratings being blended across various kingdom selection methods.  If I had gone onto my old councilroom page and found absolute homogeneity on my "win % given available"s, I would probably figure it doesn't make a difference, but given that there are some differences, I think it does.  And I think it might even be extra true for people long me in the middle who have mastered some strategies but not other.  With the Obi Wan Bonogi thing it's like, well I'm sure he know how to play a BM mirror just fine, he probably just doesn't want to, his rating would be very near that, so whatever.  I don't really want a play experience where people who are rated similar to me actually have a subset of skills of the game that are their favorite, and have that box checked.

I'd like to see separate ratings for different kingdom selection methods.  Maybe they would all come out super similar, and I'm just so terribly wrong and overly particular, but you can tell me that as many times as you want then.  That's just how I feel.

It seems like a good minimum or compromise would be for a 1/N chance for each of N participant's preferred kingdom selection method to be used, so that Prosperity lovers or Prosperity haters, whichever are the minority, don't get as much of a reduced rating for playing their favorite when they can and just sucking it up when they have to play someone else's preferred setting to get a game going.

[Watno]

I definitely think that there shouldn't be dozens of different ratings, but rather one standard for rated games.

[Arctic Penguin]

I like the option to "Pick 5 from 2 sets" whether it has a separate rating or not. If Dominion Online does implement this, it seems better if the cards are chosen to maintain roughly the same odds of seeing a specific card across all sets. Instead of "Pick 2 sets, then pick 5 cards from each set" it could be something like "Pick 2 cards, then pick 4 other cards from the sets of the original 2". Otherwise, you'll be seeing any given Cornucopia, Guilds, or Alchemy card twice as often as a card from a standard sized set, and almost 3 times as often as a Dark Ages card. If you don't weight the set selection by card count, then a Cornucopia card like Tournament will appear in ~7.7% of all games, while a Dark Ages card will appear in ~2.8%.

[Donald X.]

I like the option to "Pick 5 from 2 sets" whether it has a separate rating or not. If Dominion Online does implement this, it seems better if the cards are chosen to maintain roughly the same odds of seeing a specific card across all sets. Instead of "Pick 2 sets, then pick 5 cards from each set" it could be something like "Pick 2 cards, then pick 4 other cards from the sets of the original 2". Otherwise, you'll be seeing any given Cornucopia, Guilds, or Alchemy card twice as often as a card from a standard sized set, and almost 3 times as often as a Dark Ages card. If you don't weight the set selection by card count, then a Cornucopia card like Tournament will appear in ~7.7% of all games, while a Dark Ages card will appear in ~2.8%.

In my proposal it was proportional to the number of cards in the set.

[Watno]

Regarding non fully random kingdoms, I'd like to try a random bias system, where one expansion is randomly selected and cards from that expansion have an increased probability of showing up. This would lead to expansion-internal synergies/themes coming up more, while still allowing for combos that include more than two sets.