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Author Topic: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)  (Read 26082 times)

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faust

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2650 on: July 24, 2015, 06:29:41 pm »

Wait, faust, you told me there was a town aligned person that could kill during the day!

Lekkit could.
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Hydrad

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2651 on: July 25, 2015, 12:52:02 am »

so confusing.

also i really enjoyed my PR faust it was fun rolling the dice everynight.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2652 on: July 25, 2015, 06:21:20 am »

also this is so confusing reading everyones QTs. oh man.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2653 on: July 25, 2015, 10:23:18 am »

Great setup. I'm still butthurt about getting derphammered though.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2654 on: July 25, 2015, 03:54:39 pm »

This game was awesome! Especially the Tempting Offer mechanic. Thanks for letting me sub in, faust.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2655 on: July 25, 2015, 03:57:21 pm »

Was there a PM QT and what are your thoughts on the game?
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2656 on: July 25, 2015, 03:59:58 pm »

Yeah, this was a really really cool setup.

I'm glad I subbed in for WW.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2657 on: July 25, 2015, 04:13:00 pm »

Was there a PM QT and what are your thoughts on the game?
I posted quite a bit in the Wolfram&Hart QT. I was under the assumption that there was only one Vampire left (ashersky) and had a plan to win the following day (even if both e and ash were scum). But then ashersky vigged me. Boo. Awaclus played a pretty good game by distracting Town so much. It's also too bad Ichi got killed early. He had a pretty sweet power.

Thanks for confirming ADK/me as Town btw. :) I figured that there must have been some scum manipulation that night, but it turns out it was just clever design by faust.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2658 on: July 25, 2015, 07:12:00 pm »

By the way, I invited DeDe/ash/e for the N4 karaoke bar because I honestly thought that it was the most pro-town option under the assumptions that a survivor with my powers would have made (e.g. ADK/Arch was confirmed town, etc).
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faust

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2659 on: July 26, 2015, 06:45:30 am »

Okay, so I have time to give a couple of thoughts.

- first, since it has already been asked, there should be an MVP. I struggled a bit with this. Out of the winning team, EgorK died too early to do anything significant, and e.. well, e has been flying under the radar for quite a while. That's worth something, but it doesn't seem quite as MVP-worthy. Because of that, I decided that Awaclus gets the MVP. Even though the evidence was piling up against him, he managed to survive way longer than I thought possible. His move made sure that ADK/Arch went unsuspected for the rest of the game and nearly won.

- Honorable mentions go to: UmgrabeOfSnow for subbing into a nearly unwinnable position and making the best out of it. mail-mi for good use of his power, even though he ended up being tricked once. e, as said before, for not attracting attention and grabbing the win. A Drowned Kernel for making up a believable fakeclaim and taking a risk D1.

- now for some plays that I disagreed with. I was really sad that Ichi never used his power. WHY? It was the most awesomest power in the game! Also I think it would have been better for him to keep a bit more distance to W&H. I also didn't get the night kills on Ichi. They ended up being really bad for all the scum.

- I was baffled at how mail-mi could casually claim a strong investigative power D1 and continue to live to D4.

- the Mason's play was annoying at times. I feel like nearly all of their decisions were not based on evidence, but merely confirmation bias most of the time. Having two confirmed town that don't really try to figure things out sucked.

- If hockey only had used his power to talk to Lekkit, he would have realized that ADK/Arch was not conf!town at all.

- why did mail-mi never send chairs back to N2 to block silver, thus resurrecting Lekkit?

And other comments on the setup and how it played out:

- ash's power in the end might have been a bit too strong. I thought I made it "once per Day/Night phase" at some point. In the end, it would probably not have made a big difference. The double-kill the night before was due to chairs anyway.

- Ghacob dying early sucked and look a lot of subtlety out of the item mechanic. But I guess someone has to die early.

- W&H having 2 alignment-determining roles was overkill.

- having resurrecting abilities in the game is cool, but not having a proper speccy sucks.
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faust

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2660 on: July 26, 2015, 06:46:25 am »

Secret history of Buffy/Angel mafia:

The first idea for this setup was to have a lot of scum. Real multiball. This works well with the flavor, as there are lots of evil guys that Buffy/Angel have to deal with. So I wanted two scum factions and a SK. 3-2-1 seemed like as cool distribution for the faction sizes. That would mean the game had to be sufficiently large to accomodate that. I went through both show's main characters - that was fourteen already. I decided to also include Faith, because she's cool and plays a significant role in both shows. There you have it, 15 players. That should be enough.

Alignment needs to be somewhat apart from flavor, or things don't work out. I could have made Buffy a town member, just because she's Buffy, but then I could have made her an IC as well. So I consulted random.org and got this distribution:

Wolfram&Hart: Winifred Burkle, Angel, Lorne
Vampires: Xander Harris, Tara Maclay
Serial Killer: Buffy Summers

So then began wondering if I could actually use these characters while the whole thing still made sense, or if they had to be mere fakeclaims. Angel could have been evil as Angelus, no problem, but then he really should have fought for the Vampires. So it ended up being a fakeclaim. Fred had a clear scum counterpart - Illyria. Lorne, well, I thought it'd be nice to have him in there as himself, and flavorwise it's not completely out of the question to have him working for W&H, so there you have it.

Vampires are easy usually, because any human can become one. Still, I wanted at least one of the show's "main" fangs, so Xander was replaced by Drusilla.

Buffy as SK couldn't work in any way of course. But as the show itself regularly substitutes Buffy with a robot, I just thought "why not do the same?" The guy controlling the robot would then obviously have to be Warren.

Next came faction design. With three competing scum teams, you have to take extra care that there aren't just a dozen of night kills and the game ends without anyone having the opportunity to actually do anything. The cool thing to do was take away a night kill from one of the factions, and that worked well for W&H. I also wanted the factions to have some factional abilities, because it always sucks to have some crucial power on one of your teammates and then he dies D1. More factional powers = less swingy.

Flavorwise, it was clear that W&H should somehow be able to interact with the other scum. It took a while to figure out how, but in the end giving them the ability to make killing proposals was nice. I also needed to save them from being accidentally night killed, since without a kill of their own, they had a hard time already. Making them full bulletproof seemed like too much. An option to be bulletproof if you don't do anything at night gives the players the kind of hard decisions that I like to have in games. With that it was only natural to give them the additional buff of winning when they have the majority, as that would usually win them the game anyway if they decide to go into lockdown each night, and prevented stalemate situations between the scum factions.

For the vampires, my early notes say they should be "super-powered". A 2 person scum team in a 15 player game is definitely going to have a hard time. Having the ability to redirect between your own faction (and see what targets you) just seemed like a cool thing to do, it had no flavor inspiration. In the end, I liked that, and it worked well with their individual manipulative powers.

The items actually came into the picture pretty late, while designing roles for Dawn and sorting out stuff with Illyria. Both those roles wanted item stuff. So I thought, hey I can make that a full-on subtheme of the game. I googled for important magical objects in the Buffyverse and took those I thought would add something to the game.

To the characters!

Willow Rosenberg

The first role I really thought about, and these thoughts changed the setup a little. Since at the time I already settled on flavor from Buffy's sixth season, I wanted an option to include "Dark Willow". Now there was already a lot of scum and, well, she didn't roll scum so making her full anti-town was not an option. The win condition she ended up having is of course heavily inspired by the show and how her transformation happens there. It was clear that it should be Tara and Xander she has to protect, but both of these rolled vampire, so that would make her an unknowing ally of the vamire faction, which wasn't what I was going for. So I changed Xander back to being town, and took Gunn (who I had a hard time creating a unique role for anyway) as scum. I debated letting Willow know who Tara and Xander were, but in the end decided it would be more fun this way.

Now that the win condition was finished, she needed powers. Flavor Cop and Doctor both were obvious abilities which would help her reach her win con. And because in the show she gets stronger the darker she gets, I wanted something similar to happen here. This is why she gets additional powers. Giving her the option to revive people was nice. She only gets that ability when Tara dies because reviving Xander is such an obvious use of power, while reviving dead scum is very dangerous.

Illyria

It was clear very early that Illyria was way too powerful to simply be one of W&H's minions. I wanted something special for her, and also thought that it would be cool to create some tension within the W&H. It wasn't easy to formulate a win condition that wouldn't make it best play for Illyria to just "out" her teammates and still gave her enough room to not be tied to W&H.

A Survivor that only wins with non-town seemed good enough, but I also wanted W&H to have a way to force her into cooperation - which would in turn weaken her abilities - and from that arose the game of cat-and-mouse that is the Mutari control.

Illyria was also the reason to introduce time travel since it fitted her flavor perfectly. The non-town neighborizing was a late addition, trying to help Illyria to with with other players. If I were to run the game again, this is probably the one thing I would change. 2 alignment-checking roles within W&H are just too much if Illyria decides to straight up root for them. A standard neighborizer would have been sufficient here.

Lindsey McDonald

Lindsey was a natural choice for a W&H baddie. I struggled to find something flavorful for him to do, so I just thought, "what would be cool mechanically?" With the focus on Day actions I already had, I thought some kind of Day-JOAT would be fun. He gets the Dayvig because I always wanted a scum dayvig and it makes up for having no factional kill. The rest is just other stuff you can do during the Day. Doublevote is quite strong, but I thought it was sufficiently weakened by the Day action window (you couldn't just hammer someone at L-1). Treestumping is cool as it offers both protection and roleblocking. All the item stuff is there so that he can prevent Illyria from taking the Mutari control.

Lorne

I debated whether to use Lorne or another W&H player with Lorne as fakeclaim. In the end, I needed a fakeclaim for Illyria within W&H, and well there just aren't that many recognizable guys in the firm. With Lindsey and Lilah gone, I felt any other W&H employee would be meh. So I thought a bit about what Lorne could do. And I dare say his power is one of the most flavorful I have come up with. The 1-shot lynchproof is also flavorful, and I thought W&H needed all the boosts they could get.

Drusilla

Let's face it, Dru is the coolest of all of the vampire baddies in the Buffyverse. With only a 2-player scum team, I needed the Vampires to be strong. They get a Strongman kill because of that. The redirection stuff also was here early, because it worked well with the factional ability. Originally it was 2-shot, but man was that too crazy. Later I needed some other powers, read through flavor for inspiration, and came up with the Seer powers. Bulletproof lets Dru catch a bullet from Tara.

Tara Maclay

What does vamp!Tara do? I decided, the same as real Tara: magic. So she should have a couple of cool things she can do. A JOAT is good in a faction this small. But just standard JOAT seemed too boring, I wanted some spin to it. After thinking about powers for a bit, I thought "make all powers such that nobody is targetted" would be cool. Demon sensor is directly flavor-inspired, the rest are just other things you can do without targetting. It took me a while to figure out a good wording for the Psychotrooper, as there are very different Cops around.

Warren Mears

A SK needed to be even stronger than the vampires. Making him full Ninja gives him some safety to actually use his powers. The abduction was the first power I thought of - it is a take on a similar power from Lost Mafia that never came into play. Role Cop supports that power. The other powers are typical scum powers, helping to both spread confusion and stay alive. Making the kill poison was a last minute decision. I was worried that the pace of the game would be too fast otherwise.

Cordelia Chase

I wanted to see an Oracle in action, and Cordelia needed a role, so that worked out. Flavorwise, Cordy would sit at the headquarters and look stuff up. Some time later in development it became clear that not every player should know what each item does, and then it was cool to have a player who would always know what they do. Giving this power to the Masons was too easy, so Cordy got it. She also gets another way of communication as that works well with the investigative stuff. Vision Girl came relatively late, when I realized town didn't have a protective role yet. It's flavor-based and gives a decision between investigation and protection.

Xander Harris

This is the crazy role. I had a lot of fun designing it. Xander just grabs into the box, pulls something out and hopes it does something for him. Some of the powers want to target town, some want to target scum, some don't want to be used at all. There's a lot of strategic depth in how to best use the role, which is cool - for example, you could shoot all but one of your powers N1 and then have a guaranteed investigation the night after. Or you only use one power per night, and then when you get a result from it, you know on whom it is.

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce

This is another case of mechanics over flavor. Wesley had the JOAT before the Masonry. As you might notice, it has an "unusual targetting" theme. You can target dead players, multiple players, and even Night phases! When I decided to turn him into a Mason, I debated weakening these powers, but I didn't. Having the 1-shot powers makes the question when to best claim the masonry a tad more difficult.

Rupert Giles

This one is a bit embarrassing. Obviously the role is called Watcher, and I intended it to do just what a Watcher usually does. Then I messed up the wording, and when I realized, it was already D1 and DeDe had used the Watching. So I decided to stick with the Tracking instead. Demonologist is a cool power in a game where you don't get full role flips, as it helps figure stuff out, and figuring stuff out is such a fun thing in RMM. He was the first one I turned into a Mason (originally, I considered making him a Masonizer even. How crazy is that?) Then Wesley was the obvious Mason partner.

Faith Lehane

It's a good thing that Buffy turned out to be evil, since finding stuff to do for two Slayers would have been pretty difficult. Faith, as the Slayer, had to be strong. So she's a sort of allrounder: Kill, protect, block. Full vigilante would have added too much death per night, and having the "remorse self-roleblock" thing made the choice to kill less automatic. The Commuter is mostly flavor; it's a nod to the fact that she's the only character (aside from the bad guys) that is not in the main cast of either show, ever.

Anyanka

It was fun to turn Anya back into a demon. It also allowed me to include her unique power, which wouldn't have made sense for her as a human. When I took on fleshing out her role, I had already introduced time-travel and items, both elements helped to phrase this the best way possible.
The idea of course stems from her first appearance on the show, fulfilling Cordy's wish that Buffy never came to Sunnydale. So translating that turned it into "travel in time to block someone's power". But I wanted people to also be able to wish for other things. I always liked the Motivator role, and it seemed a good fit.
Now this role can turn extremely strong as blocking a night kill can revive a dead player AND confirm someone as scum in one swift stroke. To balance that out a bit, her powers are tied to an item. When it is destroyed, any player she might have resurrected drops dead again.

Spike

Spike's power to detect demons was pretty obvious from the flavor. This is also the reason why I included the demon/human categorization, though it ended up doing a couple of other things too. He also gets to make the risky Desperado move. I think it's nice how he can only do it if he didn't try to hurt a human the night before.

Dawn Summers

My early notes say she should be a Thief/Hider. Of course at that time there were no items yet. When I decided to go for them, it was obvious what the Thief should do. She can also secretly give items to players. I didn't want items to just leave the game when players die, so she snatches them as well. Overall, lots of item interaction. I would have loved to see this in play, but well, somebody has to die early.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2661 on: July 26, 2015, 10:09:51 am »

- now for some plays that I disagreed with. I was really sad that Ichi never used his power. WHY? It was the most awesomest power in the game! Also I think it would have been better for him to keep a bit more distance to W&H. I also didn't get the night kills on Ichi. They ended up being really bad for all the scum.
Well...it was pretty clearly not up to me whether or not I could use that power. Maybe I should have tried to steal the control earlier, but when I did, it ended up getting me killed because I could have used lockdown that night instead.

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2662 on: July 26, 2015, 10:27:57 am »

- Ghacob dying early sucked and look a lot of subtlety out of the item mechanic. But I guess someone has to die early.

Yeah.
It was still fun/frustrating at times to watch though
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chairs

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2663 on: July 26, 2015, 11:02:00 am »

I was similarly frustrated at the lack of roleblocking with me, but I also misread Ash unfortunately which was bad.

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2664 on: July 27, 2015, 05:24:40 am »

Yep. This was a bit over my newbhead I must say. Not happy with my performance at all since I couldn't trust my own reading or plans at all- I just had to nod along and hope for the best almost all the time.. (Not did the argument with Ash help with that feeling either..)

Wellwell, It was a great lesson and a really cool experience all in all. Thanks for having me in, Faust!   
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2665 on: July 27, 2015, 05:27:37 am »

I also misread Ash unfortunately which was bad.

Yes, it was.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2666 on: July 27, 2015, 09:06:36 am »

I killed Ichi because I thought he was scum, and I really didn't have a read on anyone else.  I guess I could have gone for one of the Masons, but there were a few things.. I assumed scum would have gone for them,  people would eventually argue for lynching, and I was planning to get towncred from DD once I claimed; him alive means he can verify that power.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2667 on: July 27, 2015, 10:05:03 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2668 on: July 27, 2015, 10:22:07 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I won't argue. Wasn't with purpose of course, but to not kill us off was the right move, obviously.

I very much didn't like being mason, especially not a claimed one. I felt caught in an IC-situation that wasn't even there.. I didn't know what to do or think or anything.. beh, won't blame it on DeDe or anyone else, but I didn't like how we end up playing either.

(except using the shield-power early.. waste or not it helped me figure out egorK. but that was the only right read I had during the game, I suppose..)

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2669 on: July 27, 2015, 10:58:18 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I seriously didn't understand the blind follow of Awaclus' ridiculous and continuously growing scummier claim.  It's like the less realistic the claim got, the more it was accepted as true.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2670 on: July 27, 2015, 11:08:46 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I seriously didn't understand the blind follow of Awaclus' ridiculous and continuously growing scummier claim.  It's like the less realistic the claim got, the more it was accepted as true.

Well, it's worth noting that the claim did actually keep getting closer and closer to the actual truth too, so the narrative for it was pretty strong eventually.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2671 on: July 27, 2015, 11:18:46 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I seriously didn't understand the blind follow of Awaclus' ridiculous and continuously growing scummier claim.  It's like the less realistic the claim got, the more it was accepted as true.

Well, it's worth noting that the claim did actually keep getting closer and closer to the actual truth too, so the narrative for it was pretty strong eventually.

Sure, but every time I came up with a (what I thought pretty valid) counter, your claim suddenly changed to invalidate the counter.  That's, like, fake claim tell 101.
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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2672 on: July 27, 2015, 11:44:26 am »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I seriously didn't understand the blind follow of Awaclus' ridiculous and continuously growing scummier claim.  It's like the less realistic the claim got, the more it was accepted as true.

Well, it's worth noting that the claim did actually keep getting closer and closer to the actual truth too, so the narrative for it was pretty strong eventually.

Sure, but every time I came up with a (what I thought pretty valid) counter, your claim suddenly changed to invalidate the counter.  That's, like, fake claim tell 101.

It didn't change, it just got more specific. And only the not targeting part was a lie.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2673 on: July 27, 2015, 11:52:32 am »

I mean, I'm biased because WW and I knew you were full of it, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bought your claim even as a disinterested third party.

The bigger issue was how you had DeDe wrapped around your little finger though.  Good job.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)
« Reply #2674 on: July 27, 2015, 12:20:46 pm »

The masons just played very horribly imho - no offence guys, but I felt very anti-town play

I seriously didn't understand the blind follow of Awaclus' ridiculous and continuously growing scummier claim.  It's like the less realistic the claim got, the more it was accepted as true.

Well, it's worth noting that the claim did actually keep getting closer and closer to the actual truth too, so the narrative for it was pretty strong eventually.

Sure, but every time I came up with a (what I thought pretty valid) counter, your claim suddenly changed to invalidate the counter.  That's, like, fake claim tell 101.

It didn't change, it just got more specific. And only the not targeting part was a lie.

Yes, that's what fake claims do.
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