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Author Topic: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (Game over - Vampires win!)  (Read 27553 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2015, 09:29:33 am »

I don't really buy the 'Dede's posts are forced' thing. Does scum really open by making a thorough reread and posting detailed opinions about everyone, ensuring a lot of meaningful discussion to come in the crucial time window where we have to decide whom to shoot?

Eh, maybe they do. I mean, it's basically how I tried to played fish mafia. But I still think giving scum points for it without meta arguments is a big stretch. In fact it makes me want to vigv0te: IG (I like that everyone just started using my made up format)

I don't follow why everyone thinks it's so townie.  It sounds like people are just applying "lots of text => content => townie".  Almost everything saying sounds to me like neutral and nonstatements.  "This happened, then this happend, which could be this.  But on the other hand that.  Let's say {town, scum, null} for now".   Yes, he has null reads, but why do you need to say all that much stuff to say there are null reads?  Most feel completely arbitrary:

Quote
Lekkit:
Quote from: Lekkit on June 09, 2015, 04:11:49 pm
My role is somewhat connected to my flavor.

Another mini-claim which is suspicious, and he was against the vig shot because we don't have a long time period... but I think the information still outweighs the risk. I'm thinking slightly scum here.

I don't understand how DeDe is is drawing anything from this; it seems entirely alignment agnostic.  It sounds like "hm, I need a scum read, let's toss it in this slot".

Quote
2.71828: I don't have much of a read yet here. From the few posts he has, he seems to lean town. He is against claiming in fear of it hurting us and gave a very similar read to mine on ADK. I think he's right that ADK wouldn't say that if he was town. Then again, he could be scum just trying to defend players and seem towny. That's a stretch though. For now I feel town.

Why does defending players lead to towniness?  I think you could just as easily conclude "scum" here.

Quote
Hydrad:
Quote from: Hydrad on June 10, 2015, 12:47:55 am
Hmm dayvigging could be interesting. I guess I'm ok with it as long as its not me thats shot!
This is odd, but it doesn't strike me as something scum would say.

Quote from: Hydrad on June 10, 2015, 01:07:43 am
right but usually day 1 scum can manipulate town much easier then other days i feel. So i think if we use it day 1 there is a higher chance our extra lynch hits town.

He he seems against the vig shot.

Quote from: Hydrad on June 10, 2015, 07:17:54 am
so I'm in favor of it now.

Then he seems to flip again.

That being said, I feel like he is just trying to hypothesis test the idea of the vig shot in a vacuum, which is why he switches and is also, in my experience, a very townie thing to do. He's not afraid to voice unpopular opinions just to test the waters. I also think that it's true that the information from the vig kill would better allow us to have a more meaningful D1 lynch, so overall I get a strong town vibe here.

I mainly don't understand the "This is odd, but it doesn't strike me as something scum would say."  It sounds like something anyone would say, town or scum.  I also don't see "He's not afraid to voice unpopular opinions just to test the waters."  Also "I also think that it's true that the information from the vig kill would better allow us to have a more meaningful D1 lynch," is obvious and a statement that has nothing to do with this game or the player's alignments---it's a setup/theory discussion---so why does it make him townie?

Okay I don't want to keep going and make this huge.. Chairs has two big paragraphs that seems to not say anything... he thinks EgorK soft claiming a PR is suspcious, because...?  This is RMM, the chance EgorK has a role as town or scum is pretty high.  He says ADK is town, which I agree, but that's kind of an empty statement.  Plus it's a "town but hey we should be suspicious and make sure we all act very towny in regards to his ability" kind of statement.  I don't really buy his argument for wanting to lynch Mail-Mi.  What's the scum narrative for wanting to save the shot, exactly?  Because he's really afraid he'll be the one to get shot and plans to kill him tonight, when he's probably sure there are some kinds of protective roles?  Doesn't seem to fit. 

However:

Quote
hockeysemlan: I'm still getting my strongest scum vibe here. He is barely active (although he has an excuse) but when he does appear, his post simply hops on a wagon against mail-mi and votes for him, but then quickly pulls it off and claims it's to RVS for the votes or information to be meaningful. I feel like this is one of the more scummy things to do, trying to play all sides, while still being in the background. I haven't played with him at all, so I could be wrong and this could just be him, but I'm worried. For now, I want to here more of his thoughts, so Vote: Hockey

This I actually think sounds more townie. 

His responses since his post haven't seemed scummy, either.

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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2015, 09:30:13 am »

Also, fairly certain mail-mi is scum.  He hasn't played in awhile and he has the itchy trigger finger of a guilty henchman.  I currently imagine him wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

This sounds like town.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2015, 09:36:08 am »

Also also ash seems to be encouraging me to shoot whoever the hell I want, which... seems a little sketchy to me.

I think it's sketchy to go for anyone, but I think he more just wants a vig shot today because there was discussion about not having one at all. If the option is someone at all vs no one, I would feel this way because of the info we get. Not to say it should be anyone. We should definitely discuss further, but I don't feel he's all that sketchy.

Also, how do people feel about the mini-claims I pointed out before.
I find those hella sketchy. I honestly see no incentive for town to say something like that.

Well I kind of addressed this, but:

I don't think EgorK's was sketchy.  Well, maybe sketchy in that it's all he's said so far.

Chairs: I trust that if Chairs thought it was beneficial for him to claim, he would.  Actually I would be interesting in hearing what Chairs has to say about it. 
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Lekkit

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #178 on: June 11, 2015, 09:39:49 am »

Ichimaru Gin going all-out hedgehog when Delirious Deleuze accused him of singling him out for lurking seems like defensive scum to me. I doubt it's a heavy case of tunnel vision. I've been there as the paranoid scum, and I think that's what this is.

Vigv0te: Ichimaru Gin

Regardless of how forced DD's reads are. They are still something to look at. Opinions are what we have to go on. I think that regardless of how strong the reads are. It's what makes me want to lynch him the least out of the guys we've heard from.

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mail-mi

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2015, 10:25:12 am »

Also, fairly certain mail-mi is scum.  He hasn't played in awhile and he has the itchy trigger finger of a guilty henchman.  I currently imagine him wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'fairly certain' is a pretty bold claim for day 1. is it like 50% or like 90%? Also, why exactly do you think it? just because he doesn't want the vig to shoot?

Like, 45%. 

It has nothing to do with the cig, actually.  It's his jumpiness, like he's worried he'll make a mistake.  He also redirects a lot...like, very often.  His posts move the topic of conversation purposefully.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't feel like the mail-mi of old.

Maybe because I've grown up a bit and am less sheepy and am starting to get an opinion of my own. And also it's my first game back so I'm a little unsure and hedgey.

I'll be gone for the rest of the day mostly, so I'm going to claim now so y'all don't vig me. I am Cordelia chase, and I'm a messenger/oracle/something else that I think is unwise to claim this early.
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I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

ashersky

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2015, 11:02:17 am »

FYI, Cordelia is a good choice for the "clearly good character who is actually bad" role in this flavor setting.
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EgorK

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2015, 11:33:23 am »

Any chance for vig vote count? I'd do it myself, but a little bit busy now. Anyway, Vigv0te: mail-mi for now

IG stands out as scummy as well
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2015, 11:38:52 am »

FYI, Cordelia is a good choice for the "clearly good character who is actually bad" role in this flavor setting.

Well it's not, because I am indeed town.

IG seems to be getting a little bit of tunnel vision on DD, and he seems a bit scummy, so I'm going to vigv0te: IG
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I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2015, 11:55:23 am »

generic ad hom attack of it feeling "forced."
Why is everyone ignoring this? This is probably the #1 thing that makes me think DeDe is scum right now. It's such a clear attempt to misinterpret what I was actually saying.

That, and now load of people are defending him and attacking me for having a scumread on him. Yeah, I'm sticking to my guns--I don't care how unpopular it is. I'm trusting my gut on this one. I've gotten burned too many times going along with others.

Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2015, 12:05:25 pm »

This backlash is intriguing to me. Do we just fundamentally disagree about what is scummy/townie behavior?

Ichimaru Gin going all-out hedgehog
What does this mean?
Are you referrring to my qualifying post that not all of DeDe's reads list was unhelpful?
Yet you're simultaneously accusing me of having "tunnel-vision" or unable to see other ways of interpreting DeDe's actions--sounds pretty contradictory to me.

Lekkit

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2015, 12:10:36 pm »

What I'm saying is that he pointed out something in your behaviour that you didn't like. And you've been defending against it, pointing fingers back at him ever since.

Now that you mention it, what was it that you did agree on that you would come back to later?
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Lekkit

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2015, 12:12:57 pm »

Also, I'm going to Germany tomorrow and have some stuff to do tonight. I probably won't be able to be active again until sunday evening or more realistically monday.
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Ghacob

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #187 on: June 11, 2015, 12:13:39 pm »

I swear I've tried starting a post for over a page of content now
unv0te
I don't see scum mail mi being this confident
their actions reminded me of town!me, but I'm new. That being said, as they said, this is their first game back so back down to basically null I guess


ashersky, you're really pushing hard on this
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #188 on: June 11, 2015, 12:15:18 pm »

What I'm saying is that he pointed out something in your behaviour that you didn't like. And you've been defending against it, pointing fingers back at him ever since.

Now that you mention it, what was it that you did agree on that you would come back to later?

Specifically, I thought this was pretty good.
chairs: I'm very skeptical of his claim, here. I know that he doesn't want to give away his powers completely in fear of scum, but I don't see why he would incorporate a portion of a claim in with asking for flavor names, then. Scum, then, still knows he has a PR and just doesn't know what PR. It makes him still a prime candidate for a lynch. It's, overall, very suspicious. I don't feel scum would claim unless it directly benefited them to do so, and a PR that works off people's flavor names seems like something scum would have to claim from which to be able to benefit. Even if he was town, I still think claiming, depending on his power, wouldn't give us enough benefit right away. Scum would get information from the flavor names and be able to kill him at night. Unless his power provides a direct benefit today, I don't see why it would help us to mass claim, especially because scum can lie about their flavor names.
It seems like he's really considering all the options here in a pretty townie fashion. It's good to be cautious with stuff like this--speaking as someone who is normally overeager to claim. Interestingly, WW skipped this part when he was addressing DeDe's post. I thought this was the most solid part of the reads list. Chairs still hasn't posted once since then I don't think--maybe he's just waiting it out?

PPE: 1

Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #189 on: June 11, 2015, 12:18:24 pm »

I don't buy that analysis.. I don't think scum!Chairs is any more likely to say what he did than town!Chairs is.  I actually, I think it's more likely the other way.  Even if a mass flavor claim is a bad idea, I don't think that makes Chairs scummy for asking what people think about it. 
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #190 on: June 11, 2015, 12:19:53 pm »

Yep. Chairs only has one post. This.

My role cares about other people's flavor names. How does everyone feel about the benefits/drawbacks to flavor name claiming?
I might actually prefer chairs...
Even with his lurking though, it seems like people never want to lynch him. He barely got any suspicion in M61 as scum.

PPE: WW In a vacuum, I might agree with you. Chairs literally hasn't posted anything since then though. He's not VLA is he?

Ghacob

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #191 on: June 11, 2015, 12:23:22 pm »

chairs has a last active of 2 days ago, when he last posted. Does that count mean that he hasn't been online since then?
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #192 on: June 11, 2015, 12:23:43 pm »

Yeah, it's the big problem with heavy lurkers.  Lynching provides little information and it feels like you're not really doing anything.  Letting them live makes it hard to figure things out late game. 

Prod: Chairs
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #193 on: June 11, 2015, 12:24:27 pm »

chairs has a last active of 2 days ago, when he last posted. Does that count mean that he hasn't been online since then?
I didn't check his profile, but yeah, that's what it means. Hmm. He could just be busy IRL then I guess.

PPE: 1

faust

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #194 on: June 11, 2015, 12:29:33 pm »

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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

silverspawn

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #195 on: June 11, 2015, 12:29:54 pm »

Any chance for vig vote count? I'd do it myself, but a little bit busy now. Anyway, Vigv0te: mail-mi for now

sure

Vote Count 1.2

Awaclus (1): Hydrad
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Ichimaru Gin (3): silverspawn, Lekkit, mail-mi
Delirious Deleuze (1): Witherweaver
mail-mi (3): Delirious Deleuze, hockeysemlan, Egork
hockeysemlan (1): A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (5): Ichimaru Gin, e, chairs, Ghacob, ashersky


and ash is voting for WW if you count the syntax

no guarantees
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #196 on: June 11, 2015, 12:32:05 pm »

I thought my vigv0te was still on DeDe. Or is this a regular votecount?

Interestingly, it seems like vigv0tes have temporarily replaced normal votes since we're treating the dayvig like a second lynch almost. And...I keep forgetting how many people are in this game!

faust

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #197 on: June 11, 2015, 12:33:46 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

silverspawn (1): Witherweaver
Delirious Deleuze (2): Ichimaru Gin, 2.71828.....
Ichimaru Gin (1): Awaclus
ashersky (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (9): chairs, EgorK, silverspawn, Ghacob, A Drowned Kernel, Lekkit, Delirious Deleuze, hockeysemlan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. D1 ends on June 16, noon forum time.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 12:34:57 pm by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

silverspawn

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #198 on: June 11, 2015, 12:33:52 pm »

I thought my vigv0te was still on DeDe. Or is this a regular votecount?

Interestingly, it seems like vigv0tes have temporarily replaced normal votes since we're treating the dayvig like a second lynch almost. And...I keep forgetting how many people are in this game!

nono it's a vig count. your post just wasn't counted because you misspelled his name.

that's why I said no guarantees :P
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silverspawn

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Re: RMM25: Buffy/Angel Mafia (D1)
« Reply #199 on: June 11, 2015, 12:34:41 pm »

It was supposed to be "vig vote count," not "vote count 1.2"
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