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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 218433 times)

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chipperMDW

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #425 on: April 15, 2015, 12:08:00 pm »
0

I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.
Agreed.

You are only playing one card.
Exactly. So why would BoM-Woodcutter be checking for tokens twice, which it would need to do to get bonuses from both piles? (Unless it were simultaneously from both piles; but Donald's last post kinda rules that out.)
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #426 on: April 15, 2015, 12:10:41 pm »
0

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight? I would argue that "When a Knight is trashed by this" sounds a lot more like a reference to the act of trashing than "the trashed card", and so looking at what IS trashed instead of at what WAS trashed seems more natural (to me at least). Obviously, if you execute these instructions sequentially without the assumption of memory, this can't work.*

*But we have memory, don't we? At least revealing Moat to Swamp Hag would be a pain without it.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #427 on: April 15, 2015, 12:15:44 pm »
0

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight? I would argue that "When a Knight is trashed by this" sounds a lot more like a reference to the act of trashing than "the trashed card", and so looking at what IS trashed instead of at what WAS trashed seems more natural (to me at least). Obviously, if you execute these instructions sequentially without the assumption of memory, this can't work.*

*But we have memory, don't we? At least revealing Moat to Swamp Hag would be a pain without it.

The Estate is is a Knight, you have to trash the played Knight.
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pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #428 on: April 15, 2015, 12:22:04 pm »
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You are only playing one card.
Exactly. So why would BoM-Woodcutter be checking for tokens twice, which it would need to do to get bonuses from both piles? (Unless it were simultaneously from both piles; but Donald's last post kinda rules that out.)

My understanding is that in the brief moment between you choosing to play BoM and BoM actually being in play, BoM is both itself and the card from the supply you chose. Bom says "Play this [...]", so you are playing BoM, there is no "would" wording involved. Then once it's on your play area, it's only the card you chose, until it leaves your play area.

Donald is known to rule BoM in ways that make intuitive sense if strict rules adherence would just confuse the hell out of everyone, so we'll need to wait for the rulebook to clear this one out. I've heard it's going to come out soon?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #429 on: April 15, 2015, 12:24:23 pm »
+1

Band of Schrodinger's Cats
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AJD

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #430 on: April 15, 2015, 12:25:10 pm »
+2

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #431 on: April 15, 2015, 12:31:40 pm »
+2

I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.

I agree. Donald made his ruling because he thought it was how most players would think it worked. But it does seem to fly in the face of what we know of Band of Misfits.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #432 on: April 15, 2015, 01:00:28 pm »
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Was there a case before where whether we actually played BoM mattered?

Yes, with Conspirator, as has been mentioned before.

My understanding is that in the brief moment between you choosing to play BoM and BoM actually being in play, BoM is both itself and the card from the supply you chose. Bom says "Play this [...]", so you are playing BoM, there is no "would" wording involved. Then once it's on your play area, it's only the card you chose, until it leaves your play area.

BoM's instructions are not like any other Action card's instructions. All other cards' instructions are triggered when the card hits the table and is in play, after any when-play effects from other cards (like Moat's reaction or a previously played Urchin). So it's always like this:

1) Choose to play an Action card.
2) Put it in play.
3) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4) Resolve the card's instructions.

(There is an exception if the card can't be put into play, because it's in the Trash for example. Then step 2 fails, but we still do the other steps.)

If BoM worked like this (which it doesn't), it would be like this:

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) Put it in play as BoM.
3) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4) Resolve the card's instructions:
4A) Choose a card from Supply costing less: Choose Sea Hag.
4B) Put BoM-as-Sea Hag in play. (This fails since the card is already in play.)
4C) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
4D) Resolve BoM-as-Sea Hag's instructions.

We know it doesn't work like this. It would mean two cards are played, BoM-as-BoM and BoM-as-Sea Hag. Conspirator would see two played cards. The only way BoM can work is if it's a before-play (or a when-would-play) ability, just like Trader is a when-would-gain ability.

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) The when-would-play triggers: Choose a card from Supply costing less: Choose Sea Hag.
3) Put BoM-as-Sea Hag in play.
4) Resolve when-play effects from other cards.
5) Resolve Sea Hag's instructions.

So a BoM is never played. It's in step 4 that we check for tokens on piles.

Again, see here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg482494#msg482494
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 01:03:52 pm by Jeebus »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #433 on: April 15, 2015, 04:09:31 pm »
+3

Yeah, Conspirator means my previous interpretation doesn't work.  Here's why I'm having trouble with this.  It seems to me like there are only two reasonable ways to interpret the situation:

1. I "play Band of Misfits as if it were a Woodcutter", and the way I would play Woodcutter is I would get +1 action, +1 buy, +$2 (assuming my action token is there).  If my token is on BoM instead, it doesn't matter, because I'm playing BoM the way I would play Woodcutter.

OR

2. The action token tells me "when I play a card from this pile, +1 action".  If my token is on BoM, then I'm playing a card from that pile, so I get +1 action.  If my token is on Woodcutter, then I'm not playing a card from that pile, so I don't get +1 action.

So either way you interpret it, you only get the +1 action from one of the piles, and not the other.  And it doesn't work to interpret it as playing both BoM and Woodcutter, because that would mean you're playing two actions every time you play BoM, which is not consistent with Conspirator, as everyone else keeps saying.  So I've convinced myself my confusion is justified.

Maybe it's more like, you get to choose which of those rulings it is?  Maybe there's a case for that.  So then the question is, is it possible (because of some convoluted edge case involving Diadem and Storyteller) to not get the +1 Action, if the token is on Woodcutter or Band of Misfits?
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #434 on: April 15, 2015, 05:21:39 pm »
0

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.

Oops... That's a good point. For now, at least.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #435 on: April 15, 2015, 05:43:10 pm »
+2

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.

Oops... That's a good point. For now, at least.

If it could, I'd say yes - the Estate has the Knight type.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #436 on: April 15, 2015, 06:14:57 pm »
+1

2. The action token tells me "when I play a card from this pile, +1 action".  If my token is on BoM, then I'm playing a card from that pile, so I get +1 action.  If my token is on Woodcutter, then I'm not playing a card from that pile, so I don't get +1 action.

As I've showed, you're not playing a BoM. (The exception being when no action cards costing less exist in Supply.)

So the only way a token on the BoM pile could kick in, is if we interpret the BoM-as-Sea Hag as being "from" the BoM pile, even though we're not playing a BoM. We would have to focus on were the card physically is from. In that case it sounds reasonable to say that the card is not "from" the Sea Hag pile. But the previous ruling says that it's "from" both...

shmeur

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #437 on: April 15, 2015, 06:23:54 pm »
0

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.
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AJD

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #438 on: April 15, 2015, 08:02:27 pm »
+1

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.

Honestly I feel like cost increasers are unlikely because of the confusion of how they interact with cost reducers? Because cost reducers all have this "but not less than $0" stipulation on them. So like, if you play Princess, and activate a cost increaser, how much does Poor House cost? $0, because +$1 for the cost increaser and then –$2 for the Princess? Or $1, because $0 from the Princess and then +$1 for the cost increaser? Would it matter in what order you played the two effects? Would it matter whether the effect is while-in-play (like Princess) or when-you-play (like Bridge)?

I mean, certainly Donald could just write a rule to clarify this, but it seems thorny enough that I'm not expecting it.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #439 on: April 15, 2015, 08:21:22 pm »
+1

Highwayman - Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost more.

At the start of your next turn: +

--
Interaction with cost reducers and the 0 threshhold shouldn't be an issue, it should seem natural that the cost increase duration attack happens before any of those enter play, and the FAQ would just be explicit on this.

Of course this basically copies Swamp Hag so any real card would be more interesting, but there you see some viability.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #440 on: April 15, 2015, 08:57:59 pm »
0

When an opponent's Knight trashes my Sir D'Estatery, does he have to trash his Knight?

Can't happen; a Knight can't trash a card costing $2.
It's quite possible that there might be a card/token that gives piles +1 cost.  Then it'd be $3 in such a scenario.

Honestly I feel like cost increasers are unlikely because of the confusion of how they interact with cost reducers? Because cost reducers all have this "but not less than $0" stipulation on them. So like, if you play Princess, and activate a cost increaser, how much does Poor House cost? $0, because +$1 for the cost increaser and then –$2 for the Princess? Or $1, because $0 from the Princess and then +$1 for the cost increaser? Would it matter in what order you played the two effects? Would it matter whether the effect is while-in-play (like Princess) or when-you-play (like Bridge)?

I mean, certainly Donald could just write a rule to clarify this, but it seems thorny enough that I'm not expecting it.
The other game I'm familiar with with this sort of interaction is Twilight Struggle, and there the interaction of Ops increasers with Ops reducers is clear enough: you combine all the Ops-modifying effects first, and then the boundary effects come into play.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #441 on: April 15, 2015, 09:26:11 pm »
0

Highwayman - Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost more.

At the start of your next turn: +

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack and I agree that the interaction with cost reducers is not confusing.
However, because it doesn't specify the buy phase, it is an attack that potentially helps your opponents (e.g. Apprentice).

That said, Haunted Woods is a Duration-Attack that potentially helps your opponent, so maybe that's part of the charm.

EDIT: My original example of it benefiting your opponent was Remodel but, well, that doesn't actually work, does it?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 09:29:37 pm by jaketheyak »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #442 on: April 15, 2015, 09:38:40 pm »
0

Highwayman - Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost more.

At the start of your next turn: +

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack and I agree that the interaction with cost reducers is not confusing.
However, because it doesn't specify the buy phase, it is an attack that potentially helps your opponents (e.g. Apprentice).

That said, Haunted Woods is a Duration-Attack that potentially helps your opponent, so maybe that's part of the charm.

All* Attack cards have the potential to help your opponent, many of them in more situations than cost-increasing.

*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #443 on: April 15, 2015, 09:47:34 pm »
0

All* Attack cards have the potential to help your opponent, many of them in more situations than cost-increasing.

Yeah, I suppose that's true.
I guess I originally thought it might be helpful a bit too often because of my brain misfire over Remodel-variants.

Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #444 on: April 15, 2015, 10:00:48 pm »
0

Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.
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AJD

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #445 on: April 15, 2015, 10:03:22 pm »
+2

Highwayman - Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost more.

At the start of your next turn: +

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack

(Donald thought so too; it turned into Cutpurse.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #446 on: April 15, 2015, 10:06:48 pm »
+1

Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.

It could also just be 2 Libraries (or other draw-to-X) and 3 junk cards.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #447 on: April 15, 2015, 10:09:50 pm »
0

Quote
*With the possible exception of Pillage - there's an edge-case challenge, a 5+ card hand such that discarding any single card is beneficial. 5 Tunnels I suppose.

5 Libraries, too.

Yeah. I wonder if there are any that a decent deck is likely to produce.

It could also just be 2 Libraries (or other draw-to-X) and 3 junk cards.

Yeah okay. So even Pillage can help.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #448 on: April 16, 2015, 09:04:41 am »
0

The lesson here is not to buy pillage to attack your opponent's junked up library engine. You learn something new every day.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #449 on: April 16, 2015, 02:39:58 pm »
0

Highwayman - Action-Attack-Duration

After your turn, and until your next turn, all cards cost more.

At the start of your next turn: +

This seems like a plausible concept for a Duration-Attack

(Donald thought so too; it turned into Cutpurse.)

But he also mentioned that when he made Seaside, there was pressure to keep Durations to a minimum. That pressure has gone, so he may think it over. I admit that since Seaside a new concern against cost increasers has raised its head, though, and that concern is the similarity of such a card to Cutpurse.
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