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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 115139 times)

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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #400 on: April 14, 2015, 06:01:26 am »
0

When you play BoM, first you check whether the BoM pile has a +1 Action token.  If it does, the BoM card essentially becomes a card that reads:

+1 Action
<Text of BoM card>.

So you get any +1 Action before you even begin to read what the BoM card's text says.
Ah, but the text on BoM is completely unlike the text on any other card. It's not really an "on play" instruction; it happens before you would be following the card's "on play" instructions, if it had any. It's comparable to Trader happening before a gain; it's a "would play" effect:
Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card.

I think that's moot, though, because the presence of the +1 Action token doesn't actually modify the text of the cards; it just gives you +1 Action when you play (but before you start carrying out instructions on) a card that meets its criterion. The thing that's weird is that the game can ever catch you "playing" a BoM in the first place.

Yes, i think that's where the confusion comes from. We are used to "when play" triggering before a card's actual effect happens (early examples: Reactions happening before an attack is resolved), and so it seems Lost Arts should happen first. Just that, as you said, Band of Misfits works completely different.

So i never play BoM, i play, let's say, Woodcutter. Now the question is: Is a BoM-Woodcutter from the Woodcutter pile? Not every real Woodcutter is. Some are from the Black Market deck. Or are Black Market Woodcutters from an absent Woodcutter pile? Maybe BoM Woodcutters are Woodcutters from the BoM pile? Whatever they are, they are cards, and they came from that pile, right? On the other hand, BoM "is that card", and that card is a specific Woodcutter. And where does that Woodcutter come from? The Woodcutter pile.

Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

*You don't want Diadem/Storyteller to trigger a shuffle, okay?
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #401 on: April 14, 2015, 11:27:50 am »
+1

Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

To me the only way to interpret BoM is that the instructions happen before play. When-play instructions, like Moat reactions for instance, happen after the card has hit the table, and Lost Arts falls into this category: "When you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Action."

So it seems that the card you play is actually the card you chose (and not "BoM"), when you resolve Lost Arts:

1) Choose to play BoM.
2) Resolve the before-play instructions: Choose Sea Hag, and set up the card to be Sea Hag from the point it's in play to it leaves play.
3) Play the card, turning it instantly into Sea Hag.
4) Resolve any when-play instructions:
- (4A) Lost Arts gives +1 Action if there is a token on the Sea Hag pile.
- (4B) Players can reveal Moats.
5) Resolve the card's instructions, which are Sea Hag's instructions.

The effects in step 4 are simultaneous, but we resolve the current player first, so +1 Action happens first.
Maybe we could consider "BoM turning into Sea Hag" as a when-play instruction instead, but that would mean that the BoM is first played as a BoM (step 3), and Donald's statement contradicts this. ("You cannot play a BoM.")

In order to also get the effects of a +1 Action on the BoM pile, (4A) needs to also check the BoM pile. That would mean that the card (even though it's not a BoM) is "from" the BoM pile while at the same time it's "from" the Sea Hag pile. It seems a little strange to me.

markusin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #402 on: April 14, 2015, 12:49:46 pm »
+2

Let's assume Lost Arts and BoM apply both at the same time, on-play, before the card effect happens. Shouldn't you be able to decide what happens first, meaning that you can effectively have it either way (including the option to not get an action*)? Mysteries above mysteries...

...

In order to also get the effects of a +1 Action on the BoM pile, (4A) needs to also check the BoM pile. That would mean that the card (even though it's not a BoM) is "from" the BoM pile while at the same time it's "from" the Sea Hag pile. It seems a little strange to me.
It's strange, but I think this interpretation is the only one that doesn't contradict any previous rulings.

Also, what is the final verdict of playing Throne Room on BoM when the +1 Action Token is on BoM. Do I get +2 Actions from the token effect? If so, then this also supports the interpretation that BoM is simultaneously from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card chosen to play it as.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #403 on: April 14, 2015, 01:13:09 pm »
0

BoM can be a confusing card. The +1 Action token thing makes perfect sense. I still don't agree with the whole Procession/BoM ruling, but hey, it's in the rule book so what can you do.
Yeah, this is pretty much a "hard-coded" 2-card interaction, right? The worst is when you play BoM as Fortress with Procession. BoM goes back into your hand because it was a Fortress when you trashed the BoM, but you still get a $6 cost action card if possible (assuming no cost-reduction).
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #404 on: April 14, 2015, 01:49:07 pm »
0

Also, what is the final verdict of playing Throne Room on BoM when the +1 Action Token is on BoM. Do I get +2 Actions from the token effect? If so, then this also supports the interpretation that BoM is simultaneously from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card chosen to play it as.

It would seem to be the only interpretation that makes sense. If the card, when it's played, is both from the BoM pile and the chosen card's pile, then with TR you get every token bonus from both piles twice.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #405 on: April 14, 2015, 02:21:25 pm »
0

If I'm reading this right, Inheritance and BoM both assume the abilities of another card, but not the name or cost?

Or does Band of Treasure Maps actually work?
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pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #406 on: April 14, 2015, 02:21:58 pm »
0

+1 Action token: "when you play a card from this pile, you first get +1 action"
Band of Misfits: "Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."

From the wording of both, there is no doubt that TR-BoM-as-smithy gets you +2 actions if the action token is on smithy, because you play BoM as, and it IS, a smithy from the smithy supply pile, at least until it leaves play.

I am not entirely sure what would happen if the +1 action token is on the BoM supply pile. It depends on what "play it twice" from throne room actually does. This is made more confusing by the hard-coded interaction between TR/Proc/KC and BoM as one-shot. If it didn't exist, I would rule that you only get the +1 action once, because by the time you play BoM as smithy the second time, the BoM is not a BoM anymore.

EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 02:23:19 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #407 on: April 14, 2015, 02:30:49 pm »
0

EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
Right.  So BoM-as-Treasure Map works, and does what you want when paired with a real Treasure Map in hand.

Inheritance Estate-Maps never do anything besides trash themselves, because they don't assume the name.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #408 on: April 14, 2015, 02:31:46 pm »
+4

+1 Action token: "when you play a card from this pile, you first get +1 action"
Band of Misfits: "Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."

From the wording of both, there is no doubt that TR-BoM-as-smithy gets you +2 actions if the action token is on smithy, because you play BoM as, and it IS, a smithy from the smithy supply pile, at least until it leaves play.

I am not entirely sure what would happen if the +1 action token is on the BoM supply pile. It depends on what "play it twice" from throne room actually does. This is made more confusing by the hard-coded interaction between TR/Proc/KC and BoM as one-shot. If it didn't exist, I would rule that you only get the +1 action once, because by the time you play BoM as smithy the second time, the BoM is not a BoM anymore.

EDIT: BoM assumes the name and the cost too.
Suppose there was a card, Band of Little Misfits. It's Band of Misfits but only costs $4.

I play Band of Misfits as Band of Little Misfits as Woodcutter. There's a token on Band of Little Misfits. Do I get it? My feeling was that people in actual games would feel like they did.

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that. Then there's some "lock in" concept that makes Throne / BoM / Feast work as per expectations and the rulebook. The second time, it's already Feast. So I would guess you only get +1 Action. To really "know" I would have to study that ruling and the FAQs and well man the rulebook that won't answer this is out Saturday, surely I can put you guys off until then.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #409 on: April 14, 2015, 03:37:41 pm »
0

Does it work to interpret it as two simultaneous effects?  You play BoM, which tells you to play itself as another card.  So you have two effects happening simultaneously; you're playing BoM and you're playing Scout.  You choose the order to resolve them in, so if you're token is on BoM, you choose to play the BoM first, getting +1 Action, and if it's on Scout, you choose to play Scout first, getting +1 Action.  Nothing actually happens when you "play BoM", except that it (maybe) triggers the +1 Action.  Actually I guess it doesn't matter what order you resolve them in in either case, because you're getting +1 Action either way, unless there's some lose track magic happening there.  I'm not sure if that interpretation works with the Throne Room interaction though.

For me the source of the confusion is that two cards (or an event and a card) are telling me to do opposite things.  Band of Misfits is telling me "I'm not really a Band of Misfits!" while the action token is telling me "I only care what pile the card you're playing comes from", and I don't know who to listen to.  I could see a case that could be made for either one getting priority, but that you get to choose just seems weird to me.  But I could see it being comparable to getting to choose the order of simultaneous things.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #410 on: April 14, 2015, 05:15:59 pm »
+1

Suppose there was a card, Band of Little Misfits. It's Band of Misfits but only costs $4.

I play Band of Misfits as Band of Little Misfits as Woodcutter. There's a token on Band of Little Misfits. Do I get it? My feeling was that people in actual games would feel like they did.

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that. Then there's some "lock in" concept that makes Throne / BoM / Feast work as per expectations and the rulebook. The second time, it's already Feast. So I would guess you only get +1 Action. To really "know" I would have to study that ruling and the FAQs and well man the rulebook that won't answer this is out Saturday, surely I can put you guys off until then.

Yessir. But here's something to consider.

I don't think it matters whether TR "locked in" the card or not. If you get +1 Action from the BoM pile, you should get it twice with TR.

I assume that the token's effect happens on "when play" (because that's what Lost Arts says). As I showed a couple of posts ago the token's effect happens after the BoM has already turned into e.g. Sea Hag. So if you still get +1 Action from the BoM pile when you play it as a Sea Hag the first time, nothing has changed the second time.

(But to me it would make more sense that you didn't get it from the BoM pile at all when you play it as another card, for the same reason I just stated.)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:18:30 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #411 on: April 14, 2015, 05:32:40 pm »
0

But Band of Misfits *is* the card it's emulating until it leaves play. If you Throne Room a BoM that has been Lost Arts'd, you only get +1 Action. You played a BoM, but once it's in play, it's no longer a BoM. Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #412 on: April 14, 2015, 05:40:55 pm »
+2

Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.

Except when there are no Action cards costing less than it in the Supply.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #413 on: April 14, 2015, 06:55:18 pm »
+2

But Band of Misfits *is* the card it's emulating until it leaves play. If you Throne Room a BoM that has been Lost Arts'd, you only get +1 Action. You played a BoM, but once it's in play, it's no longer a BoM. Similarly, I would assume that "Band of Misfits" can never contribute to Horn of Plenty's different names in play.

My point is that it isn't a BoM the first time either. See my previous post.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #414 on: April 14, 2015, 11:47:12 pm »
0

So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #415 on: April 14, 2015, 11:57:01 pm »
+1

So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?

They're Action–Victory while in your hand or deck, but in play they become a copy of whatever you're having them imitate, same as regular Band of Misfits.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #416 on: April 15, 2015, 12:17:46 am »
+3

So, what happens when Inheritance is played on BoM? (Obviously cost reduction)

Do Estates no longer become Estate-ChosenAction?

They're Action–Victory while in your hand or deck, but in play they become a copy of whatever you're having them imitate, same as regular Band of Misfits.

And when you Procession them you get a $3 card, I suppose...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #417 on: April 15, 2015, 06:46:35 am »
+5

And they would only be able to imitate Poor House or Ruins.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #418 on: April 15, 2015, 09:16:40 am »
+2

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that.
Ok, so, you're saying that, in some sense, you do play BoM when you play it as something else. Just a little bit. Not enough for Conspirator to notice that you played two actions, but enough for the +1 Action token to notice playing two different things.

That's the confusion: different things both say they're looking for something being "played," but they now have different interpretations of what "play" means. Or some are more observant than others.

So... can all "when you play" effects see you sorta-playing BoM? Like, if you had in play a card that read "While this is in play, when you play an Action card, gain a Silver," and you played BoM-as-Woodcutter, would you gain two Slivers? (If Conspirator were watching, wouldn't it think that was a magic trick?)

Or is this just another special-case ruling for BoM with the "when you play" on the +1 Action token (and its friends, presumably)?

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pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #419 on: April 15, 2015, 09:51:00 am »
0

You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM instructing you to play another card, and is also different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead". So conspirator doesn't activate after one BoM. Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #420 on: April 15, 2015, 11:00:35 am »
0

You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead".
Okay, now you lost me. These seem identical.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #421 on: April 15, 2015, 11:02:15 am »
+1

Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
The ruling says you'd get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the +1 Action token is on the Woodcutter pile.  The ruling also says you'd somehow get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the token is on the BoM pile.

Now, say you're using two different +1 Bonus tokens; one's on the BoM pile and the other's on the Woodcutter pile. If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, the ruling implies you get both bonuses. Apparently, playing BoM-as-Woodcutter triggers "when you play" effects on two separate occasions: once when it's from the BoM pile, and once when it's from the Woodcutter pile.

But, with hypothetical Silver-gaining card, you say you play BoM-as-Woodcutter and it only triggers "when you play" effects once.

Where are you saying the difference is?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #422 on: April 15, 2015, 11:14:26 am »
0

You need to read the cards from the top down and resolve in order. Placing the  action token on the card should add the plus action to the top of BoM. Then BoM tells you to choose another card for it to become but you already have the action. So if woodcutter has a plus card bonus on it, you should read it from the top down once BoM becomes woodcutter and you will get the card bonus at that time. All the same, you only played one action: a single band of misfits, which gave you an action, then became a woodcutter, which gave you an additional card. If you then throne room BoM, you would get one action, then band of misfits becomes woodcutter, so you get 1 card (from your plus card token) 2 coins, 1 buy. Then throne room will play the woodcutter again, so you will get another card, two coins, and a buy. End result: one action, two cards, four coins, two buys.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 11:22:46 am by iguanaiguana »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #423 on: April 15, 2015, 11:51:44 am »
+3

You need to read the cards from the top down and resolve in order. Placing the  action token on the card should add the plus action to the top of BoM. Then BoM tells you to choose another card for it to become but you already have the action. So if woodcutter has a plus card bonus on it, you should read it from the top down once BoM becomes woodcutter and you will get the card bonus at that time. All the same, you only played one action: a single band of misfits, which gave you an action, then became a woodcutter, which gave you an additional card. If you then throne room BoM, you would get one action, then band of misfits becomes woodcutter, so you get 1 card (from your plus card token) 2 coins, 1 buy. Then throne room will play the woodcutter again, so you will get another card, two coins, and a buy. End result: one action, two cards, four coins, two buys.

Except based on previous BoM rulings, you can't actually play BoM because it essentially transforms on the way (unless there are no valid targets). 

I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #424 on: April 15, 2015, 11:57:59 am »
0

You are playing BoM as another card, which is different from BoM saying "when you would play BoM, play it as another card instead".
Okay, now you lost me. These seem identical.

This is all speculation on my part. But in the latter case, BoM negates itself, instead of just changing what it is, so you would never benefit from the +1 action token. Kinda like what Trader does with gains, where you never gain the card in the first place.

Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.
The ruling says you'd get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the +1 Action token is on the Woodcutter pile.  The ruling also says you'd somehow get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the token is on the BoM pile.

Now, say you're using two different +1 Bonus tokens; one's on the BoM pile and the other's on the Woodcutter pile. If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, the ruling implies you get both bonuses. Apparently, playing BoM-as-Woodcutter triggers "when you play" effects on two separate occasions: once when it's from the BoM pile, and once when it's from the Woodcutter pile.

But, with hypothetical Silver-gaining card, you say you play BoM-as-Woodcutter and it only triggers "when you play" effects once.

Where are you saying the difference is?

You are only playing one card.

Except based on previous BoM rulings, you can't actually play BoM because it essentially transforms on the way (unless there are no valid targets).

Was there a case before where whether we actually played BoM mattered?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 12:04:11 pm by pacovf »
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pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.
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