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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 218447 times)

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TheOthin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #325 on: April 06, 2015, 09:41:01 pm »
+1

I want to reiterate the previous concern that Duration cards will miss shuffles, especially in engines, and as a result they will be played less often than non-Duration cards, potentially as little as half as much. (Or less in the case of longer Durations like Hireling.) So you'll get fewer Actions out of putting Lost Arts on a Duration as you will out of putting it on a card you play more often. Reserves have the same concern.

Being terminal draw, Wharf is probably the best Duration target for Lost Arts, but you'd probably get more of a power jump by sticking it on something like Smithy or Moat. Those also have the benefit of being cheaper, especially Moat, so it's easier to have more copies of them so that you get the +1 Action more often. Moat/Lost Arts actually strikes me as a very potent synergy that will probably make Attacks laughable and make the Moat split critical, since who could say no to $2 Labs?
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GreyICE

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #326 on: April 07, 2015, 12:06:12 pm »
0

Attaching this to any duration card is obscene.  Wharf with a side of village on the 2nd?  Sure! 
+action token only works the turn the card is played, so no extra bonus with Durations. The Duration aspect is generally a drawback with the token, though of course a Duration might still be the best target.
Oh.  Well there goes my dreams of having the most absurd double Wharf turn ever. 

*sigh*

I suppose Wharf is probably still a good card anyway.   ;)
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pst

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #327 on: April 07, 2015, 04:42:08 pm »
+1

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."

It wouldn't surprise me if there are translations of Dominion cards that previously were thought to mean the same, but that with Inheritance will mean something else than the original, like in this case. (Not that I know of any.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2015, 05:52:29 pm »
0

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but nobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Assuming it's possible, I have another question that was asked and not replied to:

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Yeah, what does Library actually do? I never thought it would matter (I even said so in another thread), but now it seems like we have to know.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:02:13 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #329 on: April 07, 2015, 05:55:22 pm »
+4

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Assuming it's possible, I have another question that was asked and not replied to:

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Yeah, what does Library actually do? I never thought it would matter (I even said so in another thread), but now it seems like we have to know.

It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.

Library draws past the -1 Card token.  It's been confirmed in this thread already.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #330 on: April 07, 2015, 05:57:11 pm »
+1

I think Library draws.  You draw a card.  If it's an Action, you may choose to set it aside. You keep doing that until there are seven cards in your hand. 

Presumably if there were a -1 Card token on your deck, Library would plow through it.  The first time, you wouldn't draw a card because of the token, and move the token.  Then you'd just keep going and draw until you have seven.

PPE: eHalycon said it.
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pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #331 on: April 07, 2015, 05:57:48 pm »
+1

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #332 on: April 07, 2015, 06:00:06 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure revealing was also explained in this thread already.  The token doesn't interact with revealing, so if you are resolving an effect that reveals the top card(s) of your deck, you move the token, reveal the cards, (possibly put them back) and the move the token back.

The token gets removed instead of drawing a card the next time you would draw a card. Any other mechanics (e.g. revealing), it doesn't interact with.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:01:36 pm by Deadlock39 »
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #333 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:07 pm »
0

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.

Revealing and looking are not drawing; neither is putting in your hand.  You just reveal/look past the token, and put it back when you're done.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:40 pm »
+1


Chancellor is another interesting effect with regard to the token.  I suspect, the token will remain on your (now empty) deck that was moved out from under it and into the discard.

Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2015, 06:02:03 pm »
+3

It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.


Yeah, like maybe you can throw it at  your opponent, and if it hits a card in their hand, they have to discard that card.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2015, 06:04:00 pm »
+2

It is very likely that the -1 Card token will be used for more than just the one revealed Event.  It might be used for a penalty on some powerful action card, or as part of an Attack.


Yeah, like maybe you can throw it at  your opponent, and if it hits a card in their hand, they have to discard that card.

Maybe there is a reaction that lets you tear it up and throw it at your opponents play area when they play an attack. Any card a piece touches is trashed.

pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #337 on: April 07, 2015, 06:05:04 pm »
+1

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

I thought the same as bedlam here, but bobody replied to his post. Can somebody tell me how you can ever reveal cards from your deck when it has -1 Card token on it?

Doctor overpay, for example. Although I guess you are technically looking at them.

Revealing and looking are not drawing; neither is putting in your hand.  You just reveal/look past the token, and put it back when you're done.

I think he is asking how it is possible to reveal cards from your deck after you buy Borrow but before you draw your new hand (which consumes the token).
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #338 on: April 07, 2015, 06:10:33 pm »
0

I didn't ask about how to resolve revealing/looking at cards with the token on your deck. I know that has already been explained. I asked the same as bedlam (who I quoted), namely how that situation could even arise. But eHalcyon answered it, thanks. I was just looking at Borrow, but there are probably other cards.

Searching more thoroughly, I did find Donald's answer to the Library question.

Alsterschwan

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #339 on: April 08, 2015, 07:04:17 am »
0

If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
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Gveoniz

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #340 on: April 08, 2015, 07:13:03 am »
+2

If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I don't think so, but:

Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.

Alsterschwan

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #341 on: April 08, 2015, 07:16:15 am »
0

If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I don't think so, but:

Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Ah, OK. Thanks.
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GwinnR

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #342 on: April 08, 2015, 11:35:51 am »
0

If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I just wanted to ask the same question. It is clear, that you won't gain Golds with this move, but I'm not sure, if you really should be allowed to trash the Estate Map.
Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too. (Sure, Urchin and Hermit also only say "this", but there is no confusion with the meaning of it.)

So, my solution would be, that you play Estate Map and do, what it says, if possible:
1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #343 on: April 08, 2015, 11:59:04 am »
0

Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too.
AFAIK "this" is always the same as "this card".

1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
Possible. It get trashed like a solo TM.

2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
you are right, you have to trash that TM. You are right, it is not "another".

3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
Correct
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Dominionaer

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #344 on: April 08, 2015, 12:04:53 pm »
0

Quote
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.

problem : german card read "if you did" instead "if you trash 2 TM"
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Watno

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #345 on: April 08, 2015, 12:11:13 pm »
+4

On the plus side, the German wording of Envoy and Pirate Ships has the intended effects while the English one doesn't.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #346 on: April 08, 2015, 12:28:58 pm »
+8

If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
Does "another copy of treasure map" refers back "trash this" to be also a treasure map?
I just wanted to ask the same question. It is clear, that you won't gain Golds with this move, but I'm not sure, if you really should be allowed to trash the Estate Map.
Fo me it looks so, that "this" actually refers to "another copy of Treasure Map". Sometimes, if you have to trash or may trash the played card, it tells you to trash "this card" (e.g. Mining Village). As it is here only "this" without "card", I think, that it is meant as "(this and another) copy of Treasure Map", so "this" has to be a Treasure Map too. (Sure, Urchin and Hermit also only say "this", but there is no confusion with the meaning of it.)

So, my solution would be, that you play Estate Map and do, what it says, if possible:
1) Trash this copy of Treasure Map. --> Not possible
2) Trash another copy of Treasure Map from your hand. --> I'm not sure. You can trash a Treasure Map from your hand, but it isn't really "another".
3) If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck. --> You didn't, so you don't get Gold.
When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we, you trash it. It says "trash this" and the next bit saying "another" shouldn't change that.

You trash the you'll-never-have-one-of-these Estate-map, trash a real Treasure Map if you can, and then nothing else happens since you didn't trash two real Maps. "Another" doesn't make sense there in this case, yes.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #347 on: April 08, 2015, 12:44:53 pm »
+3

Discussing things that you'll actually do is no where near as fun as discussing insane edge cases that won't ever happen!
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #348 on: April 08, 2015, 12:53:03 pm »
0

When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we

(This is true, of course, but one of the reasons no one will ever play Estate-Map is because you're on here clarifying the rules about what would happen if they did.)
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #349 on: April 08, 2015, 01:26:33 pm »
+1

When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once, that is the territory we are in and that's fine people like to poke at the rules but let's just keep that in mind shall we

(This is true, of course, but one of the reasons no one will ever play Estate-Map is because you're on here clarifying the rules about what would happen if they did.)
But that's covered by the ruling on the "if you do trash two Treasure Maps" part. Once you aren't getting the treasure, the rest of it is not so exciting.
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