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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 71010 times)

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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #250 on: April 04, 2015, 10:54:36 am »
0

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.

Yup, i thought of inheritance when i wrote that. Ever since that card was previewed it has been drawing all my Dominion-related thoughts on it. i guess Margrave, hunting Grounds, Tortures etc also fit. Hm... Nonterminal Torturers sound nasty, too. They are more expensive, though.

eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #251 on: April 04, 2015, 10:57:41 am »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

I mentioned that earlier, with the caveat that it probably isn't so rosy because

1. That drains the pile of my cheap personal power cards.
2. The other players could buy Inheritance themselves.

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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #252 on: April 04, 2015, 10:57:49 am »
+1

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

So I can now tell the interesting story I had about Hireling... I once put my +1 Action Token on Hireling. Yup. Even though it's a one-shot in terms of how often you play the card. I did it so that I could play multiple on the same turn; then moved my Action Token somewhere else.
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enfynet

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #253 on: April 04, 2015, 11:06:32 am »
0

Who's the jerk that wants to put +1 Action on Possession?
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chipperMDW

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #254 on: April 04, 2015, 11:09:05 am »
+1

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Actually, according to what Donald said last, it should mean the reverse.  If the Estate is no longer yours when Swindler checks its cost, it's no longer an action card, so it just a regular $2 Estate again, and Swindler's giving you a $2... maybe another Estate that turns into a $0 Estate-Scout once it's back in your possession.

And Salvager would give +$2 even though the card was a $0 when you trashed it.

Note also that his latest response means, with regards to your earlier question, your initial guess was correct: if you Transmute an Estate-Scout, it's not yours anymore when Transmute checks it, so it's just a victory card and you only get a Gold, not the Duchy+Gold he initially told you.


Personally, I've always hated the rule that said Procession was supposed to follow its trashed cards around who-knows-where to see whether or not they had turned back into Band of Misfits. (Like some kind of "Keep Track At All Costs" rule.) Looks like Inheritance will bring that rule into play a lot more often, and many trashers will now have to follow their cards around to see whether they've changed types or, with Quarry, costs.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:19:20 am by chipperMDW »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #255 on: April 04, 2015, 11:14:01 am »
0

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.

Sure, if Ironmonger is available. But sometimes you won't have a card like that.

Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #256 on: April 04, 2015, 11:19:55 am »
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Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
No, that just fell out of trying to make it clear what Treasure Map did.
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Rubby

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #257 on: April 04, 2015, 11:32:51 am »
0

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.

It's the "another copy of Treasure Map from your hand" part that stops Throne Room + Treasure Map from working.

"If you do trash two Treasure Maps" could have been shortened to "If you did" and it would have changed nothing pre-Adventures.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:34:34 am by Rubby »
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Throwaway_bicycling

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #258 on: April 04, 2015, 12:22:19 pm »
+1


Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.


I have to admit, the very first card that came to mind to me was Wharf. Then I realized you wouldn't get the +Action next turn as well, so it wouldn't be like the very best card ever...but still. A chainable Wharf that never draws dead would be pretty impressive. Then, on a similar theme, Library. Run your engine down, play Library, and reload.

A second class of cards that can I think really use the +Action are cards like Storeroom and Vault. Storeroom has always needed more support than is sometimes convenient, but +Action helps a lot.

There are also some attacks that are just begging to be chained, like Rabble, Witch, Goons, and even Ambassador. Also very impressive would be a self-sustaining Masquerade chain.

Finally, there are some trashers that I think (surprisingly at first, maybe) get much better. Develop, when you are using it to gain cards you really want, is improved a lot by getting an action so your following cantrip finds something nice. I still kind of suck at this game, but one problem I not infrequently have is terminal collisions with Remake and some other terminal, often an attack. Lost Arts could help me with this personal problem of mine.

So terminal draw is an obvious target, but I think there are lots of situations where Lost Arts could be amazing.
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TheOthin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #259 on: April 04, 2015, 12:32:28 pm »
+3

Wharf's Duration status definitely holds back its compatibility with Lost Arts, since even in the best-case scenario you're only playing each Wharf every two turns rather than every turn. So as terrifyingly powerful as Lost Arts Wharf surely is, Wharf probably doesn't improve as much from Lost Arts as other cards, even ones that will still be weaker with Lost Arts included.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #260 on: April 04, 2015, 12:38:03 pm »
+3

One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.
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GwinnR

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #261 on: April 04, 2015, 12:53:49 pm »
+2

Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #262 on: April 04, 2015, 12:58:33 pm »
+7

Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
They are Victory-Action cards for the rest of the game, so yes they count for Vineyard.
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Throwaway_bicycling

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #263 on: April 04, 2015, 01:24:10 pm »
0

One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.

Excellent point. This does seem like gilding the lily, when you put it that way.

And thinking a bit more about cost, you are spending $6 to make whatever it is better, so having that thing be cheaper helps. And having it be something you want to play a lot helps. So now I'm definitely fascinated by Masquerade.

Which brings me to Oracle, which suddenly becomes an Oracular Laboratory that scries even deeper than Scrying Pool.

And then to Steward, which now gets to choose whether it's a Laboratory, a non-terminal Silver, or a non-terminal trasher. Holy cow; you could build an entire strategy around that.
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brokoli

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #264 on: April 04, 2015, 01:30:17 pm »
+2

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on?
My vote goes to Bridge !
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #265 on: April 04, 2015, 02:09:48 pm »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #266 on: April 04, 2015, 02:22:35 pm »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.
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jonts26

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #267 on: April 04, 2015, 03:39:00 pm »
+3

Lost arts would be incredibly good on minion with a couple helpful terminals.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #268 on: April 04, 2015, 04:17:23 pm »
+3

In a heavy Cultist game with no Trashing, Lost Arts on Ruins could possibly be the right choice.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #269 on: April 04, 2015, 04:23:35 pm »
+1

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.

If Lab was the draw, I think I'd prefer Lost Arts on Goons.  I'd only prefer it on Lab if there were another terminal I really, really wanted to play. Otherwise, putting it on Goons is a lot safer.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #270 on: April 04, 2015, 04:31:53 pm »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.

If Lab was the draw, I think I'd prefer Lost Arts on Goons.  I'd only prefer it on Lab if there were another terminal I really, really wanted to play. Otherwise, putting it on Goons is a lot safer.

It should be trivially true that if there's only 1 terminal that you want to buy, then using Lost City Arts on anything other than that terminal is wrong. Edge case - Diadem.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 07:56:40 pm by GendoIkari »
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joel88s

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #271 on: April 04, 2015, 06:31:22 pm »
0

(Assuming you mean Lost Arts) there's no Diadem pile though.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 06:32:27 pm by joel88s »
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #272 on: April 04, 2015, 06:36:12 pm »
+2

The (loathe-worthy) edge case is that in the case of having a Diadem you could conceivably want to put it on a non-terminal.
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joel88s

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #273 on: April 04, 2015, 07:08:08 pm »
0

I see - to pile up the actions.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #274 on: April 04, 2015, 07:21:00 pm »
+3

Personally, I've always hated the rule that said Procession was supposed to follow its trashed cards around who-knows-where to see whether or not they had turned back into Band of Misfits. (Like some kind of "Keep Track At All Costs" rule.) Looks like Inheritance will bring that rule into play a lot more often, and many trashers will now have to follow their cards around to see whether they've changed types or, with Quarry, costs.

I couldn't agree more. The card i trashed was an action. It's not anymore, but do i need to care? If i buy a red weasel, and its fur turns white, did i buy a white weasel? Is the weasel i bought white? What about the bought weasel? Looking at "the trashed card" as "the card in the trash" over "the card that you did the trashing to" makes about as much sense as vice versa, but has much less favourable gameplay implications. For example that Procession (or any trash for benefit, actually) is assumed to have weird super-tracking skills, or that what you trash and what you get rewarded for drift apart. Alternatively, you get a mildly stronger Procession/BoM interaction. Not exactly a horrible thing to have.

Ah well, the one luxury of IRL Dominion is that you can use house rules.

Edit: Structure.
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