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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 109858 times)

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crlundy

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #175 on: April 03, 2015, 04:25:19 pm »
0

I'd guess no for similar reasons to Workshop not letting you "gain" something from an empty pile (i.e. it doesn't say "Choose a Supply pile. Set aside a card from it.").
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TheOthin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #176 on: April 03, 2015, 04:31:49 pm »
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It says the Estates gain the traits of "that card", not "that pile" - this was crucial for Knights. So if you don't set aside a card you don't get anything.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #177 on: April 03, 2015, 04:37:57 pm »
0

"Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
It's all part of Donald's master plan to make Scout a thing

So it seems that Inheritance could actually make Scout a really good buy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #178 on: April 03, 2015, 04:39:40 pm »
0

Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?

Yes! Buy Borrow. Then buy Rats or Cultist (Or Estate with an Inheritance token on Rats or Cultist). Reveal Watchtower to trash the gained card; draw cards. Or buy Catacombs; trashing it with Watchtower, gaining Rats in response; trashing Rats with Watchtower. Similar thing with Hunting Grounds and gaining Estates with Inheritance.

*Edit* Oops, too slow.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 04:42:45 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #179 on: April 03, 2015, 04:43:36 pm »
0

Hmmm. Sort of convoluted, not sure I like.  Will buy anyway.  Maybe it'll grown on me.
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Cinephile

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #180 on: April 03, 2015, 05:19:17 pm »
+3

Borrow's art is ridiculous in a Wand of Gamelon kind of way. Actually, the guy on the right could be a slightly older Duke Onkled.



No?

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.

You take your Mission turn first, like you would with Outpost + Possession, because the effects resolve in player order and you are the current player. (DXV explained this in Previews #4 here.)
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #181 on: April 03, 2015, 06:10:30 pm »
+2

I'm in favour of calling Estates by cheap puns once they inherit some ability. Like Fortresstate, Harvestate and Ratstate.

By the way, i guess they will still actually be Estates, right? So Ratstates will be able to trash other Ratstates, and gain real Rats, won't they?
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #182 on: April 03, 2015, 06:12:23 pm »
+2

But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
It also stops being yours when you are preventing from getting it due to Possession or Trader.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #183 on: April 03, 2015, 06:21:27 pm »
+6

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
The key difference is how much time I have spent on these questions and what materials I had access to at the time.

I don't see a conversation with Doug about it, so possibly it just randomly ended up that way on isotropic.

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #184 on: April 03, 2015, 06:22:45 pm »
+1

Wait, so Events aren't cards, right? They're Events... which means they aren't affected by Possession's card gaining clause. So you could Borrow while Possessing somebody else's turn, and they'd have to pay it back for their turn. Cool.

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.
You don't get to order Mission vs. Possession, because one is your turn and one is someone else's. They happen in turn order (like passing out Curses). Same as for Outpost, which is covered in the Alchemy rulebook.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #185 on: April 03, 2015, 06:25:15 pm »
+1

Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #186 on: April 03, 2015, 06:26:08 pm »
+3

Can you Inherit an empty pile?  It doesn't have an "if you do" clause about setting the card aside, but then again, you're not placing the token on the pile, you're placing it on the set-aside card, so I'm guessing you can't.
You don't Inheritance a pile, you Inheritance a card. If there's no legal card to set aside, you get nothing.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #187 on: April 03, 2015, 06:29:58 pm »
+11

Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #188 on: April 03, 2015, 06:30:10 pm »
0

Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.

Are the tokens poker chip type things?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #189 on: April 03, 2015, 06:31:27 pm »
0

Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.

Clearly, because Bain cards are cards "from that pile". But yeah, that will surely be asked eventually.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #190 on: April 03, 2015, 06:32:00 pm »
+1

Are the tokens poker chip type things?
They are cardboard. There are larger rectangular ones with text and smaller circular ones with well some of those have text but not much text, e.g. +1 Action, and some have pictures, e.g. a boot on the Journey token.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #191 on: April 03, 2015, 07:06:04 pm »
+4

So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine

No, this only works if you put the Estate token on Mine.
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Throwaway_bicycling

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #192 on: April 03, 2015, 07:29:09 pm »
+3

So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?

(Note: I have no idea whether this is just a Fancy Play most of the time, but the idea of Turn 2 Mercenary in contrived circumstances is amusing.)

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #193 on: April 03, 2015, 07:36:52 pm »
+1

"That Cursed Estate in my Possession causes me Confusion."

Oops, just noticed this doesn't work as it specifies Action card. Nevermind.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 09:42:48 pm by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2015, 07:41:27 pm »
+2

Yeah Pirate Ship Estate is going to be a rules issue no matter what I think. I'm pretty sure that the intent of Pirate Ship is that you get a coin for each token on your Pirate Ship mat no matter what. But then again the card says what it says. Either you have to disobey that part of Pirate Ship's wording, and allow the Estate Ship tokens to count; or you'd have to ignore the Estate Ship's wording about putting the token on the mat. Because once a token is on the mat, there's no tracking where it came from.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #195 on: April 03, 2015, 08:04:09 pm »
+9

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?
"This" means the card, whatever that card is. It works when the card gets Inherited.

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?
Yes.

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
I am tentatively ruling that it counts all of the tokens on the mat. Obv. that's not what it literally says.

Pirate Ship has that wording due to originally having no mat. And then not having the work put into it to have the best possible wording once it had a mat. Trade Route was similar but then it got a better wording that accounted for the mat. That's just some history, it's not really relevant but there it is.
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nemryn

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #196 on: April 03, 2015, 08:19:16 pm »
0

With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #197 on: April 03, 2015, 08:21:00 pm »
0

So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #198 on: April 03, 2015, 08:50:24 pm »
+1

With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
Yes it's just like the card said +1 Action at the top of its text box, it's resolved at that time.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #199 on: April 03, 2015, 08:51:31 pm »
+5

So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
Your Baron thing works, but Talisman can't gain Victory cards.
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