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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 126604 times)

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ephesos

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2015, 01:24:40 pm »
+1

Suppose I have an Inheritance token on Scout. Then, I buy an Estate. When does it become Scout?
Estates in the Supply, obviously, are not mine (otherwise Dominion becomes really easy for me), so they aren't Scout. So they wouldn't be gainable by Stonemason overpay/University.
But when does the card become "mine"? Is it an on-gain effect? Or does it have some sort of precedence, i.e. before all on-gain effects, or after all of them?

What happens if I Ironworks for an Estate?
Does Ironworks gain the Estate, look at it, go "Oh, that's one of my Estates, it's also Scout, so it's an Action. Here, have +1 Action +1 Card."
Or does it go "Oh, I gained an Estate, that's a Victory. It wasn't mine, cause I had to gain it, so it wasn't a Scout yet. So only +1 Card, I guess..."

Feels to me like it should be the first one, since you gain the card, then look at it. So somewhere sneakily in the middle, between gaining and checking, an inheritance lawyer comes and tells the Estate that it should now pretend like it's a Scout, and tell other cards that it is an Action. But is that a new step? Or is a card becoming "mine" an on-gain effect, so we could interrupt it with cards like Watchtower and Trader, and order the stacked on-gain effects that we control?

Edit: Damn, ninja'd
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2015, 01:25:00 pm »
+1

Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
Yeah I have had the experience. You will be inheriting some Islands.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2015, 01:26:08 pm »
+6

So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
Yes you get the Ruinses. The Estate is "yours" from the moment you buy it; when-buy and when-gain abilities trigger.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2015, 01:27:40 pm »
0

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.

Whoops, right.  We were just talking about that.  ::)
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2015, 01:27:56 pm »
+2

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
Ironworks will get you the bonuses for turning Estate into an Action, but never gives double for a bonus. It's either a Victory card or it isn't; if it is you get +1 Card.

Also you can't inherit Great Halls.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2015, 01:29:47 pm »
+6

This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
It's all a question of what you get out of your complexity. You want it to count. Those extra words on Soothsayer get you very little. Inheritance existing gets you Inheritance.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2015, 01:31:32 pm »
+2

But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
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ephesos

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2015, 01:32:11 pm »
+2

So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine, and then all on-gain effects would trigger. So it would be Messenger, and inherit Messenger's text about being the first card bought this turn. So all of my opponents would gain an Estate.
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matste

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2015, 01:33:17 pm »
+1

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2015, 01:36:16 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.



Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
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ephesos

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2015, 01:36:48 pm »
+1

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.
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ephesos

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2015, 01:38:22 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2015, 01:40:50 pm »
+2

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

You only have one Estate token, so buying Inheritance a second time would move it from one to another.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2015, 01:41:52 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).
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Sidsel

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2015, 01:43:33 pm »
+1

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.

Ah! I thought it just defined the type of action card I could use, specifying supply as opposed to an action card not in the supply - like a ruins or Black Market for example.
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AJD

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2015, 01:44:38 pm »
+3

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.

I don't know what the answer to the question is, but I do know that the lose-track rule doesn't play a role in it; nothing is trying to move anything that has already been moved.
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2015, 01:45:19 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".
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Galzria

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2015, 01:47:26 pm »
+2

Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2015, 01:49:29 pm »
+1

Does an Inherited Border Village force a gain of less than $2 when buying Estates (I would think so, but confirming nonetheless.)?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

crlundy

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2015, 01:50:19 pm »
0

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #145 on: April 03, 2015, 01:53:01 pm »
0

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".

Yes, and my question is why that is the case.  That is exactly what I was asking about.
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matste

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #146 on: April 03, 2015, 01:55:00 pm »
+3

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
I suppose changing Estate-Caravan into Estate-Fishing Village would be too confusing.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #147 on: April 03, 2015, 02:00:20 pm »
+4

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold. If you Inheritance Fortress and trash Estate, it goes back to your hand. In the case of Fortress, it was a Fortress when you trashed it, so the ability triggered. In the case of Transmute, I can see thinking that it's no longer an Action when we check. I don't have the rulebook handy now and am just going by isotropic; Doug tends to ask all these questions too.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #148 on: April 03, 2015, 02:01:42 pm »
+6

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
It was something you would rarely want to do, that caused horrible rules issues.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #149 on: April 03, 2015, 02:03:25 pm »
+5

Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
When you trash the Estate you can gain 3 Estates, which you can refer to as Hunting Groundses because we all know what you mean even though in fact they are Estates.
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