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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 109847 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:18 pm »
0

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2015, 12:54:06 pm »
0

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2015, 12:54:46 pm »
0

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2015, 12:55:35 pm »
+2

At first glance, positive tokens like the one from Lost Arts sound like they should work well with Messenger.  Put the token on a thing, use Messenger to gain that thing.  Everybody else gets a copy but your copy is better than theirs.

But I guess it wouldn't actually work out so well because you'll be emptying the pile of buffed things you want to buy.
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Willvon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2015, 12:57:51 pm »
+1

Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

This could really increase the value of Diadem as a prize, couldn't it?  It's more often the forgotten stepchild in games we play that include Tournament.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2015, 12:57:59 pm »
+1

So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.
...

Man, there's a thread for tooting your own horn!
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2015, 12:58:47 pm »
+1

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?

Yeah.  It gains the abilities, which is to trash this and a (different) Treasure Map from your hand.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2015, 01:00:39 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
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Moneymodel

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #108 on: April 03, 2015, 01:01:48 pm »
0

Man, no WONDER they're revamping the online platform with these crazy things.

Inheritance is blowing my mind.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #109 on: April 03, 2015, 01:02:17 pm »
+3

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?

Hmm: Cult Estates can allow you to play Cultists, but not vice versa. You can trash Rat Estates with Rats to replace them with other Rats.
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Willvon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #110 on: April 03, 2015, 01:03:58 pm »
0

Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

Edit: I just saw some mention a reference to player colors. I guess I missed that earlier.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:05:42 pm by Willvon »
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matste

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2015, 01:05:51 pm »
+1

Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?
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Gveoniz

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2015, 01:06:18 pm »
+6

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Edit:
Only think of it because of this:


So... wait, it's always worth $4 then, right? That's ridiculously OP for $2, is this meant to be a joke?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:07:53 pm by Gveoniz »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2015, 01:06:29 pm »
0

Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

There are 60 tokens, presumably 10 tokens in each of 6 different colours.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2015, 01:09:40 pm »
0

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

No. Using inheritance doesn't effect supply piles, so the Estate pile is still simply Estates and so cannot be used by BoM.

Quote
Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

The same as Great Hall etc (+2 cards, +2 actions if at least one revealed card is an Estate, and that player's Estates are improved).
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2015, 01:11:11 pm »
+4

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2015, 01:11:46 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Oh, right, good call.  I was thinking it would work the other way with Fool's Gold and not be giving ubermoney.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2015, 01:12:15 pm »
+2

Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

BoM thing probably doesn't work.  Inheritance says your Estates gain the abilities and type, but Estates in the Supply are not yours.  They're just regular Estates.

Sir Estate will still fall if it attacks another Knight.

Suppose you use Inheritance for Village and the other player (in a 2p game) has not used Inheritance.  When you play Tribute and flip up their Estates, they are still just regular VP cards.  If your opponent plays Tribute and flips your Estates, they are Action/Victory and give them the corresponding bonuses.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2015, 01:13:34 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.

Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:15:07 pm by Witherweaver »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2015, 01:14:35 pm »
+3

What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
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AdamH

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2015, 01:17:44 pm »
+3

So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2015, 01:19:36 pm »
+2

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2015, 01:21:54 pm »
+3

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.
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Rubby

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2015, 01:22:42 pm »
+2

So Estate-as-X is really different from Band of Misfits-as-X.

This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2015, 01:24:00 pm »
+5

What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
Band gives you benefits both from tokens on itself, and tokens on the card you play it as. You play Band as a specific card, which is from a specific pile.
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