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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 126605 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2015, 11:33:07 am »
+3

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

"Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply..."
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chipperMDW

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2015, 11:33:37 am »
+1

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:57:21 am by chipperMDW »
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2015, 11:34:27 am »
+5

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.
I'm more impressed by Inheritance on turn 1 being a thing.  As in oh look, I drew a copper and 3 Ironmongers on turn 2.
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jonts26

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2015, 11:34:34 am »
0

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2015, 11:35:16 am »
0

Erm, these feel really convoluted. Just how many distinct tokens are we actually going to be getting with this expansion?

10.
We have:

+1 coin/action/buy/card
-1 card/coin
Estate token

That means there are 3 more. But Donald said there are only two more? Maybe the last preview today will reveal one of them.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2015, 11:37:00 am »
+4

My god, Borrow is UGLY.

Yeah, Adventures had to outdo Candlestick Maker somewhere, I guess.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2015, 11:39:34 am »
+2

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2015, 11:44:10 am »
+1

Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Very very close to enough, but I don't think you can get the fortress in hand quickly enough. However, I have an idea... let's move this to the empty supply in 3 turns thread.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8448.msg478811
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chipperMDW

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2015, 11:45:39 am »
0

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
Well, if Library is really drawing, then it works like all the other draw-up-to-X cards and effectively counters the token. If it's not (for whatever reason), then it leaves the token alone.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2015, 11:45:58 am »
+8

Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
This seems really, really powerful. Smithy seems perhaps the best, because Double-Lab is so very strong, but really there are lots of cheap actions which this will be very good on. Pawn becomes Village-or-Peddler-or... yeah, that's pretty good. Pearl Diver even becomes Village-with-upside. Any Moat-like card turns into Lab-plus. Terminal silvers are much more meh, but even there, this is ok. Spam Monuments or Swindlers or dare I say Goonseseses? Yes, please, at least if I couldn't otherwise. Really it seems to me like in games with this, very often you will race to accomplish: Setting this, driving the very-undercosted pile you've set it to, maybe trying to contest the pile your opponent has set. +Buy will be big for that pile-drive, especially setting it on a cheap thing, which often I guess you should. And then we're looking at pretty quick 3-piles. It's worse the more expensive the action you want to hit is, but well, it's not bad on expensive things exactly. It seems like usually it will totally shift that game around. I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

Borrow: In a vacuum, this doesn't seem great, since a card is usually better than the money. On the other hand, now is more important than later. Obviously if I am ending the game, the next turn won't matter. If I am getting hit with a discard attack anyway, this is somewhat mitigated, but not entirely - the ability to look a card deeper is a real thing for sure. Against a sure Minion attack, this is pretty free, and against a sure Pillage attack, it's even a benefit. Also, you could just use this to make sure you don't trigger a shuffle at some point, if you've tracked your deck very well. And of course, sometimes that extra $ is really worth it, because e.g. 5 is so much better than 4. So the flexibility on this will make it reasonably powerful, even if on average the effect is really not worth it. Really not a gamebreaker, but quite nice utility.

Inheritance: Hehe, I had the idea of turning victory cards into... I think it was just copper, quite a while back. This is surely a better implementation. 7 is a lot, so this will be somewhat hit-and-miss. I mean, if you can trash the estates away somewhat efficiently, that's got to usually be better. If you can't, though, especially if you can spike this early, it will be pretty nice. It gets three junk out of your deck in one fell swoop, plus gives you an efficiently-costed, points-laden pile of something. All of this assuming, of course, there's a somewhat spammable pile of cheap actions which isn't already empty.

liopoil

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #85 on: April 03, 2015, 11:53:34 am »
+9

Here's why I like borrow so much: It reduces luck. A lot of time in dominion, you get screwed because you hit 4/4 second shuffle on a mountebank board, or 2P on a familiar board, or 7 in the endgame. Borrow softens the blow a ton. It's a lot like coin tokens, except you always have them. It gives you just one more choice every turn of the game, which I think is great. Usually you wont take it, but it is important that you do take it when you need to. I think the choice is especially interesting during the first 4 turns of the game. It's a lot like baker, and I like baker. It's even better though, because its available every single turn, without having to actually buy baker.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:54:49 am by liopoil »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2015, 12:07:43 pm »
+1

Oh, hey. I bet this was brought up yesterday, but Bridge and Highway don't reduce Event costs.
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2015, 12:08:38 pm »
+1

Bear in mind that you only have one +1 Action token; you can only have it on one card pile at a time.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2015, 12:38:42 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2015, 12:41:51 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2015, 12:44:44 pm »
+3

So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.

Quote
This is the 9th addition to the game of Dominion. It has 400 cards, 6 mats, and 60 tokens. There are 30 new Kingdom cards, including the return of Duration cards that do things on future turns, plus Reserve cards that can be saved for the right moment. There are also 20 Event cards that give you something to buy besides cards, including tokens that modify cards.

My thought is mainly about that last line -- tokens that modify cards, which are things you can buy via events.  I figured that there would be a common supply of tokens which would modify cards for all players, but the recent reveal that there are player colours makes it even more compelling.

I don't know how Events will be incorporated.  Maybe they will just be things chosen at the start of the game, as you described in the OP.  Maybe there will be specific cards that trigger events. 

Anyway, I figure there will be an event that lets players buy "Progress Tokens" (arbitrary name here).  You put the token on a card in the supply (maybe restricted to action cards, maybe not).  Copies of cards have the bonuses associated with tokens on their supply pile.  I suppose they should only last while the card is still in the supply, but maybe you could keep the effects and trust that people can remember, or you could use the randomizers maybe.

In my original idea, I also figured that the cost of the cards should increase by $1 for each token on them.  But with player colours, it's simpler.  You pay the upfront cost for the token and the benefit is only for you.  If it's only a blue token on the card, only the blue player gets that bonus.

There are 10 tokens for each player.  So what could the effects be?  The vanilla bonuses are 4 obvious ones.  Another obvious one is a token that makes each copy of the card worth 1VP more.  You could also have a simple cost reduction token.  An interesting bonus would be a cost increase, which is only a bonus in combination with TfB (or Border Village).  Maybe a token could add "trash a card" as an effect.  Maybe a token could transform a card into a Reserve card, whatever that means.  A token could make the card untrashable like Fortress.  Or a token could give a card the Moat reaction.  There are many possibilities, though they should be kept simple.

For clarity -- the effects of tokens on a card should be resolved before you resolve the actual card text, for the tokens that give it bonuses on play.  This is just to make it easier to track things (think tokens on KC).

These token shenanigans need not be restricted to event cards.  For example, here's one idea:

[Card idea redacted because Donald doesn't want to see fan cards, man there is a forum for that.  But you can see what my idea was if you click through the link on the quote title!]
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2015, 12:44:59 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)

I would think not - it just says abilities and types.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2015, 12:45:49 pm »
+1

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

I don't think Treasure Map works, since the Estates don't inherit the name of the card, only the abilities and types (is abilities well-defined? Is "can be trashed by a/nother Treasure Map" an ability of Treasure Map for this purpose? I don't think so). I'd say the one you're trashing from your hand must be an actual Map.

Actually, I don't think "If you trashed two Treasure Maps" is satisfied even by a Map and an Estate, since you only trashed one card with the name "Treasure Map". So maybe it doesn't work at all.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2015, 12:47:14 pm »
+4

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2015, 12:47:41 pm »
+2

So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2015, 12:48:06 pm »
0

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?

Hmm. I think you're right.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2015, 12:49:33 pm »
0

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #97 on: April 03, 2015, 12:52:06 pm »
+3

It's well known that big money has gotten worse and worse as more expansions come out, but now big money feels like it will be absurdly rare in any game with just a couple adventures cards in it. So many engine-in-a-box cards here.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2015, 12:52:31 pm »
+5

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Correct.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:01 pm »
+3

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
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