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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 218494 times)

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GwinnR

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #350 on: April 08, 2015, 02:38:11 pm »
0

Ok. Thanks again!
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blueblimp

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #351 on: April 08, 2015, 05:09:10 pm »
0

When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once
It's unlikely, but maybe it's a 1-in-1000 kind of play. People sometimes buy Mint just to trash coppers even if they don't want the Mint effect, and inheriting Treasure Maps is kinda similar but for Estates. There has to be nothing better to inherit (at $4 or less), and nothing better to do with $7 than a delayed trash of your Estates. The kind of kingdom to make this happen would need copper trashing but no estate trashing (apart from the inherit map combo), and a powerful engine payload but weak-or-no draw. Something like Treasure Map, Moneylender, Goons, Bazaar is pretty close, although maybe the payload is not quite blockbuster enough.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #352 on: April 08, 2015, 05:42:53 pm »
+1

When you play Estate-Map, which you never will, not once
It's unlikely, but maybe it's a 1-in-1000 kind of play. People sometimes buy Mint just to trash coppers even if they don't want the Mint effect, and inheriting Treasure Maps is kinda similar but for Estates. There has to be nothing better to inherit (at $4 or less), and nothing better to do with $7 than a delayed trash of your Estates. The kind of kingdom to make this happen would need copper trashing but no estate trashing (apart from the inherit map combo), and a powerful engine payload but weak-or-no draw. Something like Treasure Map, Moneylender, Goons, Bazaar is pretty close, although maybe the payload is not quite blockbuster enough.

But if you're buying Inheritance, you can almost always play it on another card so that you're Estates do something better than terminally trash themselves (and you get the extra 3 VP that way).  There would basically have to be no other $4 or cheaper cards in the kingdom, and yet still be a board where you want to trash your Estates (and you're willing to pay $7 to do it very slowly), AND you have to have Treasure Map and Inheritance in the kingdom.  I think it's a lot less than 1 in 1000.
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TheOthin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #353 on: April 08, 2015, 05:45:12 pm »
+1

Pearl Diver in the kingdom means you can turn your Estates into slightly improved Great Halls instantaneously rather than having to draw and burn Actions on each of them, which is like 100x better than Estate Maps.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #354 on: April 08, 2015, 05:50:35 pm »
0

Pearl Diver in the kingdom means you can turn your Estates into slightly improved Great Halls instantaneously rather than having to draw and burn Actions on each of them, which is like 100x better than Estate Maps.

But Goons is a discard attack!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #355 on: April 08, 2015, 05:51:31 pm »
+4

Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #356 on: April 08, 2015, 06:08:14 pm »
+2

Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #357 on: April 08, 2015, 06:08:48 pm »
+1

Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance.

I think you mean just "3 Estates" not "3 pairs of Estates".  Or 6 Estates, if you want.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #358 on: April 08, 2015, 06:15:45 pm »
0

Clearly this is just one more reason why Making Fun needs to implement achievements.

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 pairs of Estates via Treasure Map Inheritance.

I think you mean just "3 Estates" not "3 pairs of Estates".  Or 6 Estates, if you want.

Oh shoot.  I mean:

Misleading Maps -- Trash 3 sets of (Treasure Map-inherited) Estate and Treasure Map.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #359 on: April 08, 2015, 06:18:52 pm »
0

Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

And I mean, look, for just $7 you can trash all three starting Estates whenever you want.  This would cost $12 with buying Treasure Maps themselves.  (Or just $8 to get the 4-gold bonus.)  And you're still stuck with your starting Estates.  Either way, a $7 now for three Golds and three less Estates later is a deal!
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Arctic Penguin

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #360 on: April 08, 2015, 06:21:16 pm »
0

Hmm, how can we find a use for Estate Maps... Well it's a stretch but here goes!

Your opponent goes for Treasure Maps and then Embargoes them multiple times after getting two. You set up a Market Square megaturn, but there's no trashing available and buying a Treasure Map will waste a turn and clog your deck with curses. On a 7$ hand, you buy Inheritance to turn your Estates into Treasure Maps so you can trash them to activate a big hand full of Market Squares. You draw your deck with Storytellers and trash one Estate Map at a time to discard all of your Market Squares for lots of Gold. Then you spend 3 Golds and another Storyteller to draw 10 cards, mostly your discarded Market Squares and newly gained Golds. You repeat this until you run out of Storytellers or Estate Maps and then you end the game with tons of money and all of your extra Market Square buys.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 06:22:25 pm by Arctic Penguin »
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shmeur

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #361 on: April 08, 2015, 06:24:38 pm »
+8

Possession somebody to force their Estate token on Treasure Map.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #362 on: April 08, 2015, 06:25:26 pm »
0

Maybe you want to trash down but can not trash VP cards (e.g. Moneylender/Spice Merchant).
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Holger

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #363 on: April 09, 2015, 05:59:03 am »
0

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?
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SCSN

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #364 on: April 09, 2015, 06:26:56 am »
+5

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #365 on: April 09, 2015, 07:33:30 am »
+3

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.

...which is why repeatedly revealing Moat ruins so many games.

Emeric

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #366 on: April 09, 2015, 07:43:31 am »
+1

I am sorry if the question have already asked but I just think it. If there is a token on a card (exemple a +1 action on Envoy) and I buy Inheritance to put my estate token on Envoy. Do my estate gain also the +1 action ?
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Squidd

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #367 on: April 09, 2015, 07:50:10 am »
+8

The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #368 on: April 09, 2015, 06:53:07 pm »
+2

The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #369 on: April 09, 2015, 07:13:23 pm »
+2

The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...

That pile ain't yours, son!
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Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #370 on: April 09, 2015, 07:20:02 pm »
+5

The token gives you an action when you play a card from that pile, and your Estates are not from that pile.

Yup, but if you're +1 Action token was on the estate pile...

That pile ain't yours, son!

True. While Donald allready explained that starting Estates come from the Estate pile (so they are "cards from that pile"), Estates in the supply are not Action cards, and you can not put the Lost Arts token on them.

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

You could:
1. King's Court all your Market Squares to get immmense amounts of buys
2. Play five Highways
3. Buy Borrow, getting +$1
4. Buy Cultist for $0
5. Trash it with Watchtower, drawing 3-1 cards
6. Repeat steps 3. to 5., getting +$1 and +2 cards per buy until either the Cultist pile or your buys run out
7. Spend your last buy on Colony, or buy some Farmlands to trash something you drew, or whatever you plan to do with a bunch of cards and/or +$1s

The same works with Rats, just here the pile doesn't run out as fast and you don't draw as much. Obviously it's still rather constructed, so there might just as well be some Adventures cards behind this.
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sudgy

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #371 on: April 09, 2015, 07:23:03 pm »
0

Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

I have many extra actions, play four Estates as Treasure Maps, discarding four Market Squares for Golds, using Watchtower to topdeck them.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Asper

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #372 on: April 09, 2015, 07:25:37 pm »
+1

Clearly there no trashing on the board save Treasure Map itself and yet you desperately need to trigger Market Square.

I have many extra actions, play four Estates as Treasure Maps, discarding four Market Squares for Golds, using Watchtower to topdeck them.

Couldn't you just, you know, use Watchtower to trash a bought Copper? That might have a slightly lower opportunity cost...

Or were you being ironic?
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #373 on: April 09, 2015, 07:28:49 pm »
+3

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
Why? The if clause still prevents you from using it more than once that turn.

So what's the point of the "once per turn" clause here? Buying Borrow more than once per turn would make no sense anyway, since there's no Treasure cards that "draw" cards (and thus remove the -1 Card token) AFAICS. Is it just for clarity, or due to some unrevealed Adventures cards?

Without the "once per turn" clause the best strategy on a Borrow board would be for P1 to keep buying Borrow on T1 until his opponent either resigns or dies of despair.
That's more or less the reason. "Once per turn" was happening anyway (it's on Mission), and here was an Event that cost $0 and gave you your Buy back. LF complained that you could buy it repeatedly. So it says "once per turn." I did not realize that some people would read that as "every turn for the rest of the game."
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pacovf

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #374 on: April 09, 2015, 07:32:05 pm »
+2

Man, LastFootnote, this is why we can't have nice things.
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