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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 80351 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #225 on: April 04, 2015, 09:16:49 am »
+2

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #226 on: April 04, 2015, 09:19:14 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #227 on: April 04, 2015, 09:21:27 am »
0

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.
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shmeur

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #228 on: April 04, 2015, 09:22:55 am »
+3

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #229 on: April 04, 2015, 09:23:32 am »
+3

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #230 on: April 04, 2015, 09:25:14 am »
+1

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #231 on: April 04, 2015, 09:25:53 am »
0

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.

Not with Black Market, or the new card Storyteller.

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shmeur

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #232 on: April 04, 2015, 09:27:52 am »
+1

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.

And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #233 on: April 04, 2015, 09:30:48 am »
0

Ah well, what Inheritance does is very similar to increasing the value of a specific cheap action card by making it cost $2 and giving a VP. I don't think you would want to have a deck full of Barons, even if they all were worth 1 VP and costed only $2. Sure, Baron-Estate (i got no pun to use here) can gain copies of itself, but it's still a terminal action. In a similar way, you wouldn't want to make Scouts of your Estates. That doesn't mean that a deck full of Highwaystates doesn't have use for a Scout or Baron, i think.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #234 on: April 04, 2015, 09:33:57 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #235 on: April 04, 2015, 09:37:33 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

Well I didn't know if you had seen that post; it's also worth noting that Donald +1'd it, which does pretty much mean that it's correct. But yes, I agree that the card wording by itself is confusing. But if the "once per turn" were not meant to stop you from purchasing it only once; then there would be no need to have it there at all... the "if" clause would already prevent it anyway. The only thing "once per turn" does is stops you from buying an unlimited number of this event. Which could matter if there were ever a card similar to Goons that gives you something when you buy an event.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #236 on: April 04, 2015, 09:39:57 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

I'm on the side of: Buy it as much as you want, but the effect only happens once.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #237 on: April 04, 2015, 09:47:00 am »
0

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #238 on: April 04, 2015, 09:50:00 am »
+1

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #239 on: April 04, 2015, 09:58:01 am »
0

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #240 on: April 04, 2015, 10:07:27 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work on a technical standpoint, but I'm sure it's wrong anyways.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:09:00 am by Seprix »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #241 on: April 04, 2015, 10:08:53 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #242 on: April 04, 2015, 10:10:19 am »
0

Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #243 on: April 04, 2015, 10:12:48 am »
0

Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #244 on: April 04, 2015, 10:22:30 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."

Play Estate Treasure Map.
Trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand.
Add four bags of dirt to your deck.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #245 on: April 04, 2015, 10:23:21 am »
+1

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #246 on: April 04, 2015, 10:35:13 am »
+3

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #247 on: April 04, 2015, 10:47:03 am »
0

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy. Envoy's power is greatly reduced if you play it with your last action, and more so than Smithy. Assuming that for both cards this was considered when balancing them, Envoy gains more from becoming nonterminal than Smithy, and so should be a superior target.

Edit: That's assuming that without Lost Arts on the board they are equally strong on avarage, which i'm pretty sure isn't the case. I can only argue from a theoretical design position, though, as i'm not good enough a player to compare Envoy to Smithy in general. Anyhow, however Envoy's basic strength compares to Smithy, it gains more from the +1 Action in my opinion.

Edit 2: Assuming Envoy gets more from this than Smithy, you can think about whether other, more expansive drawers are better. Torturer is harsher when you chain them, Cultist can act fairly nonterminal anyhow. I personally thought of Inheritance and limited myself to cards costing $4 or less. Either way, they ARE easier to get, which is a huge plus.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #248 on: April 04, 2015, 10:49:19 am »
+1

Don't discredit yourself; your logic is perfectly sound.  I agree terminal draw is generally the best target, but terminal payoff cards like merchant guild are great too.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #249 on: April 04, 2015, 10:50:34 am »
+2

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.
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