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Author Topic: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance  (Read 107597 times)

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Donald X.

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Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« on: April 03, 2015, 09:51:17 am »
+40

Here at last are tokens. They are used some by non-Events too, but today, three more Events. I like to have all of the cards in one preview have the same orientation.



Lost Arts produces a +1 Action token, which modifies a pile so that those cards give you personally +1 Action. Each player has their own token. Say you put the token on Smithy; for you, Smithy is +1 Action +3 Cards, but for everyone else, it's still +3 Cards (unless they also put their token on Smithy). For example. So uh there's probably something good you can do with that. That Smithy example doesn't sound half-bad. The token on Smithy affects all of the Smithies you have, and any Smithies you get later; it's just a different card for you. It's like a giant pile of Villages that are always there when you need them for a particular action, for a one-time payment of $6 and a Buy. You are probably wondering, is there also a +1 Buy token, a +1 Card token, a +$1 token? Yes, of course there are those too.

Borrow shows off a minus. There are just -1 Card and -$1; -1 Action and -1 Buy would be no fun. Borrow gives you an extra +$1 this turn, but you'll draw one less card the next time you draw cards, that's what that -1 Card thing is about. You get one less card the next time you'd draw any cards, any which way; for Borrow though that's probably when you draw your next hand. So, four cards that turn instead of five, and well make sure it's worth it. You don't want an endless spiral of debt, where you Borrow turn after turn. -$1 meanwhile (not pictured - well neither one is pictured, but you know what I mean) just reduces how many coins you make by $1 the next time you make any. The minus tokens are used on a few cards each, sometimes to give to yourself and sometimes to make other players take them.

Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.

That's it for previews, except for the other preview for today, if you haven't seen that one yet. Go see it (if it's not up yet this may take a while). Okay so. That's it for previews. You've seen 20 cards out of 58; there are still 17 more kingdom cards, 14 more Events, 7 more things that Page and Peasant turn into, and 2 mysterious tokens. No doubt someone will post the rest of the set once people have it. We are expecting the set out April 18th and well someone will keep us posted if that changes.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 09:57:30 am by theory »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 09:53:19 am »
0

amazed
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 09:58:07 am »
+4

This changes everything.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 09:59:04 am »
+8

Oh man I'd forgotten about Inheritance amazingly enough. Definitely the most bizarre thing to happen to Dominion. (Since Bazaar). I don't think I ever had a chance to use it, but I spent several minutes just assuming that either JSH or Donald was trolling us.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 09:59:48 am »
+2

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 10:05:49 am »
0

These events add another layer of depth to the game. This can only be good for Dominion, really looking forward to these.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 10:06:37 am »
+3

Inheritance: "Why did I just buy an Estate for $6 on turn 6?!"
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 10:08:27 am »
+4

So if I buy both Inheritance and Lost Arts calling the same action card, do I get +1 action when I play my Estate?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 10:08:58 am »
+1

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 10:09:32 am »
0

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 10:09:41 am »
+8

So if I buy both Inheritance and Lost Arts calling the same action card, do I get +1 action when I play my Estate?
No. Your Estates aren't from that pile.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 10:09:59 am »
+8

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 10:11:57 am »
+1

So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

Edit: And re-reading, I can't even get $1 per turn (without something to move my -1 card token somewhere else), just once total ever overall period.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:16:28 am by WanderingWinder »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 10:12:11 am »
+3

That Borrower is like, so psyched to be borrowing.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2015, 10:13:31 am »
0

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2015, 10:14:39 am »
0

So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

I'm having the same issue as WW. My reading of Borrower would make it seem like the penalty kicks in every turn, especially since the Lost Arts token just sits there forever.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2015, 10:15:10 am »
+4

-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2015, 10:15:36 am »
+10

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

Start with 5 Copper hand. Opponent opens Lost City, Draw Copper #6. $1 from Baker token, $1 from Borrower.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2015, 10:16:10 am »
+2

-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2015, 10:16:47 am »
+6

Adventures has several design themes, but to me the most significant one is what's seen here: customization and creativity.  We saw it a bit with some of the previous cards, but what this set does so well is make you think of a wacky way to play the game your own way.  Maybe you make your own Smithy variant that gets +Action, maybe you have inherited Conspirators, maybe you come up with some crazy Estate pile out with Messenger.  Adventures opens up the doors to higher level thinking in a big way.

Buy Adventures today!  Mention my name and get a .0000001% discount.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2015, 10:20:28 am »
+10

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2015, 10:21:18 am »
+1

May I move my "+1 action token" buying Lost Arts again later or my token is on my pile for the rest of the game ?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2015, 10:21:28 am »
+3

-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."

All the events that start with "Once per turn:" mean that you are only allowed to buy that event once per turn. Nothing to do with the effect.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2015, 10:22:21 am »
+5

May I move my "+1 action token" buying Lost Arts again later or my token is on my pile for the rest of the game ?

You can buy it again to move it again. Unlike Inheritance, which says "once per game." That one is a permanent decision.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2015, 10:23:12 am »
0

Borrow is a bit confusing with the -1 card token. So I borrow in one turn and have a 4-card hand next turn. If I borrow again next turn with the 4-card hand, do I have only have a 3-card hand next turn?

Lost Action was sort of expected, but I think it's something we all wanted to see. It's cool how you can rebuy the event to move the token around as needed.

Borrow is a bit stranger, but it's another way to even put openings like the Baker Token, plus you can borrow to not miss that key $5 or $3P on the second shuffle. Sounds good.

Inheritance, wow uh, that's quite the event.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2015, 10:23:30 am »
+3

I want this now
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2015, 10:23:53 am »
0

-1 card means that you draw one less card the next time you draw.  After that I assume it goes away.

But it says "once per turn," not "once."

The effect of buying it is to move your token. The token moving off when you draw would be a separate rule.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2015, 10:25:09 am »
0

If I use Inheritance to set aside a card from a pile with a +1 Action token on it, does the estate get +1 Action? Or more fundamentally, does the additional action come solely from the token or does the token imbue the cards themselves with +1 Action?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2015, 10:25:52 am »
+1

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

With Borrow and Baker, you're only getting up to $7.

EDIT: Saw Gendo's post now.  So many posts.  Posts.  Posts everywhere.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:30:37 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2015, 10:26:48 am »
+9

Here are the beards we've all been waiting for!
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2015, 10:27:07 am »
+3

To clear up some confusion on the -Card token, just think of it like this.  You're putting a "card" on top of your deck that just happens to be a token.  Whenever you draw this card, it's removed.  So Borrow doesn't stack.  There's only one -Card token on the deck ever.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2015, 10:27:35 am »
+1

Borrow is a bit confusing with the -1 card token. So I borrow in one turn and have a 4-card hand next turn. If I borrow again next turn with the 4-card hand, do I have only have a 3-card hand next turn?

Lost Action was sort of expected, but I think it's something we all wanted to see. It's cool how you can rebuy the event to move the token around as needed.

Borrow is a bit stranger, but it's another way to even put openings like the Baker Token, plus you can borrow to not miss that key $5 or $3P on the second shuffle. Sounds good.

Inheritance, wow uh, that's quite the event.

The only effect Borrow has is to move the -1 card token to your draw pile (and give you +$1). You only have one -1 card token. The next time you draw, the first card you would draw is replaced with removing the token. It's like you draw the token because that's what's on top, then keep drawing like normal. So you get a 4 card hand if you would have gotten a 5 card hand. Next turn you'll get a 5 card hand unless you Borrow again.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2015, 10:28:18 am »
0

I'm pretty sure the -1 card token goes away, as if you drew the token instead of a card. And, I really really love borrow. It's so great. Also combos with watchtower next turn and helps with perfect shuffle luck.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2015, 10:29:28 am »
+27

OMG inheritance actually might combo with Scout. Let Scout draw $2 engine components that you start with 3 of, or turn your Estates into Scouts themselves, letting them draw themselves like we always wanted.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 10:30:02 am »
+1

How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2015, 10:30:52 am »
+3

So, Borrow, or the way Donald is talking about it, makes me think that the token will leave your deck when you draw that next card. i.e. you get a 4 card hand 1 time for each use of Borrow. Does this mean that if someone buys a card from the Smithy stack on which I've put my +1 action token for Lost Arts, the token leaves that stack? That would seem to make LA way way worse though. So maybe, especially since nothing says they do, the tokens just always stay there until a card tells you to move them. But in that case, Borrow means you're drawing 4 card hands for the rest of the game, from just one use (of course, I guess after you use it the first time, you can use it every turn after for no penalty). Am I grokking this correctly?

Edit: And re-reading, I can't even get $1 per turn (without something to move my -1 card token somewhere else), just once total ever overall period.
"Once per turn" means you can only buy Borrow once per turn. When you do buy it, you get +1 Buy, and if your -1 Card token isn't on your deck, put it there and get +$1.

When you go to draw cards, if your -1 Card token is on your deck, you remove it in place of one of the draws.

The +1 Action token does not get removed by getting cards from the pile it's on.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2015, 10:31:14 am »
+2

How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?

No, they draw the token away and then just keep going.  So they are actually great counters if you have one from some means other than Borrow.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2015, 10:32:33 am »
0

How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?

Digging cards draw/reveal until something specific happens, rather than drawing/revealing a set number of cards.  They would remove the token, and continue as usual.

What I'm curious about is Doctor; does it only reveal two cards after removing the token?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2015, 10:33:48 am »
+1

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.

How? Borrow only gives you the $+1 once per turn, that doesn't seem enough.

With Borrow and Baker, you're only getting up to $7.
Lost City adds a sixth Copper.

But even in solitaire, we can open $7 now... KC, or even Inheritance. But for 3- turn empty Supply I think the way to go is Stonemason/Inn/Catacombs. I'm not sure it's enough with the draw penalty though...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2015, 10:35:17 am »
+3

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2015, 10:36:21 am »
+7

If I put my "estate token" on scout, I will take lot of scouts in hand when I am playing scout. Yeah ! Ultimate Scout combo !
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2015, 10:37:34 am »
0

What happen when you put estate token on Sir Martin? (And ruins)?
What happen when the pile of knight or ruins run out?


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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2015, 10:37:53 am »
0

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2015, 10:39:15 am »
+2

If I put my "estate token" on Baron...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2015, 10:40:03 am »
+4

If I use Inheritance to set aside a card from a pile with a +1 Action token on it, does the estate get +1 Action? Or more fundamentally, does the additional action come solely from the token or does the token imbue the cards themselves with +1 Action?
No, Lost Arts refers to the pile the cards were from. Estates are from the Estates pile (even your starting ones). The +1 Action is a thing that triggers when playing a card from the pile with the token on it.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2015, 10:40:17 am »
0

I'm guessing that I could take 4 highways (or maybe some bridges) to collect my inheritance of three princely estates? Because that would be a huge move- not only get your estates out of your deck, but get 3 permanent actions as well.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2015, 10:40:58 am »
+1

Without the once per turn clause, possession +borrow is broken
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2015, 10:41:35 am »
+4

How does the -1 Card token work with Venture and Loan? Do they fail to draw their Treasure?
The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards. So Venture for example works normally, and leaves the token on your deck (or, to handle it physically, you take the token off and then put it back, but in game terms it never left).
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2015, 10:42:22 am »
0

Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2015, 10:43:20 am »
0

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2015, 10:43:27 am »
0

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2015, 10:43:46 am »
0

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.

I don't get that from the cards themselves though. Is the difference because it's on my deck rather than a supply pile, or is it because it's the -1 card token rather than the +1 action? Is it just 'something you need to know'?

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PPE2: Hey, the tokens have text? That probably solves everything.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2015, 10:44:38 am »
+1

So are the tokens part of the base setup now, or are they only in use when there is an event that calls for any specific token?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2015, 10:45:11 am »
+2

What happen when you put estate token on Sir Martin? (And ruins)?
What happen when the pile of knight or ruins run out?
You set aside the card with the token. So Inheritance on Sir Martin makes your Estates into Sir Martins and that's that; the other Knights aren't involved. Inheritance on Ruined Market makes your Estates produce +1 Buy, etc.

It doesn't matter what happens to the pile you got the card you Inheritanced. Inheritance works on a card not on a pile, and that card is set aside and in front of you. Which was necessary to handle the Knights and Ruins.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2015, 10:47:51 am »
+1

So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2015, 10:48:54 am »
0

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.

So, if the pile is empty, and we can't set aside the card, we get the benefit anyway?  ???
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2015, 10:49:28 am »
+1

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
Lost Arts does not set aside a card; Inheritance does.

Inheritance doesn't allow Victory cards because they were too automatic. It's also confusing.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2015, 10:50:33 am »
+4

So are the tokens part of the base setup now, or are they only in use when there is an event that calls for any specific token?
The tokens are only used when they're used! I'm not sure what you're thinking of doing with them when nothing uses them.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2015, 10:50:40 am »
+13

So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?

The -1 Card token does not affect Mystic at all. The token stays on your deck regardless of whether you guessed right.

The -1 Card token only affects three things:

- When a card says +X Cards
- When a card uses the word "draw" (except Envoy, which shouldn't use "draw" but does)
- When you draw your new hand at the end of a turn

Everything else skips past the token and the token stays on your deck.

So for instance, let's say your token is on your deck and you play Catacombs.



You still look at 3 cards. If you choose to put them into your hand, then that's the end and the token stays. If you discard them and get +3 Cards, you'd remove the token and draw 2 cards.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:52:44 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2015, 10:51:22 am »
+1

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?
The token works even if the pile is empty, and can be put on an empty pile.

So, if the pile is empty, and we can't set aside the card, we get the benefit anyway?  ???

You set aside cards with estate tokens, not action tokens.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2015, 10:51:38 am »
0

One nice thing about borrow is it can help mitigate opening split luck with a critical $5. I mean, you'd still rather not have to gimp your next turn for that mountebank but it's better than not getting one at all.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2015, 10:52:34 am »
+3

So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?
The token isn't a card so it isn't revealed when revealing cards. Revealing a card doesn't remove the token. Mystic doesn't draw a card, it puts a card into your hand. It's just not affected by the token other than managing it physically.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2015, 10:54:17 am »
+1

Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Very very close to enough, but I don't think you can get the fortress in hand quickly enough. However, I have an idea... let's move this to the empty supply in 3 turns thread.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2015, 10:57:57 am »
0

I am guessing that the +1 action token is no longer effective once the supply pile you put it on its empty (a la band of misfits)? Or is it viable for the rest of the game, regardless?

I suppose it is still effective, as you set aside the card (and also it would prevent that card to be bought and count towards emptying the pile).

That's why it prevents setting aside Victory cards. If not, you could set aside the last Province for $7 if you want to trigger the end of the game.
Lost Arts does not set aside a card; Inheritance does.

Inheritance doesn't allow Victory cards because they were too automatic. It's also confusing.


Sorry, my mistake!!! :)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2015, 10:59:12 am »
0

I observe that Estates Inherit the "abilities and types" of other cards, but not their names or costs. So if my Estates Inherit, say, Ironmongering, then I infer Procession+Estate would gain me a $3, as would Ironmonger + Estate + Horn of Plenty?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2015, 10:59:20 am »
+1

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

You are assuming that there aren't other cards or events which refer to the token.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2015, 11:04:51 am »
+1

The -1 card token goes on your draw pile, and the time you would draw a card, instead you just take the token off your draw pile. So if you would draw 5 cards, you draw 4 and remove the token. The Action token goes on a supply pile and is not affected by people buying cards from that pile.
And in fact the -1 Card token has text on it, you don't just need to consult the rulebook there. It says something like "When you would draw a card, remove this instead."

What about revealing/looking at cards?

The only time you would place that token on your deck is when you buy the event at the end of your turn, then it is removed immediately when you draw your cards for your next hand, so you would never have to reveal cards while the token is on your deck right?

You are assuming that there aren't other cards or events which refer to the token.

And Donald explicitly said minus tokens are used with multiple cards.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2015, 11:05:00 am »
+17

So if I have a -1 Card token on my deck and play a Mystic, it'll reveal that -1 Card token, or the card under it?  If it's the latter, that means it removes the token instead of drawing a correctly guessed card?

The -1 Card token does not affect Mystic at all. The token stays on your deck regardless of whether you guessed right.

The -1 Card token only affects three things:

- When a card says +X Cards
- When a card uses the word "draw" (except Envoy, which shouldn't use "draw" but does)
- When you draw your new hand at the end of a turn

Everything else skips past the token and the token stays on your deck.

So for instance, let's say your token is on your deck and you play Catacombs.



You still look at 3 cards. If you choose to put them into your hand, then that's the end and the token stays. If you discard them and get +3 Cards, you'd remove the token and draw 2 cards.

It now matters which order you put the cards back in for Oracle!!
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2015, 11:11:30 am »
+3

It now matters which order you put the cards back in for Oracle!!
Dude, woah.... Donald is amazing... because if he hadn't made us choose the order every time, I would be very sad when this happened.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2015, 11:13:29 am »
+3

Erm, these feel really convoluted. Just how many distinct tokens are we actually going to be getting with this expansion?

10.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2015, 11:15:17 am »
+4

As awesome as I think the previews have been so far, Inheritance was the first time I actually sat back and just said, "Wow."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2015, 11:20:54 am »
+7

I was at "Shut up and take my money!" at the first preview. Now I'm more at "Continue talking! (And take my money.)"

I can't wait to actually play with this stuff.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2015, 11:22:02 am »
+5

As awesome as I think the previews have been so far, Inheritance was the first time I actually sat back and just said, "Wow."

I love Inheritance so much. Probably my favorite Event, though there's tough competition there. The only thing about it is that you have to remember that your Estates aren't just dead cards. That's an adjustment for sure. When Making Fun implements it, I would love if it did a Band of Misfits-style thing, where it replaced the types and text of your Estates to remind you what they do. That's a tall order, though. And if they wanted to replace the border, some borders would have more than two colors. For instance, inherited Moats would probably be White/Blue/Green.

And yes, if you inherit a Reaction card, your Estates can all use the reaction part. It's pretty sweet.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2015, 11:31:35 am »
0

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2015, 11:32:29 am »
+4

My god, Borrow is UGLY.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2015, 11:33:07 am »
+3

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

"Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply..."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2015, 11:33:37 am »
+1

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:57:21 am by chipperMDW »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2015, 11:34:27 am »
+4

So Province on turn 1 is a thing now. I mean, technically it was as soon as Lost City was revealed, but now it's a thing in 2 player games.
I'm more impressed by Inheritance on turn 1 being a thing.  As in oh look, I drew a copper and 3 Ironmongers on turn 2.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2015, 11:34:34 am »
0

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2015, 11:35:16 am »
0

Erm, these feel really convoluted. Just how many distinct tokens are we actually going to be getting with this expansion?

10.
We have:

+1 coin/action/buy/card
-1 card/coin
Estate token

That means there are 3 more. But Donald said there are only two more? Maybe the last preview today will reveal one of them.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2015, 11:37:00 am »
+4

My god, Borrow is UGLY.

Yeah, Adventures had to outdo Candlestick Maker somewhere, I guess.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2015, 11:39:34 am »
+2

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2015, 11:44:10 am »
+1

Wait actually you could open Inheritance/Watchtower, turn your Estates into Processions, and I think that'd be enough?
Very very close to enough, but I don't think you can get the fortress in hand quickly enough. However, I have an idea... let's move this to the empty supply in 3 turns thread.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8448.msg478811
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2015, 11:45:39 am »
0

The token only affects drawing, with the additional caveat that Envoy is misworded and does not draw those cards.
How about Library?  Is it serious about the word "draw"?  It's a weird kind of drawing that doesn't happen anywhere else, so I always thought of it as more like: "look at a card, maybe put it into your hand, maybe do something else," since that's how everything else does stuff like that.  Like, maybe Library it was released too early to have gotten that wording or something.

But now I'm guessing that, since it does say "draw" and you didn't mention it just now, it's probably really and truly drawing, and it's just weird.

Luckily, I don't think there's any confusion there. The token is not an Action card, so it just gets "drawn", a.k.a. removed, and then you go on with the rest of Library.
Well, if Library is really drawing, then it works like all the other draw-up-to-X cards and effectively counters the token. If it's not (for whatever reason), then it leaves the token alone.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2015, 11:45:58 am »
+8

Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
This seems really, really powerful. Smithy seems perhaps the best, because Double-Lab is so very strong, but really there are lots of cheap actions which this will be very good on. Pawn becomes Village-or-Peddler-or... yeah, that's pretty good. Pearl Diver even becomes Village-with-upside. Any Moat-like card turns into Lab-plus. Terminal silvers are much more meh, but even there, this is ok. Spam Monuments or Swindlers or dare I say Goonseseses? Yes, please, at least if I couldn't otherwise. Really it seems to me like in games with this, very often you will race to accomplish: Setting this, driving the very-undercosted pile you've set it to, maybe trying to contest the pile your opponent has set. +Buy will be big for that pile-drive, especially setting it on a cheap thing, which often I guess you should. And then we're looking at pretty quick 3-piles. It's worse the more expensive the action you want to hit is, but well, it's not bad on expensive things exactly. It seems like usually it will totally shift that game around. I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

Borrow: In a vacuum, this doesn't seem great, since a card is usually better than the money. On the other hand, now is more important than later. Obviously if I am ending the game, the next turn won't matter. If I am getting hit with a discard attack anyway, this is somewhat mitigated, but not entirely - the ability to look a card deeper is a real thing for sure. Against a sure Minion attack, this is pretty free, and against a sure Pillage attack, it's even a benefit. Also, you could just use this to make sure you don't trigger a shuffle at some point, if you've tracked your deck very well. And of course, sometimes that extra $ is really worth it, because e.g. 5 is so much better than 4. So the flexibility on this will make it reasonably powerful, even if on average the effect is really not worth it. Really not a gamebreaker, but quite nice utility.

Inheritance: Hehe, I had the idea of turning victory cards into... I think it was just copper, quite a while back. This is surely a better implementation. 7 is a lot, so this will be somewhat hit-and-miss. I mean, if you can trash the estates away somewhat efficiently, that's got to usually be better. If you can't, though, especially if you can spike this early, it will be pretty nice. It gets three junk out of your deck in one fell swoop, plus gives you an efficiently-costed, points-laden pile of something. All of this assuming, of course, there's a somewhat spammable pile of cheap actions which isn't already empty.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #85 on: April 03, 2015, 11:53:34 am »
+9

Here's why I like borrow so much: It reduces luck. A lot of time in dominion, you get screwed because you hit 4/4 second shuffle on a mountebank board, or 2P on a familiar board, or 7 in the endgame. Borrow softens the blow a ton. It's a lot like coin tokens, except you always have them. It gives you just one more choice every turn of the game, which I think is great. Usually you wont take it, but it is important that you do take it when you need to. I think the choice is especially interesting during the first 4 turns of the game. It's a lot like baker, and I like baker. It's even better though, because its available every single turn, without having to actually buy baker.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:54:49 am by liopoil »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2015, 12:07:43 pm »
+1

Oh, hey. I bet this was brought up yesterday, but Bridge and Highway don't reduce Event costs.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2015, 12:08:38 pm »
+1

Bear in mind that you only have one +1 Action token; you can only have it on one card pile at a time.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2015, 12:38:42 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2015, 12:41:51 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2015, 12:44:44 pm »
+3

So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.

Quote
This is the 9th addition to the game of Dominion. It has 400 cards, 6 mats, and 60 tokens. There are 30 new Kingdom cards, including the return of Duration cards that do things on future turns, plus Reserve cards that can be saved for the right moment. There are also 20 Event cards that give you something to buy besides cards, including tokens that modify cards.

My thought is mainly about that last line -- tokens that modify cards, which are things you can buy via events.  I figured that there would be a common supply of tokens which would modify cards for all players, but the recent reveal that there are player colours makes it even more compelling.

I don't know how Events will be incorporated.  Maybe they will just be things chosen at the start of the game, as you described in the OP.  Maybe there will be specific cards that trigger events. 

Anyway, I figure there will be an event that lets players buy "Progress Tokens" (arbitrary name here).  You put the token on a card in the supply (maybe restricted to action cards, maybe not).  Copies of cards have the bonuses associated with tokens on their supply pile.  I suppose they should only last while the card is still in the supply, but maybe you could keep the effects and trust that people can remember, or you could use the randomizers maybe.

In my original idea, I also figured that the cost of the cards should increase by $1 for each token on them.  But with player colours, it's simpler.  You pay the upfront cost for the token and the benefit is only for you.  If it's only a blue token on the card, only the blue player gets that bonus.

There are 10 tokens for each player.  So what could the effects be?  The vanilla bonuses are 4 obvious ones.  Another obvious one is a token that makes each copy of the card worth 1VP more.  You could also have a simple cost reduction token.  An interesting bonus would be a cost increase, which is only a bonus in combination with TfB (or Border Village).  Maybe a token could add "trash a card" as an effect.  Maybe a token could transform a card into a Reserve card, whatever that means.  A token could make the card untrashable like Fortress.  Or a token could give a card the Moat reaction.  There are many possibilities, though they should be kept simple.

For clarity -- the effects of tokens on a card should be resolved before you resolve the actual card text, for the tokens that give it bonuses on play.  This is just to make it easier to track things (think tokens on KC).

These token shenanigans need not be restricted to event cards.  For example, here's one idea:

[Card idea redacted because Donald doesn't want to see fan cards, man there is a forum for that.  But you can see what my idea was if you click through the link on the quote title!]
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2015, 12:44:59 pm »
0


Inheritance is maybe the strangest thing in Adventures. Your Estates turn into another card. Again that's Estates you already have, and any new ones you buy. You put the token on say a Village; now your Estates are cards that cost $2 and are worth 1 VP and are Action-Victory cards and can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions. It is a great feeling when you're staring at your hand and it sucks and then you remember, oh yeah, these Estates are Villages, this hand is awesome. You actually set aside a card with the token, rather than just putting it on a pile, because Dominion has crazy stuff like the Knights from Dark Ages. Lost Arts can give all of the Knights +1 Action for you, but when your Inheritance is Sir Martins, your Estates are all Sir Martin, they aren't any other Knights. And if that's not clear, there's a lengthy FAQ.


So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

It says they gain the "Type", so it would count as Knights.  But does it also gain the card title?  (You would need that for Treasure Map.)

I would think not - it just says abilities and types.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2015, 12:45:49 pm »
+1

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?

I don't think Treasure Map works, since the Estates don't inherit the name of the card, only the abilities and types (is abilities well-defined? Is "can be trashed by a/nother Treasure Map" an ability of Treasure Map for this purpose? I don't think so). I'd say the one you're trashing from your hand must be an actual Map.

Actually, I don't think "If you trashed two Treasure Maps" is satisfied even by a Map and an Estate, since you only trashed one card with the name "Treasure Map". So maybe it doesn't work at all.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2015, 12:47:14 pm »
+4

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2015, 12:47:41 pm »
+2

So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2015, 12:48:06 pm »
0

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?

Hmm. I think you're right.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2015, 12:49:33 pm »
0

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #97 on: April 03, 2015, 12:52:06 pm »
+3

It's well known that big money has gotten worse and worse as more expansions come out, but now big money feels like it will be absurdly rare in any game with just a couple adventures cards in it. So many engine-in-a-box cards here.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2015, 12:52:31 pm »
+5

So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Correct.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:01 pm »
+3

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:18 pm »
0

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2015, 12:54:06 pm »
0

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2015, 12:54:46 pm »
0

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2015, 12:55:35 pm »
+2

At first glance, positive tokens like the one from Lost Arts sound like they should work well with Messenger.  Put the token on a thing, use Messenger to gain that thing.  Everybody else gets a copy but your copy is better than theirs.

But I guess it wouldn't actually work out so well because you'll be emptying the pile of buffed things you want to buy.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2015, 12:57:51 pm »
+1

Thoughts:

Lost Arts:
I suppose turning Village into Super-Village isn't the hottest sometimes, but even that can be very nice sometimes.

This could really increase the value of Diadem as a prize, couldn't it?  It's more often the forgotten stepchild in games we play that include Tournament.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2015, 12:57:59 pm »
+1

So I am basically 5 for 5 on predictions this week.  I called almost all of this, right when it was revealed that the tokens would come in player colours.
...

Man, there's a thread for tooting your own horn!
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2015, 12:58:47 pm »
+1

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?
Treasure Map does not let you trash Estates.

But an Estate Map can trash a Treasure Map?

Yeah.  It gains the abilities, which is to trash this and a (different) Treasure Map from your hand.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2015, 01:00:39 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #108 on: April 03, 2015, 01:01:48 pm »
0

Man, no WONDER they're revamping the online platform with these crazy things.

Inheritance is blowing my mind.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #109 on: April 03, 2015, 01:02:17 pm »
+3

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Can an Estate Map be trashed from your hand using a Treasure Map or Estate Map?

If you play TMap, you can't trash an Estate from your hand.  If you play your Estate Map, you can trash a TMap from your hand, but you still won't find anything because you did not trash two TMaps.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Any other self-referential instances that will cause problems?

Hmm: Cult Estates can allow you to play Cultists, but not vice versa. You can trash Rat Estates with Rats to replace them with other Rats.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #110 on: April 03, 2015, 01:03:58 pm »
0

Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

Edit: I just saw some mention a reference to player colors. I guess I missed that earlier.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:05:42 pm by Willvon »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2015, 01:05:51 pm »
+1

Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2015, 01:06:18 pm »
+6

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Edit:
Only think of it because of this:


So... wait, it's always worth $4 then, right? That's ridiculously OP for $2, is this meant to be a joke?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:07:53 pm by Gveoniz »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2015, 01:06:29 pm »
0

Are there six sets of tokens in case you play a six-person game?  Does each set have a different color to differentiate them?

There are 60 tokens, presumably 10 tokens in each of 6 different colours.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2015, 01:09:40 pm »
0

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

No. Using inheritance doesn't effect supply piles, so the Estate pile is still simply Estates and so cannot be used by BoM.

Quote
Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

The same as Great Hall etc (+2 cards, +2 actions if at least one revealed card is an Estate, and that player's Estates are improved).
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2015, 01:11:11 pm »
+4

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2015, 01:11:46 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?

Because Fool's gold?

Oh, right, good call.  I was thinking it would work the other way with Fool's Gold and not be giving ubermoney.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2015, 01:12:15 pm »
+2

Wow Inheritance is so crazy, but still looks balanced.

Can I play Band of Misfits as an Estate? If so, with Bridge in the kingdom, is it possible for Estate to turn into Band of Misfited Estates and break MakingFun servers through an infinite loop?

Inheriting Sir Martin can be super strong. It gives you Knights your opponent can not attack with his own Knights. And you can gain 8 copies of it.

Also, how do improved Estates interact with Tribute?

BoM thing probably doesn't work.  Inheritance says your Estates gain the abilities and type, but Estates in the Supply are not yours.  They're just regular Estates.

Sir Estate will still fall if it attacks another Knight.

Suppose you use Inheritance for Village and the other player (in a 2p game) has not used Inheritance.  When you play Tribute and flip up their Estates, they are still just regular VP cards.  If your opponent plays Tribute and flips your Estates, they are Action/Victory and give them the corresponding bonuses.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2015, 01:13:34 pm »
0

Why non-Victory Actions?  Because of potential ambiguity with how many VPs its worth?  Or because the idea is to turn a Victory into an Action-Victory and, well, those are already Action-Victories?

Also, why not allow Treasures?
Inheriting a Victory card is confusing but also too automatic. It's a big VP windfall so of course you do it.

Inheriting treasures was possible for a while. It's wordier and you don't get much extra from being able to do it.

Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:15:07 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2015, 01:14:35 pm »
+3

What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2015, 01:17:44 pm »
+3

So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2015, 01:19:36 pm »
+2

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2015, 01:21:54 pm »
+3

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2015, 01:22:42 pm »
+2

So Estate-as-X is really different from Band of Misfits-as-X.

This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2015, 01:24:00 pm »
+5

What happens when you put your +1 Action token (or other positive token) on Band of Misfits?  BoM sort of transforms as you are playing it, so it will always be something else when played (unless there is no valid target).  I'm guessing you still get the token bonus first because, whatever BoM becomes, it is still from the BoM pile.
Band gives you benefits both from tokens on itself, and tokens on the card you play it as. You play Band as a specific card, which is from a specific pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2015, 01:24:40 pm »
+1

Suppose I have an Inheritance token on Scout. Then, I buy an Estate. When does it become Scout?
Estates in the Supply, obviously, are not mine (otherwise Dominion becomes really easy for me), so they aren't Scout. So they wouldn't be gainable by Stonemason overpay/University.
But when does the card become "mine"? Is it an on-gain effect? Or does it have some sort of precedence, i.e. before all on-gain effects, or after all of them?

What happens if I Ironworks for an Estate?
Does Ironworks gain the Estate, look at it, go "Oh, that's one of my Estates, it's also Scout, so it's an Action. Here, have +1 Action +1 Card."
Or does it go "Oh, I gained an Estate, that's a Victory. It wasn't mine, cause I had to gain it, so it wasn't a Scout yet. So only +1 Card, I guess..."

Feels to me like it should be the first one, since you gain the card, then look at it. So somewhere sneakily in the middle, between gaining and checking, an inheritance lawyer comes and tells the Estate that it should now pretend like it's a Scout, and tell other cards that it is an Action. But is that a new step? Or is a card becoming "mine" an on-gain effect, so we could interrupt it with cards like Watchtower and Trader, and order the stacked on-gain effects that we control?

Edit: Damn, ninja'd
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2015, 01:25:00 pm »
+1

Well I didn't mean all Victories, but allowing all Actions (currently) only allows Nobles, Island, Great Halls.. is that that huge?  Yeah, well, I guess it can double the VP of Estates or turn them into Duchies.  Alright.
Yeah I have had the experience. You will be inheriting some Islands.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2015, 01:26:08 pm »
+6

So, stupid question, let's say I Inherit Death Cart, then buy an Estate. Do I get two Ruins? I was asked this and I said no because the Estate isn't "yours" until after you gain it, so on-gain effects don't trigger (Nomad Camp, Embassy, BV, Noble Brigand, that kind of thing) but I tried to go looking for that ruling and I couldn't find anything definitive. What was that ruling again?
Yes you get the Ruinses. The Estate is "yours" from the moment you buy it; when-buy and when-gain abilities trigger.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2015, 01:27:40 pm »
0

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P

You can only inherit a non-Victory Action card.

Whoops, right.  We were just talking about that.  ::)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2015, 01:27:56 pm »
+2

Ironworks on an inherited Estate will give you the extra bonuses, right?

I play Ironworks, choosing Estate.  It is now my Estate, so now has extra types granted by Inheritance.  I would get +1 Card, +1 Action.

What if my Estates inherited Great Hall?  Inheritance says that it gains the types of the chosen card, so should Estate gain Victory type as well?  Does Estate become Action-Victory-Victory?  And if so, would Ironworks for Estate grant +2 Cards, +1 Action?  I think that it technically should become Action-Victory-Victory, but Ironworks would not grant an extra +1 Card because the Ironworks check just returns "true", not "double true". :P
Ironworks will get you the bonuses for turning Estate into an Action, but never gives double for a bonus. It's either a Victory card or it isn't; if it is you get +1 Card.

Also you can't inherit Great Halls.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2015, 01:29:47 pm »
+6

This all looks really cool, but - considering that not long ago Donald X adamantly insisted that the "who did" should have been left out of Soothsayer for simplicity and accessibility (in the easy-for-regular-folks-to-understand sense) - it seems like Dominion has taken a giant leap away from simplicity and accessibility.
It's all a question of what you get out of your complexity. You want it to count. Those extra words on Soothsayer get you very little. Inheritance existing gets you Inheritance.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2015, 01:31:32 pm »
+2

But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2015, 01:32:11 pm »
+2

So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine, and then all on-gain effects would trigger. So it would be Messenger, and inherit Messenger's text about being the first card bought this turn. So all of my opponents would gain an Estate.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2015, 01:33:17 pm »
+1

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2015, 01:36:16 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.



Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2015, 01:36:48 pm »
+1

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2015, 01:38:22 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2015, 01:40:50 pm »
+2

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

You only have one Estate token, so buying Inheritance a second time would move it from one to another.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2015, 01:41:52 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2015, 01:43:33 pm »
+1

Inheritance question: The card I set aside - do I take it from the supply, from my hand, from my deck..? Must I buy it first?

Just take it from the supply like the event says. You don't buy it separately.

Ah! I thought it just defined the type of action card I could use, specifying supply as opposed to an action card not in the supply - like a ruins or Black Market for example.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2015, 01:44:38 pm »
+3

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
I would think that would be under the lose-track rule; Transmute would lose track of Fortress, so it wouldn't gain anything.

I don't know what the answer to the question is, but I do know that the lose-track rule doesn't play a role in it; nothing is trying to move anything that has already been moved.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2015, 01:45:19 pm »
+1

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2015, 01:47:26 pm »
+2

Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
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Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2015, 01:49:29 pm »
+1

Does an Inherited Border Village force a gain of less than $2 when buying Estates (I would think so, but confirming nonetheless.)?
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Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2015, 01:50:19 pm »
0

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #145 on: April 03, 2015, 01:53:01 pm »
0

Estate-Fortress is actually confusing.  Fortress says "when you trash this", not "when you would trash this".  So it should go to the Trash pile, but at that point it is no longer yours, so Estate-Fortress would not have its Fortress powers anymore.

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Ummm... Suppose I put Estate tokens on Fortress and Feast... I can gain all the $5 cost or less cards in the Supply...

There is only one Estate token, so you could not put tokens on both.  You would only get to set aside a new card, putting your token on that (and losing the previous powers).

Except Inheritance says "Once per game".

Yes, and my question is why that is the case.  That is exactly what I was asking about.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #146 on: April 03, 2015, 01:55:00 pm »
+3

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
I suppose changing Estate-Caravan into Estate-Fishing Village would be too confusing.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #147 on: April 03, 2015, 02:00:20 pm »
+4

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold. If you Inheritance Fortress and trash Estate, it goes back to your hand. In the case of Fortress, it was a Fortress when you trashed it, so the ability triggered. In the case of Transmute, I can see thinking that it's no longer an Action when we check. I don't have the rulebook handy now and am just going by isotropic; Doug tends to ask all these questions too.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #148 on: April 03, 2015, 02:01:42 pm »
+6

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
It was something you would rarely want to do, that caused horrible rules issues.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #149 on: April 03, 2015, 02:03:25 pm »
+5

Assuming a Bridge/Highway in play to set up the initial Inheritance (yes, it still cost $7, but it's target can reduce in price), the following is correct?

"I can't wait to Inherit Hunting Grounds, trash my Estate, and gain 3 more... Hunting Grounds!

That on-gain should work, as the effect happens after you own it (thus changing it's nature), and before it hits the trash (reverting it back to an Estate). Yes?"
When you trash the Estate you can gain 3 Estates, which you can refer to as Hunting Groundses because we all know what you mean even though in fact they are Estates.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #150 on: April 03, 2015, 02:03:59 pm »
+4

Does an Inherited Border Village force a gain of less than $2 when buying Estates (I would think so, but confirming nonetheless.)?
If that's what the Estate costs when you buy it then yes.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #151 on: April 03, 2015, 02:05:52 pm »
0

Inheritance's artwork is a bit similar to Inn (I mean, the landscape, colors). Interesting, thematically.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 02:09:03 pm by brokoli »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #152 on: April 03, 2015, 02:08:47 pm »
+1

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #153 on: April 03, 2015, 02:16:38 pm »
+5

Is there any reason why Inheritance is restricted to once per game?  Too much flexibility once your deck is full of Estates?
Suppose I have Estate token on Caravan. I King's Court an Estate. Then, I buy Inheritance again, and move it to a non-duration card. Rules issues...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #154 on: April 03, 2015, 02:24:01 pm »
+2

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #155 on: April 03, 2015, 02:25:16 pm »
+1

Wait, so Events aren't cards, right? They're Events... which means they aren't affected by Possession's card gaining clause. So you could Borrow while Possessing somebody else's turn, and they'd have to pay it back for their turn. Cool.

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #156 on: April 03, 2015, 02:26:07 pm »
+1

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #157 on: April 03, 2015, 02:29:07 pm »
+2

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

The thing is that you shouldn't be spamming Familiar that much.  I don't think I've ever gotten more than 3.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #158 on: April 03, 2015, 02:43:19 pm »
+1

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

The thing is that you shouldn't be spamming Familiar that much.  I don't think I've ever gotten more than 3.

If there's one key terminal then that's probably the best target but if there are multiples it's not a bad idea to turn a non terminal into a village if there isn't another. And over investing a little in something you'd already want multiples of isn't a bad idea. Of course it's all heavily board dependent.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #159 on: April 03, 2015, 02:46:56 pm »
+1

And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot.

That's almost true, but not quite. You don't necessarily want it on a card that you would be playing a lot anyways, you want it on a card that you will be playing a lot now that it actually has the token on it. Any terminal +3 cards is probably the best target, Smithy and Torturer seem like they would be particularly best because it's easy to gain many copies of the former, and the latter is something that you want to be easily spammable.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #160 on: April 03, 2015, 02:51:26 pm »
+8

Inheritance's artwork is a bit similar to Inn (I mean, the landscape, colors). Interesting, thematically.

Well, yeah, obviously Inn-heritance has to be similar to Inn. It is very innteresting, inndeed.

(not sure if I'm making the joke or explaining it though)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #161 on: April 03, 2015, 02:52:00 pm »
0

Oh, hey. I bet this was brought up yesterday, but Bridge and Highway don't reduce Event costs.

So you mean I can't ever Procession the Borrow I just bought from the Black Market deck into the last Inheritance in the pile to end the game?  ;)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #162 on: April 03, 2015, 02:53:32 pm »
+2

I love everything about Lost Arts. Especially the artwork. And I'm looking forward to putting my Action Token on Attacks. Familiar will make a splendid Village.
I don't think Familiar is a good target for Lost Arts though. Familiar is relatively expensive for that.

I mean, if Familiar is in the Kingdom, I'm probably planning on buying it and spamming it. And I feel like I'd want my Action Token on a card I'll be playing a lot. And I can always move it once the curses run out. And if there are no other Villages, then it still doesn't seem that bad to me. (I also make no claims to give good strategy advice.)

But in general, there are other Attacks you want it on more, for sure. Non-terminal Goons or Mountebank seems like a no-brainer. (Could be nice on Giant, too.)

Some non-Attacks are also intriguing. Bridge and Monument come to mind. And draw-to-X.

Unless your deck needs to play 5 different terminal Actions and Lost Arts is the only village, you almost always want your +1 Action token on something terminal. It's far more common to want to spam one particular terminal (Smithy, Merchant Ship, etc.) and then still have one Action left to play one copy of another (Militia, Moneylender, etc.). Or you can supplement that with some actual villages. This is just way more reliable than adding +1 Action to your villages and cantrips.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2015, 03:27:43 pm »
+1

Wee, i predicted the colored tokens would be put on supply piles to alter the cards from them. Also, Inheritence actually combos with Scout  :o
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #164 on: April 03, 2015, 03:32:47 pm »
0

Yeah, my original post was hasty. In retrospect there are much better options out there, as those who've already played with tokens have pointed out. It will definitely take a couple weeks of playing for me to start to figure out all the strategy that's there. This is going to be a humbling expansion.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2015, 03:37:01 pm »
+1

I King's Court an Estate.

Yeah, with Adventures, you can now say "I King's Court an Estate."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2015, 03:40:21 pm »
0

I King's Court an Estate.

Yeah, with Adventures, you can now say "I King's Court an Estate."

And even more significantly, "Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2015, 03:45:53 pm »
+2

"Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
It's all part of Donald's master plan to make Scout a thing
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #168 on: April 03, 2015, 03:54:38 pm »
0

*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #169 on: April 03, 2015, 03:59:39 pm »
0

*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #170 on: April 03, 2015, 04:02:52 pm »
0

*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #171 on: April 03, 2015, 04:07:56 pm »
+1

*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?

With Borrow, there are probably a few edge cases (buy Farmland, trash Overgrown Estate?). Probably there will be other cards or events that use the –card token at other times.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #172 on: April 03, 2015, 04:08:34 pm »
0

*ish too lazy to read the whole thread* So wait, with Borrow does this mean you get an extra coin in your buy phase in exchange for drawing one fewer card next turn? Or the whole game?
Next time you draw cards.

So it's a one-time thing, right? That's mostly what I was wondering. Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?
If you bought a Rats and used Watchtower to trash it.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #173 on: April 03, 2015, 04:15:06 pm »
0

Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
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jaybeez

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #174 on: April 03, 2015, 04:19:21 pm »
0

Can you Inherit an empty pile?  It doesn't have an "if you do" clause about setting the card aside, but then again, you're not placing the token on the pile, you're placing it on the set-aside card, so I'm guessing you can't.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #175 on: April 03, 2015, 04:25:19 pm »
0

I'd guess no for similar reasons to Workshop not letting you "gain" something from an empty pile (i.e. it doesn't say "Choose a Supply pile. Set aside a card from it.").
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #176 on: April 03, 2015, 04:31:49 pm »
0

It says the Estates gain the traits of "that card", not "that pile" - this was crucial for Knights. So if you don't set aside a card you don't get anything.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #177 on: April 03, 2015, 04:37:57 pm »
0

"Hooray! I drew an Estate!"
It's all part of Donald's master plan to make Scout a thing

So it seems that Inheritance could actually make Scout a really good buy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #178 on: April 03, 2015, 04:39:40 pm »
0

Is there any time when "next time you draw cards" wouldn't be cleanup phase?

Yes! Buy Borrow. Then buy Rats or Cultist (Or Estate with an Inheritance token on Rats or Cultist). Reveal Watchtower to trash the gained card; draw cards. Or buy Catacombs; trashing it with Watchtower, gaining Rats in response; trashing Rats with Watchtower. Similar thing with Hunting Grounds and gaining Estates with Inheritance.

*Edit* Oops, too slow.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 04:42:45 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #179 on: April 03, 2015, 04:43:36 pm »
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Hmmm. Sort of convoluted, not sure I like.  Will buy anyway.  Maybe it'll grown on me.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #180 on: April 03, 2015, 05:19:17 pm »
+3

Borrow's art is ridiculous in a Wand of Gamelon kind of way. Actually, the guy on the right could be a slightly older Duke Onkled.



No?

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.

You take your Mission turn first, like you would with Outpost + Possession, because the effects resolve in player order and you are the current player. (DXV explained this in Previews #4 here.)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #181 on: April 03, 2015, 06:10:30 pm »
+2

I'm in favour of calling Estates by cheap puns once they inherit some ability. Like Fortresstate, Harvestate and Ratstate.

By the way, i guess they will still actually be Estates, right? So Ratstates will be able to trash other Ratstates, and gain real Rats, won't they?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #182 on: April 03, 2015, 06:12:23 pm »
+2

But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
It also stops being yours when you are preventing from getting it due to Possession or Trader.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #183 on: April 03, 2015, 06:21:27 pm »
+6

So to clarify: If I transmute Estate-Scout do I gain Gold+Transmute? I suppose not, because the card is already in the trash when the second part of Transmute is resolved. However when I trash Estate-Fortress, it goes back to my hand, doesn't it?
If you Inheritance Scouts and then Transmute an Estate, it was an Action-Victory card, so you gain a Duchy and a Gold.
The rules for Band of Misfits say when you use Procession on it and play it as, e.g., Fortress, you "gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress)." So there, you don't care about what a thing was at the time it was trashed, but what it is at the time you're evaluating the instruction.

But here, you say you do care about what a thing was when it was trashed.

What's the difference? Do you check costs at the time of evaluation, but types at the time of trashing?
The key difference is how much time I have spent on these questions and what materials I had access to at the time.

I don't see a conversation with Doug about it, so possibly it just randomly ended up that way on isotropic.

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.

When-trashed things however trigger when trashed and so will happen even if the card loses that ability then.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #184 on: April 03, 2015, 06:22:45 pm »
+1

Wait, so Events aren't cards, right? They're Events... which means they aren't affected by Possession's card gaining clause. So you could Borrow while Possessing somebody else's turn, and they'd have to pay it back for their turn. Cool.

Also, if you buy Mission in a turn you played Possession during, does that mean you can order the turns? So you could Possess them, then play your Mission turn, Possess them again and buy another Mission, and it would give you another turn because the previous turn was the opponent's, who was Possessed. Basically, an infinite combo, so long as you can both reliably play Possession and $4.
You don't get to order Mission vs. Possession, because one is your turn and one is someone else's. They happen in turn order (like passing out Curses). Same as for Outpost, which is covered in the Alchemy rulebook.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #185 on: April 03, 2015, 06:25:15 pm »
+1

Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #186 on: April 03, 2015, 06:26:08 pm »
+3

Can you Inherit an empty pile?  It doesn't have an "if you do" clause about setting the card aside, but then again, you're not placing the token on the pile, you're placing it on the set-aside card, so I'm guessing you can't.
You don't Inheritance a pile, you Inheritance a card. If there's no legal card to set aside, you get nothing.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #187 on: April 03, 2015, 06:29:58 pm »
+11

Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #188 on: April 03, 2015, 06:30:10 pm »
0

Aha. Or Cultist, that would work too. So the aim is to start the next turn with four cards, but there are ways of getting around that. And the token moves off the deck as soon as it's used.
Yes; the bit about removing the token is written on the token, which is why you-all wondered about it. I did not have an image of the token to include.

Are the tokens poker chip type things?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #189 on: April 03, 2015, 06:31:27 pm »
0

Looking at the FAQ, you guys haven't asked yet if Estates can be revealed as Young Witch's bane. No, they can't be.

Clearly, because Bain cards are cards "from that pile". But yeah, that will surely be asked eventually.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #190 on: April 03, 2015, 06:32:00 pm »
+1

Are the tokens poker chip type things?
They are cardboard. There are larger rectangular ones with text and smaller circular ones with well some of those have text but not much text, e.g. +1 Action, and some have pictures, e.g. a boot on the Journey token.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #191 on: April 03, 2015, 07:06:04 pm »
+4

So if I was to put an Estate token on Messenger, then buy an Estate, the Estate would become mine

No, this only works if you put the Estate token on Mine.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #192 on: April 03, 2015, 07:29:09 pm »
+3

So if "Your Estates turn into another card" does that mean they literally inherit the card text? So your Sir Martin Estates attack like a Knight, but if you are attacked by a Knight, Sir Martin the Green escapes because he only costs $2?

But if you put your Estate token on Treasure Map, that means you can collide two "Estates" with each other or one with a real Treasure Map and trash both cards just las if they were real?
"Your Estates turn into another card" is a convenient inaccurate shorthand. Your Estates gain the abilities and types of the card. They don't copy anything else, including cost, or name, or "what pile was that from."

So Sir Martin Estates have the types of Sir Martin, and give +2 Buys and attack like he does. They can die to other Knights if they hit one, but other Knights attacking skip over them since they cost $2.

Your Estates gain the abilities of Treasure Map but are Estates rather than Treasure Maps, so they don't find you any treasure.

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?

(Note: I have no idea whether this is just a Fancy Play most of the time, but the idea of Turn 2 Mercenary in contrived circumstances is amusing.)

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #193 on: April 03, 2015, 07:36:52 pm »
+1

"That Cursed Estate in my Possession causes me Confusion."

Oops, just noticed this doesn't work as it specifies Action card. Nevermind.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 09:42:48 pm by Asper »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2015, 07:41:27 pm »
+2

Yeah Pirate Ship Estate is going to be a rules issue no matter what I think. I'm pretty sure that the intent of Pirate Ship is that you get a coin for each token on your Pirate Ship mat no matter what. But then again the card says what it says. Either you have to disobey that part of Pirate Ship's wording, and allow the Estate Ship tokens to count; or you'd have to ignore the Estate Ship's wording about putting the token on the mat. Because once a token is on the mat, there's no tracking where it came from.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #195 on: April 03, 2015, 08:04:09 pm »
+9

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?
"This" means the card, whatever that card is. It works when the card gets Inherited.

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?
Yes.

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
I am tentatively ruling that it counts all of the tokens on the mat. Obv. that's not what it literally says.

Pirate Ship has that wording due to originally having no mat. And then not having the work put into it to have the best possible wording once it had a mat. Trade Route was similar but then it got a better wording that accounted for the mat. That's just some history, it's not really relevant but there it is.
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nemryn

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #196 on: April 03, 2015, 08:19:16 pm »
0

With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #197 on: April 03, 2015, 08:21:00 pm »
0

So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #198 on: April 03, 2015, 08:50:24 pm »
+1

With Lost Arts, "you first get +1 Action" means 'as the first part of the card's effect' and not 'before you play the card', right? I still can't play the card if I've used up all my Actions for the turn.
Yes it's just like the card said +1 Action at the top of its text box, it's resolved at that time.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #199 on: April 03, 2015, 08:51:31 pm »
+5

So if I inherit Baron, and then have a hand with 2 Estates, I can get the +$4 and +1 buy?  Imagine if I had some Talismen to get many Estates and Scout to draw them all!
Your Baron thing works, but Talisman can't gain Victory cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #200 on: April 03, 2015, 09:04:31 pm »
+1

Thanks; that was really useful. I understand there will a FAQ on this, but, in general, I can see where if card text refers to the card name, and it ain't "Estate", then you're all done. Is the use of the word "this" neutral enough for you to play "as if" it were the same card?
"This" means the card, whatever that card is. It works when the card gets Inherited.

So specifically, Urchin's card text reads: When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile.

This leads me to believe that if you put your Estate token on Urchin, you can trash an Estate played as an attack if you play another attack (which could be another Estate played as if it were an Urchin). Is that right?
Yes.

And then there's cases like Pirate Ship, whose text reads: Choose one: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, discards the rest, and if anyone trashed a Treasure you take a Coin token; or, +$1 per Coin token you’ve taken with Pirate Ships this game.

(Emphasis added by me.) In this case, it seems like if you put your Estate token on Pirate ship, that you can take choice 1...but then have to put the Coin token gained some place that's not the Pirate Ship mat since the second choice tells you that only Coin tokens "taken with Pirate Ship" yield money. But by the same token (heh), maybe you can play Estate and take the second option and get money for the tokens on your Pirate Ship mat, if there are any. (Again, no suggestion you would actually want to do that, but...seems possible.
I am tentatively ruling that it counts all of the tokens on the mat. Obv. that's not what it literally says.

Pirate Ship has that wording due to originally having no mat. And then not having the work put into it to have the best possible wording once it had a mat. Trade Route was similar but then it got a better wording that accounted for the mat. That's just some history, it's not really relevant but there it is.

In my opinion, this is the only sensible ruling. Literal wording isn't as important as intention and clarity.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #201 on: April 03, 2015, 10:11:55 pm »
+3

Pirate Ship is kind of a special case because it isn't played according to its wording anyway. I remember my first game with it, we were all confused and asked what the hell a coin token was and someone said you can spend them to make coins and so we started using the Pirate Ship tokens as Guilds coin tokens but still trying to track them for Pirate Ship purposes.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #202 on: April 03, 2015, 10:23:07 pm »
+2

Wow, never realized until just now that Pirate Ship's wording was kind of already broken. "Take a Coin token" on Pirate Ship means something fundamentally different from the exact same phrase on the Guilds cards. Certainly if the Guilds cards had existed when Pirate Ship was made, the Pirate Ship tokens would have been given a different name.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #203 on: April 03, 2015, 10:32:16 pm »
+1

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2015, 10:35:43 pm »
+1

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #205 on: April 03, 2015, 10:37:51 pm »
+8

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #206 on: April 03, 2015, 10:50:23 pm »
+4

Wow, never realized until just now that Pirate Ship's wording was kind of already broken. "Take a Coin token" on Pirate Ship means something fundamentally different from the exact same phrase on the Guilds cards. Certainly if the Guilds cards had existed when Pirate Ship was made, the Pirate Ship tokens would have been given a different name.

We were all over that during the Guilds previews. :))
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #207 on: April 03, 2015, 11:01:48 pm »
+4

But when does the card become "mine"?
It's yours if you started with it, or bought it, or gained it, or were passed it.

It stops being yours if you trash it, or return it, or pass it.

I don't have the rulebook handy so maybe I am missing something. Aha, it's also yours/not due to exchanges.
It also stops being yours when you are preventing from getting it due to Possession or Trader.

So in other words, you can Inherit a Noble Brigand, and then buy an Estate, triggering the on-buy attack of Noble Brigand, and then reveal a Trader and gain a Silver?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #208 on: April 03, 2015, 11:03:29 pm »
+5

So in other words, you can Inherit a Noble Brigand, and then buy an Estate, triggering the on-buy attack of Noble Brigand, and then reveal a Trader and gain a Silver?
Yes, you can do that.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #209 on: April 03, 2015, 11:04:49 pm »
+3

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #210 on: April 03, 2015, 11:28:24 pm »
0

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.
Does this mean cards "Set Aside" with Inheritance also count towards 3-pile? As in, the cards are no longer in the supply? This is getting weird. (I like it.)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #211 on: April 03, 2015, 11:32:53 pm »
+2

Does this mean cards "Set Aside" with Inheritance also count towards 3-pile? As in, the cards are no longer in the supply? This is getting weird. (I like it.)
Using Inheritance removes a (single copy of one) card from the Supply. No-one can buy it / gain it. We need it sitting there set aside so we know what your Estates do. I mean they might be Sir Martin. This is not a confusing thing. When you set aside the card it will be clear that it's no longer in the pile.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #212 on: April 03, 2015, 11:52:05 pm »
+2

Bridge and Inheritance seems like an easy combo to make your Estates a cost

Usually when we think of cost reducer-enablers for something like this we think of Highway, since its easier to e.g. play 3 Highways and then Altar a copper into a Province, or 1 Highway and then set another of your Highways aside with Prince.  Highway's action is convenient in those lineups.

But Inheritance is just something you buy, so a simple Bridge to turn your estates into (say) Hunting Parties will do, and that Bridge will help you gain more "Hunting Estates"

The price of the event itself is fixed, however - seems Highway/Bridge don't make events cheaper:

Event cards give you something to buy; that thing is not a card. There will be a rulebook and it will say stuff just like this.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #213 on: April 04, 2015, 12:01:16 am »
+1

Given Borrow's wording, would I be correct in assuming that if your -1 Card token was already on your deck for some reason, buying Borrow would give you another Buy, but would not give you the $1?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #214 on: April 04, 2015, 12:03:12 am »
+3

Given Borrow's wording, would I be correct in assuming that if your -1 Card token was already on your deck for some reason, buying Borrow would give you another Buy, but would not give you the $1?

Correct. It wouldn't do anything except make Messengers you buy on that turn not have their on-buy effect.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #215 on: April 04, 2015, 12:27:00 am »
+7

Does the set-aside card for Inheritance count as part of your deck for Gardens/Vineyard purposes? I would imagine it does.
Yes.

Now this I wouldn't have guessed. Because you never gained that card; I assumed it wasn't in any way part of your deck.
When you reach the end of a game, and that card is sitting there, it will feel like yours.


Classic writer's answer to an engineer's question.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #216 on: April 04, 2015, 01:19:44 am »
+1

I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #217 on: April 04, 2015, 01:28:14 am »
+3

I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.

It's worse than Urchin because you don't get to pick; it's more like hitting yourself with Minion without the cycling.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #218 on: April 04, 2015, 01:32:17 am »
0

What about Inherited Crossroads? They say "If this is the first time you have played a Crossroads this turn", so I would think that playing an Estate is not the first time you played a Crossroads, and you wouldn't get +3 Actions. But it seems needlessly self referential.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #219 on: April 04, 2015, 01:32:52 am »
0

I suspect that the -1 Card from Borrow will be more painful than it seems at first. Giving your opponent a free Urchin+ isn't the end of the world, but it's probably not something you want to make a habit of doing either.

It's worse than Urchin because you don't get to pick; it's more like hitting yourself with Minion without the cycling.
And that's why it's Urchin+: it's plus for your opponent and minus for you.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #220 on: April 04, 2015, 02:02:07 am »
0

What about Inherited Crossroads? They say "If this is the first time you have played a Crossroads this turn", so I would think that playing an Estate is not the first time you played a Crossroads, and you wouldn't get +3 Actions. But it seems needlessly self referential.

Inherited Crossroads does not give you +actions.
 
So, one can't get +3 action with Estate Crossroad because playing an estate is not "your first time you play a crossroad"?
Correct.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #221 on: April 04, 2015, 02:40:21 am »
0

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #222 on: April 04, 2015, 04:09:28 am »
+1

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.

Borrow actually counters Minion strategies a bit, that's cool.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #223 on: April 04, 2015, 06:01:14 am »
+2

Am I right in thinking that Lost Arts + Duration cards only add the +Action to the turn it is played? So Caravan becomes a village first turn - but still stays at +1 Card on the second turn?

Also,  recently played a fun game of Grand Market + Quarry. I'm trying to imagine Inheritance+GM+Q, but the image is blurry due to my eyes being full of $$$$$ signs.
Q+2Golds = Defines the Grand Estate.
Every Grand Estate played afterwards nets me another one...
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #224 on: April 04, 2015, 07:05:20 am »
+1

Am I right in thinking that Lost Arts + Duration cards only add the +Action to the turn it is played? So Caravan becomes a village first turn - but still stays at +1 Card on the second turn?

Yes, you only "play" the card the first time, although it remains "in play".  (Compare Peddler and Conspirator.)
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #225 on: April 04, 2015, 09:16:49 am »
+2

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #226 on: April 04, 2015, 09:19:14 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #227 on: April 04, 2015, 09:21:27 am »
0

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #228 on: April 04, 2015, 09:22:55 am »
+3

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #229 on: April 04, 2015, 09:23:32 am »
+3

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #230 on: April 04, 2015, 09:25:14 am »
+1

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #231 on: April 04, 2015, 09:25:53 am »
0

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Wouldn't salvage come before quarry anyway?  Also first post.

Not with Black Market, or the new card Storyteller.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #232 on: April 04, 2015, 09:27:52 am »
+1

Not read through everything, but quick thoughts:

Inheritance/Baron seems crazy good.  Baron helps spike $7 early, and then Baron turns into: "+1 buy, choose one: discard action card X and +$4, or gain action card X", which seems really nice.


I'm not so sure... if you have 2 Estate/Barons in your hand, then you get +$4 and a buy... those could have been Silver and Woodcutter for the same effect. And you don't want to be gaining more and more Estate/Barons because they're terminal.
Baron would combo well with Inheritance but not by using Inheritance on Baron itself.  Inheritance/Nonterminal + Baron would be good I think.

Yes. Baron will make it much easier to hit that $7 quicker.Quite possibly on turn 3-4 with a little luck.

And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #233 on: April 04, 2015, 09:30:48 am »
0

Ah well, what Inheritance does is very similar to increasing the value of a specific cheap action card by making it cost $2 and giving a VP. I don't think you would want to have a deck full of Barons, even if they all were worth 1 VP and costed only $2. Sure, Baron-Estate (i got no pun to use here) can gain copies of itself, but it's still a terminal action. In a similar way, you wouldn't want to make Scouts of your Estates. That doesn't mean that a deck full of Highwaystates doesn't have use for a Scout or Baron, i think.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #234 on: April 04, 2015, 09:33:57 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #235 on: April 04, 2015, 09:37:33 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

Well I didn't know if you had seen that post; it's also worth noting that Donald +1'd it, which does pretty much mean that it's correct. But yes, I agree that the card wording by itself is confusing. But if the "once per turn" were not meant to stop you from purchasing it only once; then there would be no need to have it there at all... the "if" clause would already prevent it anyway. The only thing "once per turn" does is stops you from buying an unlimited number of this event. Which could matter if there were ever a card similar to Goons that gives you something when you buy an event.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #236 on: April 04, 2015, 09:39:57 am »
0

The card doesn't read like you can buy it once per turn; it reads like wero is suggesting. The "once per turn" precedes the moving-token-getting-money clause. It doesn't say anything about only being able to buy it once per turn (though why would you want to, really).

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12906.msg478752#msg478752. All events that start with "once per turn:" are saying that you can only buy that event once per turn; and are not related to the effect of the card. However, looking again, I do find Borrow to be a little confusing, because the "+1 Buy" is written BEFORE the "once per turn" part.

Linking to your own post doesn't convince anyone who was questioning you of anything at all. Moreover, it's not that I am actually claiming you are wrong per se, more that that is not how the card reads by itself.

I'm on the side of: Buy it as much as you want, but the effect only happens once.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #237 on: April 04, 2015, 09:47:00 am »
0

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #238 on: April 04, 2015, 09:50:00 am »
+1

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #239 on: April 04, 2015, 09:58:01 am »
0

Basically Inheritance turns your Estate into a $2 Estate that gains the abilities and types of the card you set aside. It doesn't work with Crossroads because you still played an Estate, not a Crossroads, as mentioned above. Few other examples/interactions relating to other cards, some have which been discussed above (correct me if I am wrong):

Swindler: If the Inherited card gets Swindled, it gets turned into another $2 card, either Estate (which still becomes Inherited card) or other $2.
Treasure Map: Doesn't work, your Estate is not a "copy of Treasure Map" as Donald already mentioned.
Potion-cost cards: Can't use it on these, just like you can't use Workshop or Ironworks to gain them.
Baron: Mentioned above, Still works, since you are still discarding an Estate.
Young Witch: Can't reveal the Estate as a Bane, as the Bane card is never an Estate.
Squire: Does work, you can trash your Inherited Squires to become attack cards, as card text says "when you trash this".
Sage: does not combo with Inherited cards, since the Estate still costs $2, and will pass over them.

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #240 on: April 04, 2015, 10:07:27 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work on a technical standpoint, but I'm sure it's wrong anyways.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:09:00 am by Seprix »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #241 on: April 04, 2015, 10:08:53 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #242 on: April 04, 2015, 10:10:19 am »
0

Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #243 on: April 04, 2015, 10:12:48 am »
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Wow, the wording was more specific than I remember. Yeah, easy call there.

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #244 on: April 04, 2015, 10:22:30 am »
0

Uh, estates play like they are the card without ever taking on the card's nameship. If you played Estate as Treasure Map and then trashed Treasure Map from the hand, I think that would work.

You could play Estate as Treasure Map and then trash a (real) Treasure Map from your hand, but you will not get any Gold because you did not "trash 2 Treasure Maps."

Play Estate Treasure Map.
Trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand.
Add four bags of dirt to your deck.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #245 on: April 04, 2015, 10:23:21 am »
+1

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #246 on: April 04, 2015, 10:35:13 am »
+3

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #247 on: April 04, 2015, 10:47:03 am »
0

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy. Envoy's power is greatly reduced if you play it with your last action, and more so than Smithy. Assuming that for both cards this was considered when balancing them, Envoy gains more from becoming nonterminal than Smithy, and so should be a superior target.

Edit: That's assuming that without Lost Arts on the board they are equally strong on avarage, which i'm pretty sure isn't the case. I can only argue from a theoretical design position, though, as i'm not good enough a player to compare Envoy to Smithy in general. Anyhow, however Envoy's basic strength compares to Smithy, it gains more from the +1 Action in my opinion.

Edit 2: Assuming Envoy gets more from this than Smithy, you can think about whether other, more expansive drawers are better. Torturer is harsher when you chain them, Cultist can act fairly nonterminal anyhow. I personally thought of Inheritance and limited myself to cards costing $4 or less. Either way, they ARE easier to get, which is a huge plus.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:58:10 am by Asper »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #248 on: April 04, 2015, 10:49:19 am »
+1

Don't discredit yourself; your logic is perfectly sound.  I agree terminal draw is generally the best target, but terminal payoff cards like merchant guild are great too.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #249 on: April 04, 2015, 10:50:34 am »
+2

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #250 on: April 04, 2015, 10:54:36 am »
0

I think Lost Arts is best fit for strong drawers. Provided you have no cost reduction, this would mean either Smithy or Envoy.

I'm not sure exactly how you meant this, but Lost Arts works on any action card regardless of cost.

Yup, i thought of inheritance when i wrote that. Ever since that card was previewed it has been drawing all my Dominion-related thoughts on it. i guess Margrave, hunting Grounds, Tortures etc also fit. Hm... Nonterminal Torturers sound nasty, too. They are more expensive, though.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #251 on: April 04, 2015, 10:57:41 am »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

I mentioned that earlier, with the caveat that it probably isn't so rosy because

1. That drains the pile of my cheap personal power cards.
2. The other players could buy Inheritance themselves.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #252 on: April 04, 2015, 10:57:49 am »
+1

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

So I can now tell the interesting story I had about Hireling... I once put my +1 Action Token on Hireling. Yup. Even though it's a one-shot in terms of how often you play the card. I did it so that I could play multiple on the same turn; then moved my Action Token somewhere else.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #253 on: April 04, 2015, 11:06:32 am »
0

Who's the jerk that wants to put +1 Action on Possession?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #254 on: April 04, 2015, 11:09:05 am »
+1

Let's say that Transmute is referring to the state of the card at the moment it checks (like Procession); thus it will no longer be your Estate with all that means.
Does this apply to all "Trash for X" cards? For example with a Quarry in play your inherited Scouts are worth 0, so if they get swindled, you may end up with a Curse. And if you Salvage them, you get +0$.
Actually, according to what Donald said last, it should mean the reverse.  If the Estate is no longer yours when Swindler checks its cost, it's no longer an action card, so it just a regular $2 Estate again, and Swindler's giving you a $2... maybe another Estate that turns into a $0 Estate-Scout once it's back in your possession.

And Salvager would give +$2 even though the card was a $0 when you trashed it.

Note also that his latest response means, with regards to your earlier question, your initial guess was correct: if you Transmute an Estate-Scout, it's not yours anymore when Transmute checks it, so it's just a victory card and you only get a Gold, not the Duchy+Gold he initially told you.


Personally, I've always hated the rule that said Procession was supposed to follow its trashed cards around who-knows-where to see whether or not they had turned back into Band of Misfits. (Like some kind of "Keep Track At All Costs" rule.) Looks like Inheritance will bring that rule into play a lot more often, and many trashers will now have to follow their cards around to see whether they've changed types or, with Quarry, costs.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:19:20 am by chipperMDW »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #255 on: April 04, 2015, 11:14:01 am »
0

Crossroads works well with it as it can draw you more cards for every Estate you have.  It just would be silly to make Estates Crossroads.

I'm not sure it would. I mean, if you can then get lots of estates, you're looking at a bunch of cards that are "1 VP, +2-4 (or more) cards". Not the greatest thing ever, but not ridiculous.

…What Shmeur said is that you wouldn't make your Estates inherit Crossroads. So, you know, if Estates are $2 Ironmongers for you or whatever, you might buy up a whole bunch of Estates and then use Crossroads for extra draw.

Sure, if Ironmonger is available. But sometimes you won't have a card like that.

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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #256 on: April 04, 2015, 11:19:55 am »
0

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.
No, that just fell out of trying to make it clear what Treasure Map did.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #257 on: April 04, 2015, 11:32:51 am »
0

Yeah, it was done that way pretty much to prevent any form of Throne-Room + Treasure Map ever working.

It's the "another copy of Treasure Map from your hand" part that stops Throne Room + Treasure Map from working.

"If you do trash two Treasure Maps" could have been shortened to "If you did" and it would have changed nothing pre-Adventures.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:34:34 am by Rubby »
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #258 on: April 04, 2015, 12:22:19 pm »
+1


Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.


I have to admit, the very first card that came to mind to me was Wharf. Then I realized you wouldn't get the +Action next turn as well, so it wouldn't be like the very best card ever...but still. A chainable Wharf that never draws dead would be pretty impressive. Then, on a similar theme, Library. Run your engine down, play Library, and reload.

A second class of cards that can I think really use the +Action are cards like Storeroom and Vault. Storeroom has always needed more support than is sometimes convenient, but +Action helps a lot.

There are also some attacks that are just begging to be chained, like Rabble, Witch, Goons, and even Ambassador. Also very impressive would be a self-sustaining Masquerade chain.

Finally, there are some trashers that I think (surprisingly at first, maybe) get much better. Develop, when you are using it to gain cards you really want, is improved a lot by getting an action so your following cantrip finds something nice. I still kind of suck at this game, but one problem I not infrequently have is terminal collisions with Remake and some other terminal, often an attack. Lost Arts could help me with this personal problem of mine.

So terminal draw is an obvious target, but I think there are lots of situations where Lost Arts could be amazing.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #259 on: April 04, 2015, 12:32:28 pm »
+3

Wharf's Duration status definitely holds back its compatibility with Lost Arts, since even in the best-case scenario you're only playing each Wharf every two turns rather than every turn. So as terrifyingly powerful as Lost Arts Wharf surely is, Wharf probably doesn't improve as much from Lost Arts as other cards, even ones that will still be weaker with Lost Arts included.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #260 on: April 04, 2015, 12:38:03 pm »
+3

One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #261 on: April 04, 2015, 12:53:49 pm »
+2

Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #262 on: April 04, 2015, 12:58:33 pm »
+7

Sorry, if this has been asked and/or answered yet:
Will the inheritated Estates be the type Victory-Action for ever, so that they count for Vineyard at the end of the game?
They are Victory-Action cards for the rest of the game, so yes they count for Vineyard.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #263 on: April 04, 2015, 01:24:10 pm »
0

One way to think of it is: half of Wharf's draw is already non-terminal.

Excellent point. This does seem like gilding the lily, when you put it that way.

And thinking a bit more about cost, you are spending $6 to make whatever it is better, so having that thing be cheaper helps. And having it be something you want to play a lot helps. So now I'm definitely fascinated by Masquerade.

Which brings me to Oracle, which suddenly becomes an Oracular Laboratory that scries even deeper than Scrying Pool.

And then to Steward, which now gets to choose whether it's a Laboratory, a non-terminal Silver, or a non-terminal trasher. Holy cow; you could build an entire strategy around that.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #264 on: April 04, 2015, 01:30:17 pm »
+2

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on?
My vote goes to Bridge !
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #265 on: April 04, 2015, 02:09:48 pm »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #266 on: April 04, 2015, 02:22:35 pm »
0

Inheritance could make Messenger-ing estates really nice.

Any ideas about the best card to play Lost Arts on? My current vote goes to Envoy.
And the worst card? probably Prince? Although that's not nearly as interesting as the best.

Borrow is one of my favorite events (there's two I can't really choose between). More tactical decisions almost every turn, bye bye heart breaking streaks of $7 hands in the endgame.

Lost Arts + Goons on villageless Goons boards is a game-changer. But I guess that's not different from saying that village on a villageless Goons board is a game-changer.

I don't think that sounds very good. You need to draw those Goons somehow anyway, and on a villageless board, I'd think I'd usually prefer Lost Artsing the draw. Lost Artsing terminal draw and drawing your deck and playing a single Goons every turn sounds a lot better than playing Goons/BM with non-terminal Goons and hoping that they collide sometimes. And in a Lab engine, Lost Artsing the Labs probably allows you to play all of your Goons anyway and gives you more flexibility.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #267 on: April 04, 2015, 03:39:00 pm »
+3

Lost arts would be incredibly good on minion with a couple helpful terminals.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #268 on: April 04, 2015, 04:17:23 pm »
+3

In a heavy Cultist game with no Trashing, Lost Arts on Ruins could possibly be the right choice.
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Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance
« Reply #269 on: April 04, 2015, 04:23:35 pm »
+1