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Author Topic: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission  (Read 79645 times)

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JW

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2015, 03:41:27 pm »
0

Opening Steward/Mission, then hoping to trash 2 cards on "turn 2b" doesn't sound silly to me at all.
Not saying this is incredibly good, because maybe just buying a $4 on turn 2 is better, but certainly worth considering.

That sounds worse than buying another Steward if there are no other events you might buy on your Mission turn. In that case, there's a 5/11 chance that you draw the Steward and a 6/11 chance that you used your buy only to increase cycling wasted your buy.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 04:16:24 pm by JW »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2015, 04:03:02 pm »
+1

Opening Steward/Mission, then hoping to trash 2 cards on "turn 2b" doesn't sound silly to me at all.
Not saying this is incredibly good, because maybe just buying a $4 on turn 2 is better, but certainly worth considering.

That sounds worse than buying another Steward if there are no other events you might buy on your Mission turn. In that case, there's a 5/11 chance that you draw the Steward and a 6/11 chance that you wasted your buy.

Not really? In the 6/11 chance, you are still cycling to your Steward faster.

JW

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2015, 04:14:58 pm »
0

That sounds worse than buying another Steward if there are no other events you might buy on your Mission turn. In that case, there's a 5/11 chance that you draw the Steward and a 6/11 chance that you wasted your buy.

Not really? In the 6/11 chance, you are still cycling to your Steward faster.

That's true. At the end of turn 3, the chance that you'll have played Steward if you open Steward-Mission (thus getting turn 2b) is 10/11= 90.9%.

If you open double Steward, at the end of turn 3 the chance that you’ll have played Steward is 68.2% (thank you Excel, for having the hypergeometric distribution). But you have two Stewards in your deck, which seems like a notable advantage on most of the boards when you would consider buying Mission just to increase your chance to trash with the first Steward.
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swedenman

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2015, 04:44:48 pm »
0

I wonder how the selection of Events will be implemented online.  I mean, will the total number of Events in the game be fully random, or will it have a default limit?

They don't follow the Potion-cost card suggestion, so they'll probably just do totally random for Events. My guess would be something like 10% chance for each Event being used in any given game. (Because, theoretically, that comes out to 2 per game on average.)

I sincerely hope this isn't the case. Events look cool, but I don't want them suddenly to be in every single game. I imagine the Potion-cost card suggestion has been ignored because it disregards the proportion of Alchemy cards in the randomizer deck and would make Alchemy WAY over-represented in the majority of games. However, Donald's suggestion of putting Events into the randomizer deck and just using the ones that come up up to a maximum of 2 is a great way to have Events be represented based on the proportion of Adventures cards in the randomizer deck. If Events are selected independently of the kingdom then they would be way over-represented.
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jonts26

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2015, 05:10:20 pm »
+6

I wonder how the selection of Events will be implemented online.  I mean, will the total number of Events in the game be fully random, or will it have a default limit?

I assume in "full random" it will be: add events randomly along with kingdom cards until there are 10 Kingdom cards, perhaps to a maximum of 2 events. A max of 2 events won't matter much for someone who owns all of the sets, but someone who owned just base and Adventures would be playing with an average of more than 3 events if there was no cap.

Using negative binomial approximation (Excel has no built in negative hypergeometric distribution? Appalling!), and the above method, the chance of more than 2 events (with 235 kingdom cards and 20 events) is only 6.2%.

I should have actually used negative hyper geometric instead of a naive binomial in my last post. Real probabilities are (for all cards):

0 events: 43.5%
1 event: 35.5%
2+ events: 21.0%
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 05:15:34 pm by jonts26 »
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2015, 05:15:45 pm »
+2

They don't follow the Potion-cost card suggestion, so they'll probably just do totally random for Events. My guess would be something like 10% chance for each Event being used in any given game. (Because, theoretically, that comes out to 2 per game on average.)
It's worth remembering that the Potion-cost card suggestion was only added for players who felt Alchemy cards weren't worth it when there was only 1 in the kingdom.  This got added to make those players feel better about Alchemy.  But it is not actually a good idea, and never was.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2015, 06:14:43 pm »
+7

First of all, wow.

Second, wow.


Thirdly, wow.

Awesome.
Like, really awesome mechanic.

Okay, the cards:
Expedition:
I can't even... Uh, hmm. Turn 3, mediocre hand, make sure stuff doesn't miss shuffle? Probably early you would rather be buying stuff, but maybe you do it if there is some trasher you want to get to a lot... Hmm, usually you probably prefer a second copy first. Maybe with Chapel. Anyway, you are mostly using it later. Maybe you can build an engine out of all this, but it seems like a pain - that is a lot of money and buys. So mostly you're... using it in a Big Money deck, as it's a lot better than silver on those late buys on dud hands? And of course just anywhere you have the spare money and buy, it won't be bad. Probably not enough to build a deck/strategy around, but a nice role-player. Interesting, difficult decisions.

TradeKevin:
This would be totally broken at 3. Most likely just too strong at 4. I feel like it's going to be pretty weak at 5. I mean, the issue is, you have to have the cards in your hand. Maybe it is good for terminal-draw BM? Yes, probably - turning 2 estates into silvers is going to be better than gold pretty much every time. An estate and a copper into silvers has to be as well. Two coppers? Well, now you need to have $7 (you need to hold the coppers back), which is asking a lot. Better than gold in a BM deck.... mmm, probably not. How about in engines? Sure, if you can't otherwise trash, or if you have cards that have outlived their usefulness (trashers say), turning them into silvers is a pretty sleek way to upgrade (not the card necessarily) your economy. So I guess this is reasonably solid anyway. Another role player, probably better for Big Money than engines, because in engines you'll so often want a 5-cost instead. Yeah.

Mission:
This one has, I think, the most potential of any card we've seen so far in the set to be broken. It probably isn't though, at least normally. Attacks that stack, this is brutal. If you just want to trash on your next turn anyway, here's your guy. And of course, it's going to be bonkers in engines which gain rather than buy - we're looking at you Horn Of Plenty. Still, I think the strongest thing will be with Ambassador, where you just need to spam this to try to win the war, yeah? I guess on your 'average' board, it hardly does anything - I guess you can skip a hand you know is going to be bad if there's no combo, but that hardly seems good. Normally weak, but lots of opportunities to be really really strong.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2015, 06:31:24 pm »
0

First of all, these events are amazing.

This expansion adds so much strategy depth its crazy. Events really seems to take strategy to the next level. Plus, we have Reserves which make us think when we should use a card and not use it and missing the shuffle and all that.

With that said, I am not sure how any of these play out. I think Event cards will truly be board dependent. With that said. These all seem to have strong abilities. I can't wait to play with them.
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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2015, 06:35:30 pm »
+1

expedition turn 1, trade turn 2 looks pretty sweet to me in most engines.
Sure it takes 2 turns, but with 7 coppers, 2 silvers and one estate you can probably buy $5+ cards all game long.

And yes, wow :)
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2015, 07:00:34 pm »
+3

If I wasn't already for sure pre-ordering this, I am now. Super excited to see the remaining 17 cards... and due to the immediate effect I am hoping there is one that can let us empty the supply in 3 turns :)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2015, 07:04:02 pm »
0

expedition turn 1, trade turn 2 looks pretty sweet to me in most engines.
Sure it takes 2 turns, but with 7 coppers, 2 silvers and one estate you can probably buy $5+ cards all game long.

And yes, wow :)


If you have 3/4, this is probably a good risk (assuming both are on board, which seems rare, but hey, will come up). You have a 10% chance of whiffing entirely, which puts you in quite rough shape. 30% you get only one copper and an estate into silvers, which is probably still good, if not great. And 60% you get to turn two estates into silvers, at which point you should be very ahead.

If you have 4/3, this is not a good risk. 30% chance you get the dream, 70% chance you open -/4-cost (or I guess you expedition again maybe, but I think you are still not in good shape there).

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2015, 07:23:39 pm »
0

Do the events use up one of your buys?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2015, 07:24:12 pm »
+2

Do the events use up one of your buys?

Yes.
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joel88s

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2015, 08:06:43 pm »
0

First of all, wow.

Second, wow.


Thirdly, wow.

Three wows from WW - that's saying something.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2015, 08:09:57 pm »
+2

i just got a +1 from donald
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eHalcyon

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2015, 08:12:13 pm »
+3

First of all, wow.

Second, wow.


Thirdly, wow.

Three wows from WW - that's saying something.

I think that's saying "wow".
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7string

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #116 on: April 02, 2015, 08:31:28 pm »
0

It's funny...yesterday I was thinking that the art on the new Adventures cards is sooo much better that it is a shame the images could not be larger and take up more of the card.  Then presto...we have events that are mostly images.  Love it!

I'm assuming that the +2 cards from the Expedition event happens during your clean-up and draw for next turn phase - right?  So your next 7 card hand would still be vulnerable to hand-size attacks like Militia, Margrave, Mercenary, etc...  Just trying to confirm that it is not like a Wharf duration, and that with an Event you get the extra cards at the end of your current turn, and NOT the start of the next turn.  I'm hoping all the events activate during your current turn...otherwise tracking outstanding events could be tricky since you don't have your own cards for the events on the table like with durations.  But then I don't know what the tokens are for yet...

Incredibly creative expansion!!  All the experienced players will love it.  I'm still trying to introduce Hinterlands to those I game with IRL, and have not yet introduced Dark Ages, Guilds, or Alchemy to them.  I'm just wondering if this will be too much for occasional players who sometimes complain that I am always introducing cards they are not familiar with...we'll see...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #117 on: April 02, 2015, 08:49:12 pm »
0

I'm hoping all the events activate during your current turn...otherwise tracking outstanding events could be tricky since you don't have your own cards for the events on the table like with durations.  But then I don't know what the tokens are for yet...

Yeah I was thinking this might be what tokens were for, but seems not. Something interesting you could do would be to buy an Event by putting a token on it, and then you can do the Event at any relevant time by removing the token. Kind of like a Reserve Event.
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joel88s

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2015, 08:52:12 pm »
+2

Hey just occurs to me... since these event cards don't move once they are chosen for the game, wouldn't they lend themselves to some coolly-designed little vertical stand or board to slot them into? They'd be on ready display for everyone at the table to glance over at, like the chalkboard specials at a bistro. Could be fun and stylish as well as functional!
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7string

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #119 on: April 02, 2015, 08:57:32 pm »
0

I'm hoping all the events activate during your current turn...otherwise tracking outstanding events could be tricky since you don't have your own cards for the events on the table like with durations.  But then I don't know what the tokens are for yet...

Yeah I was thinking this might be what tokens were for, but seems not. Something interesting you could do would be to buy an Event by putting a token on it, and then you can do the Event at any relevant time by removing the token. Kind of like a Reserve Event.

Yup...that is exactly what I was wondering as well.  I was just trying to figure out how the physical mechanics would work during a game on a table with 3-4 people and hoping it is simple.  The friends and family I have introduced to Seaside adapted to the duration cards surprisingly quickly because the duration cards are always there on the table in the top row to physically remind them of future actions.  But with Hinterlands, it has been an ongoing saga of forgotten actions like top-decking Nomads or after using Scheme...and especially forgetting to shuffle in discard actions after gaining an Inn - even I forget to do that when moving too quickly. 
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ghostofmars

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #120 on: April 02, 2015, 10:09:35 pm »
0

Possession has a funny interaction with Mission.

If I play Possession in my turn and buy a Mission, I get two extra turns. I decide to do Possession first, then my Mission extra turn. Because you took a possessed turn between my turns, I may buy another Mission on my Mission turn.

So all I need is a engine that draws my deck and generates 4$, then I can possess/Mission until you resign (or the random number generator collapses my engine).
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #121 on: April 02, 2015, 10:27:49 pm »
+5

Possession has a funny interaction with Mission.

If I play Possession in my turn and buy a Mission, I get two extra turns. I decide to do Possession first, then my Mission extra turn. Because you took a possessed turn between my turns, I may buy another Mission on my Mission turn.

So all I need is a engine that draws my deck and generates 4$, then I can possess/Mission until you resign (or the random number generator collapses my engine).
You can't decide to do Possession first. When two things happen to different players at the same time, you go in turn order; the Mission turn will happen ahead of the Possession turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #122 on: April 02, 2015, 11:12:29 pm »
0

Wait a minute, how does Expedition work with Outpost (if you play/buy both on the same turn)? My guess is that you will draw 5 cards (3 because of Outpost, then an extra 2 from Expedition). But it could also be that Outpost tells you specifically to draw 3 cards, so that's what you would have to draw. Outpost doesn't say 2 fewer cards, it says 3 cards.
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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #123 on: April 02, 2015, 11:21:55 pm »
+1

Wait a minute, how does Expedition work with Outpost (if you play/buy both on the same turn)? My guess is that you will draw 5 cards (3 because of Outpost, then an extra 2 from Expedition). But it could also be that Outpost tells you specifically to draw 3 cards, so that's what you would have to draw. Outpost doesn't say 2 fewer cards, it says 3 cards.

Outpost says "...only draw 3 cards (instead of 5)..." while Expedition says "Draw 2 extra cards..."

I would interpret that as Outpost draws 3, and then Expedition draws 2 more.
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Re: Previews #4 - Expedition, Trade, Mission
« Reply #124 on: April 02, 2015, 11:54:05 pm »
+4

Wait a minute, how does Expedition work with Outpost (if you play/buy both on the same turn)? My guess is that you will draw 5 cards (3 because of Outpost, then an extra 2 from Expedition). But it could also be that Outpost tells you specifically to draw 3 cards, so that's what you would have to draw. Outpost doesn't say 2 fewer cards, it says 3 cards.
You'll get 5 cards. There will be a rulebook, it will cover most of these important questions.
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