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Author Topic: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons  (Read 4077 times)

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werothegreat

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Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« on: April 01, 2015, 01:03:48 pm »
0

With Goons, every time you buy something, you get +1 VP.

With Swamp Hag, every time an opponent buys something, they get -1 VP and a junk card.

Without trashing, SH effectively neutralizes any point gain Goons would get, and fills their deck with junk, especially since a Goons player wants to buy more than one thing.  Having more than one Goons in play can counteract this, but you can also have more than one SH in play.  Once all the Curses are gone, this goes away, but if the Goons player has all the Curses, they're not going to be buying much.

Wish I could actually test this out.  :/
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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 01:09:13 pm »
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Which one are you saying counters which?

werothegreat

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2015, 01:10:14 pm »
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Which one are you saying counters which?

I'm saying SH counters Goons, but Goons could help mitigate the point less from SH.  However, Goons doesn't help you get rid of the Curses you get.
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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 01:10:34 pm »
+3

You have to be mindful of the Curse pile when doing this.  If the Goons player is in the lead and can empty Curses for a 3 pile with however many buys he has, you've dug your own grave by playing Swamp Hag.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2015, 01:49:24 pm »
+1

Does this have a more significant effect than other cursers?  If the Goons engine isn't strong enough to deal with the curses (no trashing?) then Witch works just as well or better does it not? If this is the case, surely the Goons player is going to be playing Swamp Hag too?

If there is trashing, then perhaps it is dangerous to use a ton of buys in one turn, but that isn't all that common in Goons games until the game is ending, or nearly ending anyway (buying Coppers), and the Curses are likely low or out already if Swamp Hag is a factor at that point.

werothegreat

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2015, 01:59:39 pm »
+1

Does this have a more significant effect than other cursers?  If the Goons engine isn't strong enough to deal with the curses (no trashing?) then Witch works just as well or better does it not? If this is the case, surely the Goons player is going to be playing Swamp Hag too?

If there is trashing, then perhaps it is dangerous to use a ton of buys in one turn, but that isn't all that common in Goons games until the game is ending, or nearly ending anyway (buying Coppers), and the Curses are likely low or out already if Swamp Hag is a factor at that point.

This is a good point, but the Goons player is most likely going to be buying *more* cards, so will probably be getting more Curses than they would be if this were a Witch game.

And Swamp Hag, unlike Witch, can discourage a player from making multiple cheap purchases, rather than one large purchase.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 02:00:40 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2015, 02:20:48 pm »
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You have to be mindful of the Curse pile when doing this.  If the Goons player is in the lead and can empty Curses for a 3 pile with however many buys he has, you've dug your own grave by playing Swamp Hag.

There's this and there's the fact that Swamp Hag has abruptly diminished returns when the curse pile runs dry whereas Goons keeps gaining +VP. If the curse pile were infinitely deep then this might be a more relevant counter.
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werothegreat

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2015, 02:26:39 pm »
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You have to be mindful of the Curse pile when doing this.  If the Goons player is in the lead and can empty Curses for a 3 pile with however many buys he has, you've dug your own grave by playing Swamp Hag.

There's this and there's the fact that Swamp Hag has abruptly diminished returns when the curse pile runs dry whereas Goons keeps gaining +VP. If the curse pile were infinitely deep then this might be a more relevant counter.

So would you consider Goons more of a counter to Swamp Hag than the other way around?
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Robz888

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2015, 02:28:13 pm »
+4

I doubt seriously there will be many situations where both cards are present, and because of Swamp Hag, you don't want to get Goons at all. It will happen, but not enough to call it a "counter." Because often times Goons' point gaining is just an explosion at the end, and draining Curses could be either negligible or even beneficial. In a lot of those engine cases, though, you'll probably just pick up both.

I think the more likely case where Swamp Hag might stop you from going Goons is that if there are no Villages and limited or no trashing, the terminal Curser, be it Swamp Hag or Witch or whatever, takes priority over the terminal discard attack + 1VP, at least for a while, and then maybe after you have already missed your window where Goons is worth it. In some cases. But not a lot of cases.
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Robz888

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 02:31:09 pm »
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You have to be mindful of the Curse pile when doing this.  If the Goons player is in the lead and can empty Curses for a 3 pile with however many buys he has, you've dug your own grave by playing Swamp Hag.

There's this and there's the fact that Swamp Hag has abruptly diminished returns when the curse pile runs dry whereas Goons keeps gaining +VP. If the curse pile were infinitely deep then this might be a more relevant counter.

So would you consider Goons more of a counter to Swamp Hag than the other way around?

Neither. They do have an interesting interaction, but whether you want one or both or neither is going to be too board dependent. I think a solid chunk of the time you'll just get both.

Possibly more interesting is if there is Swamp Hag and a better Curser, say, Witch, and Goons, does your opponent going for Goons make you want Swamp Hag instead of Witch, where otherwise you would want Witch? And the answer to that might very well be yes. Don't really think that's enough to call it a counter. But maybe, I suppose.

Edit: I said "Sea" when I meant "Swamp." That's going to happen a lot
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eHalcyon

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 03:32:30 pm »
+4

This should be in Dominion General Discussion or maybe Adventures Previews.  It's not an Article.
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dondon151

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2015, 11:10:15 pm »
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You might as well say that Swamp Hag counters all engines that rely on +buy to gain its components, but I doubt this is true. If there is support for an engine, then Swamp Hag won't stop the engine from being a better strategy. If you play BM with Swamp Hag vs. engine, there's no way to guarantee having a Swamp Hag out every turn. Conversely, the engine could have a Swamp Hag out every turn.

If both players go engine, then Swamp Hag is iffy payload in the early stages of the game. It occupies a competitive price point, provides zero benefit on play, and it's super likely to miss reshuffles because of the duration +3 cards.

EDIT: I'm dumb, I got Swamp Hag partially confused with Haunted Woods. It still has the duration problem of missing reshuffles though.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 11:38:00 pm by dondon151 »
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Heisenberg

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Re: Counter: Swamp Hag v. Goons
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2015, 11:17:31 pm »
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Swamp Hag is +3 coins, not 3 cards
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