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Author Topic: Preview: Transmogrify  (Read 44670 times)

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Watno

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2015, 09:41:13 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2015, 09:52:12 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2015, 09:53:57 am »
+1

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
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AJD

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2015, 10:08:59 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2015, 10:14:34 am »
+2

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do? "And put that card into your hand" makes it sound like a separate instruction, something you do after you have gained the card normally; not a new gain location. And with this ruling, Nomad Camp is indeed a question; I believe this is the first time that 2 different default Gain locations are happening at the same time. So does it go to hand, or on top of your deck, or your choice?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:16:18 am by GendoIkari »
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2015, 10:20:39 am »
+6

Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
Both Nomad Camp and Transmogrify change the default destination of the card (unlike Watchtower, which moves an already-gained card). Since they are different destinations, you choose which place you want the card to go. Neither destination automatically has precedence and they happen at the same time.
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blaisepascal

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2015, 10:24:15 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)

I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2015, 10:25:32 am »
0

I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
Royal Seal and Watchtower move an already-gained card (if they can find it, which normally they can, but Border Village and Inn can mess with that).

Nomad Camp is not already-gained because I didn't think anyone would ever play it like that and at the same time did not want a convoluted wording for it.
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joel88s

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2015, 10:26:11 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2015, 10:27:19 am »
+5

This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do?
Because after phrasing the card there wasn't a moment when I thought "oh hey this should match Explorer or people will be asking me if I meant anything by the difference in wording."
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2015, 10:28:00 am »
+2

Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify.  Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.

Sweet!
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2015, 10:29:05 am »
0

I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)

I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
Nomad Camp not Noble Brigand; Noble Brigand would end up in your hand!

Trader replaces both "what is being gained" and "where does it go." If you Transmogrify a Shelter into an Estate and reveal Trader, the Silver goes to your discard pile.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2015, 10:34:02 am »
0

Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify.  Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.

Sweet!

LOL.. best combo ever!
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2015, 10:35:34 am »
+1

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)

* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit.  (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)

* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of.  (Watchtower, Royal Seal)

Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?

Man, lots of italics.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #139 on: April 01, 2015, 10:38:01 am »
+2

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)


This isn't really correct. Nomad Camp is NOT a "when-gain" effect. It's just worded that way, confusingly. Though there's not a really good wording for it, it would be more accurate if it said "Nomad Camp is gained to the top of your deck." It's not something that triggers on-gain.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2015, 10:39:57 am »
+1

I kind of think Nomad Camp should just have a below-line.  It's something that's always in effect and not a result of the card doing stuff.

...
--------------
This card is gained to the top of your deck.

Edit: Or, maybe word it better so it doesn't sound like you're continuously gaining it.  "Gaining this card puts it on top of your deck."  I dunno, something like that.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:47:37 am by Witherweaver »
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Watno

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2015, 10:42:15 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #142 on: April 01, 2015, 11:06:34 am »
+2

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)

* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit.  (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)

* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of.  (Watchtower, Royal Seal)

Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?

Man, lots of italics.
Nomad Camp on a Possession turn goes to the gaining player's deck top.

The distinction is that Watchtower and Royal Seal make something else happen ahead of moving the card (in both cases, a decision; Watchtower also is revealed). The game has to be in some state when that something else happens, and given the phrasings, the gain has happened already.

Nomad Camp Explorer etc. don't do anything else and again my feeling was that no-one would physically put the card somewhere else first and I didn't want to say "the gain destination for that card is your hand" or some such.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #143 on: April 01, 2015, 11:55:24 am »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

joel88s

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #144 on: April 01, 2015, 01:11:36 pm »
+1

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
Well, the piece is 100 years old, so the usage may well be as well. And it's true people don't tend to walk around saying, "Gee, I'm sure feeling transfigured today!"
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Watno

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2015, 08:44:15 am »
0

Thinking abou this a bit, I noticed that relying on Transmogrify for engine reliability can really go wrong once piles are emptying.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2015, 09:00:09 am »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2015, 12:07:01 pm »
+1

I just realized the guy who shared the Transmogrify preview on BGG is Eric J Carter, the artist for Guide.  Apparently he's also a Dominion nut like we all are?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 12:08:23 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2015, 12:13:56 pm »
0

It's also a chance for him to share his work.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2015, 01:19:57 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.

No, less. The card I am getting rid of can cost less than the card I am getting. My sentence is probably real confusing, but that's what it says.
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