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LastFootnote

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Preview: Transmogrify
« on: March 31, 2015, 01:59:14 pm »
+30




trans•mog•ri•fy: verb
– transform, especially in a surprising or magical manner.

Today I’m here to tell you about my favorite Dominion card: Transmogrify. It has a strange name, but packs a lot of versatility. Transmogrify is all about giving you what you need right now. Does your starting hand have three terminal Actions? Poof! Now one of them is a Village. Have your Magpies been multiplying out of control? Abracadabra! One of them just became a Lost City. Have all the Curses run out? Shazam! That Witch in your hand just turned to Gold. The possibilities are endless!

It’s a terrific card for combos. Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand. It’s especially powerful with cards that have on-trash abilities. You can transmogrify a Cultist into another Cultist just to draw 3 cards. And when you Transmogrify a Fortress, you keep the Fortress in your hand and gain a Wharf into your hand on top of that. Instant engine!

I hope you’re enjoying these little bonus previews. Come back tomorrow, when somebody else will be talking about some other card!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 02:00:48 pm »
0

Finally!  This was the one card from the meetup I didn't fully memorize.

Also, no idea how the Germans are going to translate this one - the closest thing is "Verwandlung", but that's already in use for Transmute.  :/

Cool card, though!
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Voltaire

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 02:02:53 pm »
+8

Guys. Guys.

This card is SO FUN.

It's pretty much the only card I remember from the meetup in detail, because I just kept buying them, and using them, and having fun, and losing (to Big Money). Didn't care.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 02:04:01 pm »
+1

Wow, you highlighted some really interesting uses. I want this.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 02:05:43 pm »
+6

High fun, high skill.  Transmogrify is a really special card.  Celestial Chameleon, get to work.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 02:07:45 pm »
+1

Wow. That looks like a LOT OF FUN
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 02:08:38 pm »
+8

Wow, you highlighted some really interesting uses. I want this.

For some reason, playing with Transmogrify makes me feel like a mad scientist. I have cackled out loud on several occasions after making what I perceived as a brilliant play with this card.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 02:10:47 pm »
0

One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to.  That means you can gain Victory cards as well.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 02:12:54 pm »
+1

One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to.  That means you can gain Victory cards as well.

Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 02:13:53 pm »
+2

One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to.  That means you can gain Victory cards as well.

Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.

That's why you use it for Nobles!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 02:14:07 pm »
+9

One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to.  That means you can gain Victory cards as well.

Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.

Well, every now and then winning a game is fun.  But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 02:14:49 pm »
0

This was another one of my favorites. I had a lot of fun just buying lots of them, and then Transmogrifying my Transmogrifies to get exactly what I needed on that turn.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 02:16:14 pm »
+2

One thing LF didn't elaborate on: Transmogrify doesn't care what kind of card you trash or change things to.  That means you can gain Victory cards as well.

Sure, but what fun is that? Gaining Actions into your hand is where it's at.
I'll be happy to change the boring Expand into a Province if my Tournament is already waiting in hand.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 02:16:32 pm »
0

Well, every now and then winning a game is fun.  But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.

 :P

But in all seriousness, although you obviously will sometimes be gaining Victory cards with Transmogrify, that's not where it shines. Unless that Victory card is a Province to activate your Tournament or Explorer, you're not really utilizing Transmogrify's full potential.
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Blueswan

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 02:17:23 pm »
+1

Gotta love this card. An instant favourite. This expansion is gonna be awesome.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 02:17:46 pm »
0

Hmm... there's starting to get to be a lot of crazy stuff that can happen at the start of the turn.  You can draw quite a bit with Durations already to further fuel Transmogrify, and of course Prince could be doing just about anything.  And then the other Reserve cards.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 02:18:51 pm »
0

Well, every now and then winning a game is fun.  But I agree that making silly combos is generally better.

 :P

But in all seriousness, although you obviously will sometimes be gaining Victory cards with Transmogrify, that's not where it shines. Unless that Victory card is a Province to activate your Tournament or Explorer, you're not really utilizing Transmogrify's full potential.

The cost range also makes it a lot more difficult to Remodel into Provinces, making it even more suited to engine building.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 02:20:08 pm »
+1

I'm going to be the boring person and point out that Transmorgify opening lets you turn an Estate into a Silver, which is +$2 on that turn while doing that Upgrade, and that's super nice.

Although, you need to draw it T3 to use it on T4, so who knows how that's going to go.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2015, 02:21:03 pm »
+1

Does this fulfill the "Remodel into hand" dream?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2015, 02:21:31 pm »
+2

I just thought of a use case that I never tried at the meetup... if you have multiple of these in your Tavern, then you can get more than +$1 cost for the thing you trash... With 2 of them, you can turn that Silver into a Witch (as long as $4s exist). Due to rareness of $7s, it will still be hard to gain Provinces this way.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2015, 02:22:51 pm »
+24

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2015, 02:23:19 pm »
+1

I'm going to be the boring person and point out that Transmorgify opening lets you turn an Estate into a Silver, which is +$2 on that turn while doing that Upgrade, and that's super nice.

Although, you need to draw it T3 to use it on T4, so who knows how that's going to go.

But wait, there's more! You can look at your hand and, depending on whether you already have a terminal Action in it, decide whether to upgrade into a Silver or e.g. a Swindler. Sure that might not be what your deck needs long-term, but you can turn that Swindler (or another terminal Action) into something else later! Min/max your turns!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2015, 02:23:37 pm »
0

I just thought of a use case that I never tried at the meetup... if you have multiple of these in your Tavern, then you can get more than +$1 cost for the thing you trash... With 2 of them, you can turn that Silver into a Witch (as long as $4s exist). Due to rareness of $7s, it will still be hard to gain Provinces this way.

The one problem (and why it can cost $4 when Mine costs $5, aside from Mine's cost change) is that it's slow, like most Reserves, honestly.  You have to play it, call it, then wait for the next shuffle to play it again.  The mitigating factor is that you don't have to worry about it colliding in hand, since you can just wait for a good target.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2015, 02:23:42 pm »
+20

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.

That was Donald's prototype art.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2015, 02:25:28 pm »
0

I question myself if the Reserve cards lean towards "Fantasy" thematically or is it coincidence?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2015, 02:25:34 pm »
0

Or you could turn a rock into a .... rainbow parrot?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2015, 02:26:09 pm »
+4

I question myself if the Reserve cards lean towards "Fantasy" thematically or is it coincidence?

You may find many mystical and wonderful things on your Adventure.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2015, 02:26:44 pm »
+1

My first impression was this is some sort of wonky delayed Upgrade.  Since one of the main uses of Upgrade is to trash Coppers, I couldn't quite see the point.  The examples suggest that the flexibility of choosing a useful card to go straight to hand is valuable, although you're still wasting a card in an earlier turn to pay for it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2015, 02:27:21 pm »
+4

Eric J. Carter did the mat. It shows some of the characters from the Reserve cards in a tavern. Beyond that you will have to wait until the set is out to see it.

I really hope this is one of the guys just casually chilling in the Tavern.
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Seprix

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2015, 02:33:46 pm »
+1

That's a fantastic card. Wow.. It's a slow card sure, but it's power is in the versatility it brings to the table.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2015, 02:36:11 pm »
+2

Or you could turn a rock into a .... rainbow parrot?

Or maybe he's turning a rainbow parrot into a roc.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2015, 02:37:34 pm »
+3

That's a fantastic card. Wow.. It's a slow card sure, but it's power is in the versatility awesomeness it brings to the table.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2015, 02:40:21 pm »
+4

Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand.

This has great potential for any cards that require certain collisions, e.g., Treasure Map. Just buy one, then wait "for the right moment".
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2015, 02:42:42 pm »
+12

This card: not the strongest because it's pretty slow, and it's so hard to play correctly, but who cares? Losing with this card is more fun than winning without it!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2015, 02:43:35 pm »
0

Wow, I lllove that Reserved cards concept, and especially this one.

It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2015, 02:46:38 pm »
+1

Is there an extra comma in there?

Should "At the start of your turn, you may call this, to trash..." be, "At the start of your turn, you may call this to trash..."?

Because if so, this entire expansion is ruined for me.

slowpoke.jpg
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2015, 02:46:44 pm »
+2

Instead of buying Tournaments, you can simply keep your Transmogrify on your Tavern mat until your Province shows up and then gain that Tournament right into your hand.

This has great potential for any cards that require certain collisions, e.g., Treasure Map. Just buy one, then wait "for the right moment".

TREASURE MAP OP!?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2015, 02:48:07 pm »
+6

If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?

If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2015, 02:48:47 pm »
+1

My first impression was this is some sort of wonky delayed Upgrade.  Since one of the main uses of Upgrade is to trash Coppers, I couldn't quite see the point.  The examples suggest that the flexibility of choosing a useful card to go straight to hand is valuable, although you're still wasting a card in an earlier turn to pay for it.

It's up to $1 more, so you can't actually remove Copper with it in the same way as you would with Upgrade.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2015, 02:49:29 pm »
+4

If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?

If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?

Trash from Transmogrify happens before Gaining, so you have to resolve Trashing first.  Then Gain.  In the first case, you'd Gain the Attack before you Gain the Watchtower. 
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:24 pm »
+2

If I Transmogrify Squire to Watchtower, can I reveal it to topdeck the gained Attack?

If I Transmogrify Estate to Market Square, can I reveal it for the trashed Estate?

No.  You're trashing first, and then you're gaining.  The gaining happens after the trashing.  Both of those effects happen *when* trash.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:40 pm »
+1

Quote
It’s especially powerful with cards that have on-trash abilities. You can transmogrify a Cultist into another Cultist just to draw 3 cards. And when you Transmogrify a Fortress, you keep the Fortress in your hand and gain a Wharf into your hand on top of that. Instant engine!

HOLY ****. I just read this. Mind = Blown

This might be my favorite card, replacing Counterfeit..
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2015, 02:50:46 pm »
+1

Butcher is not the worst copper trasher anymore!  ;D

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2015, 02:53:24 pm »
+7

I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2015, 02:53:53 pm »
0

Butcher is not the worst copper trasher anymore!  ;D

Butcher + Watchtower = OP

I saw this once and I lost because I didn't try it. D: Stef even said that was the way to go :'(
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2015, 02:56:23 pm »
+2

I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out

Wow, that's legit..

Also, there's playing two Highways, transmorgifying a Forge into a Province, and then playing Duplicate to gain another Province. We could see Duplicator rushes if Bridge/Highway/Princess is on the board. :O
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2015, 03:02:03 pm »
0




trans•mog•ri•fy: verb
– transform, especially in a surprising or magical manner.
Also:

noun; An "Influence" card played during a players turn in PKCards.

PKCards: A CCG/TCG combining the scoring mechanics of War and Euchre with mythical theming and pvp made popular by MtG

Disclaimer: I thought this game was immensely fun, and have never liked MtG.

Downfall: Tried to compete with MtG, YuGiOh, Pokemon by method of displacement. Owner did not believe in marketing.

----

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2015, 03:06:38 pm »
+4

Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2015, 03:07:43 pm »
0

Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion. I kind of guessed it when the title was revealed, Lost City and Magpie made it pretty plausible, and now i think it's confirmed. Finally! I like how this reminds me of Transmute, just that this is absolutely great. I like the guy on the card, he seems to have a lot of fund being a crazy wizard.

Well, who wouldn't?

About the german Translation: Formwandlung/Umwandlung/Gestaltwandlung seem appropriate.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2015, 03:08:23 pm »
+1

It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.

So I would say this is true of most reserve cards (Guide <3 <3 <3) but it's much less true of Transmogrify; since it's a trasher that's likely to miss shuffles.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2015, 03:15:48 pm »
0

Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.

Tranmogrify, Trash card A, Gain Card B, Reveal Watchtower to place Card B on top of your deck, lose track of Card B with Transmogrify.  Now B is safely on top of your deck to draw with your Minion.

Synergy. 

(Obviously, Card B is terminal, and you only had a single Minion with no other Actions save Watchtower.  And your opponent had 5 cards in hand, and you needed to make sure you made him discard them.)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 03:18:06 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2015, 03:17:21 pm »
+1

How does it combine with Scout?

If someone Swindles or Ambassadors you a Scout, you can Transmogrify it into something actually useful.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2015, 03:18:46 pm »
+1

Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.

Tranmogrify, Trash card A, Gain Card B, Reveal Watchtower to place Card B on top of your deck, lose track of Card B with Transmogrify.  Now B is safely on top of your deck to draw with your Minion.

Synergy. 
Well obviously. I was thinking about more subtle things, like it decreasing handsize.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2015, 03:19:18 pm »
+4

How does it combine with Scout?

If someone Swindles or Ambassadors you a Scout, you can Transmogrify it into something actually useful.

Oh come on, think outside the box.

Transmogrify a $5 into Nobles.  Reveal Watchtower to put Nobles on top of your deck.  Play Scout to draw Nobles.  Combos with both Watchtower and Scout!!!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2015, 03:22:46 pm »
+1

Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2015, 03:23:14 pm »
+7

So..
Am I only one who is excited we have a Calvin&Hobbes card?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2015, 03:26:01 pm »
0

So, I always thought Bill Watterson had made up this word until I looked it up just now...
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2015, 03:27:26 pm »
0

Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...

That was Lost City.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2015, 03:28:13 pm »
+1

Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...

That was Lost City.

I doubt that. How often are you going to open with Lost City? Often enough it'll be a Moat during your second shuffle.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2015, 03:32:08 pm »
0

It makes the possibility of randomly losing the game because of bad draws way smaller.

So I would say this is true of most reserve cards (Guide <3 <3 <3) but it's much less true of Transmogrify; since it's a trasher that's likely to miss shuffles.

I'm guessing the "put into hand" part will make missing shuffles not hurt so bad.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2015, 03:32:51 pm »
+1

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2015, 03:33:58 pm »
0

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain. 

Edit: I believe I was wrong, but I wanted to state it with confidence so I phrased it in the "I know what I'm talking about" tone.  Which I always suggest, especially when you don't know what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 03:51:02 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2015, 03:36:17 pm »
+1

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2015, 03:36:51 pm »
0

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it.  It goes on top of your deck.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2015, 03:38:41 pm »
0

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

Oh actually, I just noticed Transmogrify has different wording than other cards: Explorer says "Gain a Silver card, putting it into your hand", and Transmogrify says "gain a card… and put that card into your hand", as two steps. So now I think Nomad Camp ends up in your hand with Transmogrify.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2015, 03:39:00 pm »
0

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

I'm not sure I understand the difference.  I think that if you had a "When you gain a card, you may..." reaction with Nomad Camp, you could choose the order right?

As I'm reading it, Transmogrify does three things separately:  Trash a card (resolve all reactions).  Gain a card (resolve all reactions).  Put gained card in hand.  I would think Nomad Camp's effect falls into the "resolve all reactions" part of "Gain a card".
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2015, 03:41:11 pm »
0

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

I'm not sure I understand the difference.  I think that if you had a "When you gain a card, you may..." reaction with Nomad Camp, you could choose the order right?

No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2015, 03:44:00 pm »
+1

What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it.  It goes on top of your deck.

I disagree. Transmogrify doesn't lose track of Nomad Camp because nothing moves it between when it is gained and when Transmogrify tries to move it. Compare: you can play Explorer and use Watchtower to trash the incoming Silver; the fact that Explorer sends the Silver to a non-standard gain location doesn't make Watchtower lose track of it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2015, 03:45:29 pm »
0

Now I can't wait to see the card that helps P2...

That was Lost City.

I doubt that. How often are you going to open with Lost City? Often enough it'll be a Moat during your second shuffle.
It doesn't have to be purchased in the opening to help P2. P1 getting Lost City boosts a P2 turn that is earlier than the turn P1 would have boosted if P2 got it on the next turn. This assumes that having an extra card is on average better earlier in the game than later

But really, this advantage may be so minor in practice that it won't really be considered a P2 advantage unless P1 opens with Lost City .
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 03:46:44 pm by markusin »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2015, 03:46:37 pm »
0

No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.

Huh.  Has this issue come up before?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2015, 03:48:43 pm »
+2

No. "When you gain a card, you may…" effects happen after the card is gained. Nomad Camp lands on the deck as it is gained; when when-gain effects trigger, Nomad Camp is already on top of your deck.

Huh.  Has this issue come up before?

Yes. I don't remember when and why, but i can confirm that Donald clearly stated Nomad Camp is not moved from your discard pile to the top of your deck, but instead gained directly to your deck. I think it was some discussion about Watchtower, topdecking, lose track, etc.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2015, 03:49:45 pm »
+1

 
What happens if you Transmogrify into Nomad Camp?

It goes on top of your deck.  Nomad Camp triggers on-gain.

Nomad Camp doesn't "trigger on-gain" in the sense of other things that trigger on-gain; you don't gain Nomad Camp and then put it on top of your deck. It just moves directly to your deck-top when you gain it.

Which would mean, since the put-in-hand happens after gaining, Transmogrify should lose track of Nomad Camp when you gain it.  It goes on top of your deck.

I disagree. Transmogrify doesn't lose track of Nomad Camp because nothing moves it between when it is gained and when Transmogrify tries to move it. Compare: you can play Explorer and use Watchtower to trash the incoming Silver; the fact that Explorer sends the Silver to a non-standard gain location doesn't make Watchtower lose track of it.

Okay, I think I agree with you now.  I was imaging Nomad Camp goes Gain -> Discard Pile -> Move to Deck, but it just goes Gain to Deck immediately.  So then Transmogrify would "expect" it to be on top of your deck, and it is, so hooray, put it in your hand?

PPE: I found a BGG thread that had the question.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2015, 03:55:02 pm »
+13

I transmogrify my Woodcutter to gain a Nomad Camp, putting it into my hand.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2015, 03:58:07 pm »
+3

Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion.

Alchemy is a fantasy-themed expansion.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2015, 04:09:52 pm »
+4

You can reveal Watchtower to trash a gained Nomad Camp. This is because after Nomad Camp was gained, it's exactly where Watchtower expects it to be, which is on top of your deck. Watchtower isn't automatically looking in the discard pile for gained cards, it's looking for wherever those cards were gained to.

With Transmogrify, it should work exactly the same. Transmogrify moves the card from where it expects it to be (on top of your deck) to your hand.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2015, 04:18:47 pm »
+2

Woo-hoo, i always hoped for a Fantasy themed expansion.

Alchemy is a fantasy-themed expansion.

Well, sure. I guess i mean "Epic Fantasy". Like in the one Dominion-knockoff-which-shall-not-be-named. It was one of the few things i appreaciated there. Alchemy is mostly medieval pseudo-science-geeks with beards, glasses and explosion holes in their clothing.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2015, 04:20:50 pm »
+1

Awesome card. Glad to see the interactions with watchtower are already being explored.
Most notably being able to gain a Watchtower into your hand whenever you have a card that costs $2 or more in your hand and Transmogrify in the tavern. You can *call* that creative synergy, if you like. :-)
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2015, 04:27:00 pm »
+2

Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2015, 04:27:12 pm »
+4

Well, sure. I guess i mean "Epic Fantasy". Like in the one Dominion-knockoff-which-shall-not-be-named.

Well, that narrows it down to two or three possibilities.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2015, 04:54:59 pm »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2015, 05:00:49 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.
It's not just non-terminal; it also only decreases hand size by 1 rather than 2, like Upgrade. It's slower and can't trash Coppers, but it's also cheaper and can do all sorts of shenanigans by getting you what you want when you need it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2015, 05:01:09 pm »
+2

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2015, 05:06:29 pm »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2015, 05:09:08 pm »
0

Well I suppose we'll see how it pans out once Adventures is available online. I can pretty much guarantee you it's not weak with Rats, Cultist, etc. And if you ignore it on a Fortress board and your opponent doesn't, you will lose. Its exact strength in the general case is still up in the air.

EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 05:17:39 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2015, 05:13:52 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2015, 05:20:42 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2015, 05:33:24 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.

It only reduces your handsize when you play it.  You  do the upgrading later, where it doesn't change your handsize. 
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2015, 05:33:53 pm »
+1

I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2015, 05:34:21 pm »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.

This doesn't reduce your handsize at all. Well, sort of. It reduces it the turn that it gets played. But the turn that it gets called, which is the turn that this thing is bought for, it keeps your handsize at 5.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2015, 05:36:36 pm »
+5

EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.

When first playing with Transmogrify I just assumed it would be too slow. I don't really think that now. But I don't know how I'd describe it's strength. I guess something around middling to good. I mean really, there's a whole bunch of Dominion cards that look bad if you assign them in an ordered ranking, but aren't bad if you were to just rate all the cards on a scale of 20 or something.

It's not a powerhouse but it still has pretty good utility all around, it's never a complete dud. Even Estate into Silver in hand is okay sometimes. I think it's easy to underestimate how helpful the "change a card in hand" optionality is. Also the "wait until the card I want to improve is in hand" aspect (keeping shuffles in mind). It also allows a timely Province -> Province which is not a small thing if you get a points lead and need to end the game. Unlike other such cards, you don't need to line up the Province with the card in hand.

It has at least one really strong interaction (Fortress) and some other nice ones too. I have done Feodum things with it a few times.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2015, 05:37:00 pm »
+3

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.

As somebody who did playtest this, you are correct.

Comparisons to Band of Misfits should be made, I think. Band of Misfits becomes whatever card you need at the moment, up to $4. This turns another card in your hand into whatever you need at the moment. And instead of up to $4, it's up to X+1, where X is the cost of the card you're using as your "BoM". And then this also trashes, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad, since you'll be trashing non-junk with it.

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2015, 05:38:57 pm »
+4

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.

AKA a Ruined Village?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2015, 05:39:29 pm »
+3

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.

AKA a Ruined Village?

 ;D I suppose that would have been simpler.

You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2015, 05:41:06 pm »
+8

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.

AKA a Ruined Village?

 ;D I suppose that would have been simpler.

You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.

It's also a Ruined Village without the +Action and with the +1 Buy, +$2.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2015, 05:41:51 pm »
+14

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.

AKA a Ruined Village?

 ;D I suppose that would have been simpler.

You know, the vanilla portion of Goons is basically just a Festival without the +Actions.

It's also a Ruined Village without the +Action and with the +1 Buy, +$2.

Man, Ruined Village really is overpowered... it's practically a non-terminal Goons!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2015, 05:56:03 pm »
+2

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

As somebody who never playtested this, i predict it's much better than you think. Remodel is not only terminal, it reduces your handsize by two when you actually use it and needs to collide. This DOES reduce your handsize, but only by one, and instead improves another card in your hand. I think we learned from Tactician that one great turn is better than two mediocre ones.

As somebody who did playtest this, you are correct.

Comparisons to Band of Misfits should be made, I think. Band of Misfits becomes whatever card you need at the moment, up to $4. This turns another card in your hand into whatever you need at the moment. And instead of up to $4, it's up to X+1, where X is the cost of the card you're using as your "BoM". And then this also trashes, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad, since you'll be trashing non-junk with it.

The only real drawback is the turn it gets played. Then it's a blocked Tournament.

Ok... I think BoM is quite a weak card. And the drawback of having to play it still seems like a real drawback to me.

When I say I think it's weak, I don't mean "It's weak - I think I'd usually rather not have it than have it", I mean "It's weak - I think there'll usually be something else on the board I'd want more". I'm sure it will see plenty of play.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2015, 06:21:49 pm »
+9

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.

That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2015, 06:26:16 pm »
0

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.

That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?

Now I see where he got his names for things.  Bill Watterson will not be happy, Donald X.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2015, 06:30:23 pm »
+1

Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2015, 06:34:51 pm »
0

Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
See previous page, there are 13 posts that mention Nomad Camp.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2015, 06:35:28 pm »
0

Okay, well, if I reveal a Watchtower to topdeck the gained card, THEN Transmogrify will lose track of it.
What if the gained card is Nomad Camp?
See previous page, there are 13 posts that mention Nomad Camp.

But none about what happens if you use a Watchtower to topdeck Nomad Camp!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2015, 06:39:23 pm »
+1

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.

That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?

Now I see where he got his names for things.  Bill Watterson will not be happy, Donald X.

Time Machine would be a great name for a Reserve card.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2015, 07:15:52 pm »
0

All these reserve cards are making end games even more complicated.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2015, 07:48:16 pm »
0

I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.

That got me thinking, if i Prince a Reserve, and call it the turn i play it, can i play (and call) it again next turn? I would guess that yes, i can.

Edit: But maybe Prince would lose track, as the Reserve wasn't where it thought it would be, inbetween.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:50:34 pm by Asper »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2015, 08:06:33 pm »
+5

I mean, barring weird starting turn stuff, the playing and upgrading are going to be done with different hands.

That got me thinking, if i Prince a Reserve, and call it the turn i play it, can i play (and call) it again next turn? I would guess that yes, i can.

Edit: But maybe Prince would lose track, as the Reserve wasn't where it thought it would be, inbetween.

I had this same question. You cannot. Prince loses track of it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2015, 09:21:48 pm »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2015, 09:40:23 pm »
+6

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2015, 11:12:19 pm »
+17

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2015, 11:30:00 pm »
+21



Confirmed: Dominion now has zaps.

Well, you obviously need zaps for Adventures.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2015, 12:04:06 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
At this very moment?! Cool. Are you a brass player? [who notoriously have books open on their stands during long rests in performances] Hope the conductor can't see your iPad.
Verklärung is strictly Transfiguration of course, which is in a way almost opposite of transmogrification (which my spell-correct knows, hey!). Still I kind of like it. Only thing is, if they use that and there every is a Transfiguration card, then they'd be screwed.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 12:27:01 am by joel88s »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2015, 12:26:17 am »
0

Regarding where a Transmogrified Nomad Camp goes [not a phrase I ever foresaw myself writing], I can see the fun of parsing the grammar and arguing it one way or the other, but ultimately -

Transmogrification: 'gain a card... and put that card into your hand'
Nomad Camp: 'When you gain this, put it on top of you deck'

- both clearly on-gain effects, seem to me as close to conflicting instructions as you're going to get. And thus would need to be resolved by rule (as I assume they doubtless are).

Yes, I understand the concept that if one card acts first, it can obviate the ability to obey the other (assuming lose track applies; if not then oddly the latter acting card would win the day.) I guess I'm saying any attempt to determine sequence from those phrases seems to me ultimately more speculative than dispositive.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #111 on: April 01, 2015, 12:41:06 am »
0

I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out

Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #112 on: April 01, 2015, 12:49:11 am »
+4

I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out

Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?
Of course you can. You just can't use Remodel to turn a non-potion costing card into a potion costing one. Ever. You can however trash a Scrying Pool into a Golem with Remodel, or into any $4 potion or non-potion costing card for that matter.

You can even trash a Scrying Pool with Stonemason to get two $2 cards. But you can't gain potion costing card by trashing a non-potion costing card with Stonemason.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 12:51:18 am by markusin »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2015, 12:51:26 am »
0

I won't be satisfied until I transmog a Familiar into a Golem after the curses run out

Is this actually legal? AFAIK you cant usually use the remodel type cards with potion costing cards?

Yes.  You can't Remodel from a non-Potion card to a Potion card, but you can certainly go from Potion card to Potion card.  Golem costs exactly $1 more than Familiar.

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.
At this very moment?! Cool. Are you a brass player? [who notoriously have books open on their stands during long rests in performances] Hope the conductor can't see your iPad.
Verklärung is strictly Transfiguration of course, which is in a way almost opposite of transmogrification (which my spell-correct knows, hey!). Still I kind of like it. Only thing is, if they use that and there every is a Transfiguration card, then they'd be screwed.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2015, 01:09:40 am »
0

I think I finally get the Nomad Camp interaction.

Lose Track happens when two things happen at the same time, and one moves a card from where the other expects it to be.  E.g. Hermit/Scheme.  Hermit can't trash itself because it's not in play - Scheme put it on your deck.

The No Visiting rule says that cards gained to somewhere other than the discard pile just go straight where they're going.  This isn't something else happening when gaining, this is just a different gain destination. 

However, if other cards want to move it, they can conflict.  If I gain a Silver, and reveal Watchtower to trash it, then react Royal Seal to topdeck it, Royal Seal can't find the card.

So let's imagine a ShitWatchtower that can be revealed to put a card in your discard pile.

I Transmogrify Woodcutter into a Nomad Camp.  I gain a Nomad Camp.
* NC wants to go to the top of my deck.
* If I don't reveal ShitWT, Transmogrify has kept track of NC, and puts it in my hand.
* If I do reveal ShitWT, NC goes into my discard pile.  Transmogrify was expecting it on the top of my deck, but can't find it now doesn't care where it's going and keeps track of it.  NC doesn't go into my hand.

EDIT: Further parsing of No Visiting has led me to conclude that a Watchtower'd (to your deck, not trashed) or Royal Seal'd card should follow the same policy - it should not visit the discard pile, and should not be lost track of.

"When you gain" happens before the card hits the location it's going.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 01:15:34 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #115 on: April 01, 2015, 01:31:45 am »
+1

Okay, this is starting to hurt my head.  Following this, then it means that Transmogrify's to-hand gain also does not happen *after* gaining.  Let's look at Border Village:

*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand happens after gaining, you turn a $5 into Border Village.  BV goes into your discard pile.  At the same time, you gain something cheaper, which also goes into your discard pile.  That something goes on top of BV.  Now, when Transmogrify looks for BV to put it in your hand, it has *definitely* lost track of it - there's something covering it up.

*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand is the same as Nomad Camp's put-on-deck, then the BV would be rerouted to your hand, while the cheaper something would go to your discard pile.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #116 on: April 01, 2015, 01:34:56 am »
+3

Transmogrification: 'gain a card... and put that card into your hand'
Nomad Camp: 'When you gain this, put it on top of you deck'

- both clearly on-gain effects, seem to me as close to conflicting instructions as you're going to get.

No, neither of these is an on-gain effect. An on-gain effect takes place immediately after you gain a card.

Nomad Camp, sadly, is phrased as an on-gain effect (it has the same phrasing as, say, Inn and Border Village, "when you gain this"), but Donald X. has ruled that it's not. If Nomad Camp's self-topdecking were an on-gain effect, what would happen would be: (1) gain Nomad Camp (to your discard pile), and then immediately (2) put Nomad Camp on your deck. But that's not what happens; Nomad Camp goes directly to your deck. So instead of having an on-gain effect, it just has a nonstandard gain destination. This puts Nomad Camp in the small class of cards whose text isn't a correct description of what they actually do in terms of a strict interpretation of the game rules.

Transmogrification is phrased as two instructions, one after another: (1) gain a card, and then (2) put that card in your hand. (2) isn't an on-gain effect; it's just a thing that happens. Any on-gain effects of the card gained in (1) must therefore take place before (2). Compare Rats, which tells you to (1') gain another Rats and (2') trash something. (2') isn't an "on-gain effect" of (1').
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2015, 01:38:18 am »
+2

So let's imagine a ShitWatchtower that can be revealed to put a card in your discard pile.

I Transmogrify Woodcutter into a Nomad Camp.  I gain a Nomad Camp.
* NC wants to go to the top of my deck.
* If I don't reveal ShitWT, Transmogrify has kept track of NC, and puts it in my hand.
* If I do reveal ShitWT, NC goes into my discard pile.  Transmogrify was expecting it on the top of my deck, but can't find it now doesn't care where it's going and keeps track of it.  NC doesn't go into my hand.

No, you were right the first time. Transmogrify is expecting it to be where it was gained to (your deck), and then something else moved it (ShitWT), so lose-track takes effect and Transmogrify can't find it.

Quote
EDIT: Further parsing of No Visiting has led me to conclude that a Watchtower'd (to your deck, not trashed) or Royal Seal'd card should follow the same policy - it should not visit the discard pile, and should not be lost track of.

This is wrong. Watchtower and Royal Seal are when-gain effects; then only activate after the gained card has hit the discard pile (or wherever it would be going).

Quote
"When you gain" happens before the card hits the location it's going.

No, a thousand times no. Compare Inn, which must be in the discard pile before its when-gain effect activates.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #118 on: April 01, 2015, 01:42:43 am »
+1

Okay, this is starting to hurt my head.  Following this, then it means that Transmogrify's to-hand gain also does not happen *after* gaining.  Let's look at Border Village:

*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand happens after gaining, you turn a $5 into Border Village.  BV goes into your discard pile.  At the same time, you gain something cheaper, which also goes into your discard pile.  That something goes on top of BV.  Now, when Transmogrify looks for BV to put it in your hand, it has *definitely* lost track of it - there's something covering it up.

*If Transmogrify's put-in-hand is the same as Nomad Camp's put-on-deck, then the BV would be rerouted to your hand, while the cheaper something would go to your discard pile.

Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2015, 01:45:37 am »
0

Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.

I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2015, 02:00:07 am »
0

Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.

I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.

Is there any reason we think this might not be correct? The no-visiting rule seems pretty clear on this point, the way I'm reading it. It is confusing, though.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2015, 02:28:05 am »
0

Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 02:29:32 am by joel88s »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2015, 02:35:31 am »
0

Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?
Here
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2015, 09:37:29 am »
+1

Well I suppose we'll see how it pans out once Adventures is available online. I can pretty much guarantee you it's not weak with Rats, Cultist, etc. And if you ignore it on a Fortress board and your opponent doesn't, you will lose. Its exact strength in the general case is still up in the air.

EDIT: Although I am curious how e.g. Stef and Mic feel about the card vis a vis its strength.

So... this card is Hot Air Balloon, then ;)?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2015, 09:38:09 am »
0

Does someone have a link to the No Visiting rule, or know which expansion rulebook it's in if it is?

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Dark_Ages#.22No_visiting.22_rule

Hmm, this is a serious conundrum, actually, isn't it. I agree that, the way Transmogrify is phrased, as a sequence (1) gain something and then (2) put the gained thing in your hand, Transmogrify should lose track of Border Village and not put it in hand. So is this the correct interpretation? Or should Transmogrify actually be interpreted in the same way as Explorer's "gain a Silver, putting it in your hand" after all, as a redirected gain with no visiting? I think we might need Donald to clarify this one.

I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the intent is no visiting. The gained card should go right to your hand. Admittedly it could be phrased better on the card.

Is there any reason we think this might not be correct? The no-visiting rule seems pretty clear on this point, the way I'm reading it. It is confusing, though.

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.

EDIT: An interesting consequence of this is that if the cheaper card Border Village gains is Nomad Camp, you don't lose track of BV.  :)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 09:41:13 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2015, 09:41:13 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2015, 09:52:12 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2015, 09:53:57 am »
+1

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2015, 10:08:59 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2015, 10:14:34 am »
+2

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do? "And put that card into your hand" makes it sound like a separate instruction, something you do after you have gained the card normally; not a new gain location. And with this ruling, Nomad Camp is indeed a question; I believe this is the first time that 2 different default Gain locations are happening at the same time. So does it go to hand, or on top of your deck, or your choice?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:16:18 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2015, 10:20:39 am »
+6

Oh.. then.. what's the Nomad Camp/Transmogrify interaction?
Both Nomad Camp and Transmogrify change the default destination of the card (unlike Watchtower, which moves an already-gained card). Since they are different destinations, you choose which place you want the card to go. Neither destination automatically has precedence and they happen at the same time.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2015, 10:24:15 am »
0

My current thought is that any when-gain that changes the destination of a card (as long as you actually end up getting it into your possession, and not, say, trashing it) is just rerouting it; the card doesn't visit where it was trying to go.  So to me, gain destinations should be the only exception to lose-track (provided it doesn't get covered up in the meantime).

I would defer to Donald X, though, of course.
I'm not quite sure what I'm being asked. "No visiting" is a real thing, Transmogrify's gain does not visit the discard pile, it goes straight to your hand. It is not trying to have a novel phrasing, just to be phrased well.

I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)

I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2015, 10:25:32 am »
0

I think what you're being asked is, when you gain-and-topdeck something with Royal Seal or Watchtower does it visit the discard pile? I'm... pretty sure you've answered yes to this question elsewhere.
Royal Seal and Watchtower move an already-gained card (if they can find it, which normally they can, but Border Village and Inn can mess with that).

Nomad Camp is not already-gained because I didn't think anyone would ever play it like that and at the same time did not want a convoluted wording for it.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2015, 10:26:11 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2015, 10:27:19 am »
+5

This is surprising. Why doesn't it say "putting it in your hand", like Explorer and Torturer do?
Because after phrasing the card there wasn't a moment when I thought "oh hey this should match Explorer or people will be asking me if I meant anything by the difference in wording."
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2015, 10:28:00 am »
+2

Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify.  Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.

Sweet!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2015, 10:29:05 am »
0

I think the question boils down to when there are multiple "on gain"-like effects which change the destination of the card, what happens? The specific example is that if you use Transmogrify to get a Noble Brigand, where does the Noble Brigand end up? In your hand? On your deck? Player's choice? (Answered as "Player's Choice" before I finished posting this)

I believe that "would gain" effects resolve earlier, so you could transmogrify a shelter into an estate, reveal a trader, and put a silver into your hand. (Hmmm, that would imply you could use Transmogrify to trash an overgrown estate, draw a trader as part of the when trashed effect, gain an estate, reveal the trader, and gain a silver instead, into your hand).
Nomad Camp not Noble Brigand; Noble Brigand would end up in your hand!

Trader replaces both "what is being gained" and "where does it go." If you Transmogrify a Shelter into an Estate and reveal Trader, the Silver goes to your discard pile.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2015, 10:34:02 am »
0

Okay, so, Transmogrify to gain a Nomad Camp, choosing to put it in your hand with Transmogrify.  Reveal a Watchtower to move it to the top of your deck.

Sweet!

LOL.. best combo ever!
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2015, 10:35:34 am »
+1

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)

* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit.  (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)

* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of.  (Watchtower, Royal Seal)

Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?

Man, lots of italics.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #139 on: April 01, 2015, 10:38:01 am »
+2

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)


This isn't really correct. Nomad Camp is NOT a "when-gain" effect. It's just worded that way, confusingly. Though there's not a really good wording for it, it would be more accurate if it said "Nomad Camp is gained to the top of your deck." It's not something that triggers on-gain.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2015, 10:39:57 am »
+1

I kind of think Nomad Camp should just have a below-line.  It's something that's always in effect and not a result of the card doing stuff.

...
--------------
This card is gained to the top of your deck.

Edit: Or, maybe word it better so it doesn't sound like you're continuously gaining it.  "Gaining this card puts it on top of your deck."  I dunno, something like that.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:47:37 am by Witherweaver »
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Watno

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2015, 10:42:15 am »
0

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #142 on: April 01, 2015, 11:06:34 am »
+2

Okay, let me see if I can break this down:

* A card that has a when-gain effect with a different gain destination does not visit.  (Nomad Camp)

* A card that gains another card and puts it somewhere else does not make that card visit.  (Transmogrify, Explorer, Mine, Armory)

* A card that does something when something else is gained does so after that card is gained, and the gained card does visit, and can be lost track of.  (Watchtower, Royal Seal)

Just to check, if I gain a Nomad Camp from a person I'm Possessing (a would gain effect), that NC goes on the top of my deck, right?

Man, lots of italics.
Nomad Camp on a Possession turn goes to the gaining player's deck top.

The distinction is that Watchtower and Royal Seal make something else happen ahead of moving the card (in both cases, a decision; Watchtower also is revealed). The game has to be in some state when that something else happens, and given the phrasings, the gain has happened already.

Nomad Camp Explorer etc. don't do anything else and again my feeling was that no-one would physically put the card somewhere else first and I didn't want to say "the gain destination for that card is your hand" or some such.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #143 on: April 01, 2015, 11:55:24 am »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

joel88s

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #144 on: April 01, 2015, 01:11:36 pm »
+1

What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
What about Verklärung for a German translation?  I'm in an orchestra playing Strauss's Tod und Verklärung at the moment.

No. Verklärung is when you tell people that something is better than it looks, or not as bad as it sounds. It doesn't actually change things.

I love your succinct explanation. But words often mean more than one thing, and this is a different meaning of Verklärung. As any bassoonist knows, Tod und Verklärung is Death and Transfiguration, and transfiguration is a certainly change of state, though a spiritual rather than grotesque one.

I have never heard this word used in any other way, but to be fair I haven't heard it used much at all.
Well, the piece is 100 years old, so the usage may well be as well. And it's true people don't tend to walk around saying, "Gee, I'm sure feeling transfigured today!"
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Watno

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2015, 08:44:15 am »
0

Thinking abou this a bit, I noticed that relying on Transmogrify for engine reliability can really go wrong once piles are emptying.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2015, 09:00:09 am »
0

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2015, 12:07:01 pm »
+1

I just realized the guy who shared the Transmogrify preview on BGG is Eric J Carter, the artist for Guide.  Apparently he's also a Dominion nut like we all are?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 12:08:23 pm by werothegreat »
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crlundy

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2015, 12:13:56 pm »
0

It's also a chance for him to share his work.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2015, 01:19:57 pm »
+1

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.

No, less. The card I am getting rid of can cost less than the card I am getting. My sentence is probably real confusing, but that's what it says.

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #150 on: April 02, 2015, 02:08:05 pm »
+3

This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.

No, less. The card I am getting rid of can cost less than the card I am getting. My sentence is probably real confusing, but that's what it says.
Maybe it needs more commas?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #151 on: April 02, 2015, 02:54:16 pm »
+1

I almost typed that like ten times, then decided to restrain myself from AdamH's benefit. Alas.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #152 on: April 03, 2015, 04:50:53 pm »
0

Yep, probably worth $4.  Sure, Remodel gives you an extra $ in value if you want it, but it's terminal and you don't get to save it for later.  Should be a good one.
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Grujah

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #153 on: April 03, 2015, 10:55:37 pm »
+1

I'm disappointed the art isn't an upside down cardboard box.

That was Donald's prototype art.
So if you rotate Transmogrify 90 degrees then it becomes Duplicate?

So, Time Machine should be confirmed then as well.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #154 on: April 28, 2015, 01:53:47 am »
0

Now that I've actually played this, wow... This would be worth $4 even if the gained card didn't go in your hand.  Without that, it's basically an Upgrade that, instead of acting right now, acts any turn except for right now.  (Ok, it would also be -1 card in that case overall, but the fact that it's non-terminal is the big deal)

Without the last line, this would be one of those rare $4 cards that actually feels good.  With the last line, this is, like, Jack of All Trades kind of good.

(I should probably leave open the possibility that it shines especially brightly in the suggested Dark Ages game with Rats and reserve judgment, but... nah, this is a power card.  Wait one turn for an Upgrade-into-hand?  And it *can't whiff*? Too good.)

(I should probably be mad, but I'm not.  I kind of like TfB cards.  I can't help it.  I sometimes lose games by buying too many Upgrades, but this card is actually a power card and not a n00b-trap finesse card.)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 01:55:12 am by Minotaur »
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #155 on: April 28, 2015, 08:59:14 am »
0

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #156 on: April 28, 2015, 12:03:05 pm »
0

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.

I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away.  This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...

But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad.  Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns.  Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #157 on: April 28, 2015, 12:20:24 pm »
+4

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.

I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away.  This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...

But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad.  Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns.  Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...

Upgrade can trash Copper, Curses and Ruins without gaining another junk card.  Transmogrify can't.
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #158 on: April 28, 2015, 03:54:43 pm »
0

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.

I guess I should play it in a game without Rats before I get carried away.  This card is probably THE Rats synergy card of all time, so there's that...

But still, it makes Upgrade look really bad.  Upgrade reduces this hand by 1, but doesn't let you decide when you draw the card, and doesn't let you turn $5+ cards into Duchies in the final turns.  Upgrade can win if Transmogrify would miss a shuffle, but that's about it...

Upgrade can trash Copper, Curses and Ruins without gaining another junk card.  Transmogrify can't.

That's true.  Junk Dealer is superior, but beggars don't get to choose.  I also forgot that in an engine, Upgrade can have a lot more to choose from where Transmogrify will miss out on a lot.

So Upgrade is a better trasher, but Transmogrify is stronger on the benefit side.  On a rare board with Transmog, Upgrade, and Junk Dealer, though, it would be really hard to justify Upgrade.
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Asper

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #159 on: April 29, 2015, 01:54:45 pm »
+5

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.

But... it won't give me the Hero i need, nor the one i deserve :(
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Minotaur

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #160 on: April 29, 2015, 03:42:06 pm »
0

Well, all TfB cards love Rats.  But Transmogrify can't really do anything with Coppers - he's not a "trasher" in the sense that he clears out junk, he makes sure you have exactly what you need in your hand.

But... it won't give me the Hero i need, nor the one i deserve :(

It can give you the Page the need.  You must provide your own patience.  Then you will get the Champion and/or Hero you deserve.
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pacovf

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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #161 on: April 29, 2015, 05:18:40 pm »
+5

You might need to hold out until the end of the night, though.
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Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« Reply #162 on: April 29, 2015, 07:15:13 pm »
+1

You might need to hold out until the end of the night, though.
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