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Author Topic: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman  (Read 14512 times)

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werothegreat

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CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« on: March 31, 2015, 11:10:02 am »
+7

You didn't think we'd skip a week just because previews were going on, did you?  We've only just started!  This week's card is... Talisman!


To start off the discussion:

* What decks like Talisman?
* Would you ever open Talisman?
* How does Talisman compare to Duplicate? (hypothesize away!)
* Would you consider Talisman a good card?  Why or why not?
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nate_w

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 11:51:33 am »
+2

In my mind, talisman is in a similar category as workshop and ironworks.  Great for gaining multiple copies of cheap cards.  Unlike the other two, it isn't played as an action and can't gain victory cards. 

It's good in decks where you want a bunch of cheap non-victory cards, but in general this is not what you want, and I find myself ignoring it on most boards.  If there are some very nice villages and cheap draw (Smithy, Envoy, maybe even Ironmonger), that I will be able to build an engine out of, Talisman can be a nice early buy to add components quickly.  In a vineyards game, it can be very powerful for gaining extra actions.  You might think a gardens deck would like talismans, but because it can't gain extra gardens, I think talisman is in general a very weak gardens enabler (at least by itself).

Talisman can, in rare situations, combo with bridge/highway/quarry to gain multiple copies of strong cards (more highways, Grand markets, etc).  Again though, since it can't be used to gain green cards, at some point it just becomes a copper.  If there are trash for benefit cards around, talisman can be more appealing if there are early game uses for it because you don't need to keep it around in the late game.

I don't consider talisman a particularly good card (by good card I mean a card that I would want in a large number of situations), but in some situations it can be strong. 

I don't foresee duplicate being used in a similar way to talisman at all.  Duplicate would make a very slow small-card gainer, not providing the speed duplicate brings to the engine player.  I foresee duplicate being primarily used as large engine component gainers and in megaturns where you are turning in duplicates for duchies/provinces (when bridge and highway are around).
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 11:53:25 am by nate_w »
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Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 11:54:41 am »
0

I often misbuy it thinking it's Quarry.  I tend not to realize until I play it a couple times~

I guess the obvious use is spammable <$4s? Like Ironmonger.  Or when having a lot of Villages is important, or generally things where you want to win splits (Fool's Gold).  Synnergy with Highway/Bridge.

It can be annoying to have it when you just want to gain one of something, if it needs to be played to get to that price point.  But that's maybe not so common, or if it is then maybe you shouldn't have gone for Talisman in the first place.

PPE~
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LastFootnote

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 11:57:07 am »
+2

If I buy Talisman, usually it's as an opening (unless I'm buying a cost-reducer first instead). I will often open with Talisman if there's at least one $4 engine component I want (Caravan, Ironmonger, any cheap Village, Smithy, etc.). I often forget that it works with cheap Peddlers. I think it's easy to forget that Talisman can duplicate Silver; while that's not normally what you want with your Talisman, it can be useful to do once or twice either for an early economy boost or a late one when you're overdrawing your deck.
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werothegreat

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 11:58:12 am »
0

I think it's easy to forget that Talisman can duplicate Silver; while that's not normally what you want with your Talisman, it can be useful to do once or twice either for an early economy boost or a late one when you're overdrawing your deck.

Talisman is a fairly decent Feodum enabler, if I remember correctly.
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Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 11:59:08 am »
0

I think we discussed once that it's not a Gardens enabler.  But is it a valuable support in a Gardens game?
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Mr Anderson

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 12:10:58 pm »
0

* What decks like Talisman?

Engines that need <4$ cards, Slogs maybe to get a lot of Silver if there is no better alternative.

* Would you ever open Talisman?

Yes, when I need a lot of <4$ cards. I think when Talisman is good you need to open with it to get the extra gains as soon as possible.

* How does Talisman compare to Duplicate? (hypothesize away!)

I think Talisman is much weaker. Duplicate is not limited to Treasures and Actions so it can gain extra Duchies, it is not limited to buys so you can duplicate HoP gains or Border Village gains (probably only relevant when you buy the last Border Village). You can chose when to duplicate your gain and do not need to play Duplicate the turn you want to use it. However, Talisman is non terminal and it gives a (very weak) bonus when you play it, additionally you can use it to gain extra cards multiple times per turn if you have +buy.

* Would you consider Talisman a good card?  Why or why not?
I consider Talisman a weaker card as it is very board dependent. Usually you need to get 5$ cards and Talisman does not help with that at all. But at certain boards it is a good card, but you usually only want one.

That being said, with cost reducers Talisman can be used to gain 2 $5+ actions or treasures, which can be really nice. That could help to set up a bridge megaturn.
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qmech

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 12:51:57 pm »
+2

Was completely convinced this was today's bonus preview thread.  Now that I'm here:

Talisman, Talisman...

Like all gainers of cheap cards, you have to consider the fact that you could just have bought one of the cheap cards instead.  You don't start to get value until you use it twice, and you've given up at least one play of a card that was presumably good enough for you to want it anyway, and added a Copper to your deck.

Has a tendency to come up in $7 hands and make you sad.
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DG

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 01:18:53 pm »
+6

If you open with talisman, make sure you there is a good three cost card as well as good four cost cards.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 06:58:54 am »
+1

Out of all the workshop variants, I am pretty sure this is the one I buy the least.
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ehunt

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 07:45:14 am »
+2

Out of all the workshop variants, I am pretty sure this is the one I buy the least.

Talisman is just a straight up bad card. I think the best is to directly compare it to workshop (itself a mediocre card): its biggest advantage over workshop is that it doesn't take up an action. Now, that usually sounds like a big advantage, but it's less important in precisely the kinds of decks where you want a workshop variant. There are two situations where you're picking up workshop: engine decks where you plan to have billions of actions, and gardens. For the first, the action doesn't matter as much, and Talisman work at all for the second (in practice you'd rather have a talisman than nothing in a gardens rush, but there's no reasonable time to grab it).

One more advantage that exists in theory but not in practice-- if you don't want to workshop something this turn, then it'd be better to have a copper in hand than a workshop. But of course, if these are the turns that you're drawing your [workshop/talisman] then it wasn't a great buy.

There is one significant advantage that I see, which is that Talisman works better with +buy, and indeed with, say, quarry and grand market (both from the same set as Talisman) it does seem like there are valid reasons to take talisman over workshop. But these are pretty situational. (I'm sure there are other combos along the same lines.)

Now consider the advantages of workshop over talisman:
-workshop can gain cards that you want to use this turn, once you have your engine going.
-workshop costs 1 less
-workshop gains green cards
-if you only want one copy of whatever card you're grabbing, you can use your buy on something else.
-workshop works as virtual +buy on turns where you want an expensive card. talisman forces you to choose between 1 gold or 2 caravans.

The debate is like shooting fish in a barrel: workshop > talisman. And even if you think it's a closer debate than I do, remember, workshop just isn't very good.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 07:51:31 am by ehunt »
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pubby

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 07:54:40 am »
+2

Gaining a Talisman late in the game can sometimes allow you to 3-pile your opponent. It's so much stronger as a closer than an opener.
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brokoli

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 09:02:53 am »
+10

CARD OF THE WEAK*
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jsh357

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 09:43:04 am »
+2

I don't see Talisman as all that weak, just situational.  It has narrow usages, yes, with with the help of +Buy and cheap actions, it gives you excellent pile control at lategame.  It's usually not a good opener (since $5 tends to be so important) but it can be on par with Stonemason for ending games in the right situation.

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brokoli

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 09:58:06 am »
+1

I was doing that for the pun :P
Seriously though, I like talisman. As an opener, it shines when there are good spammable $3 and for $4, and no particularly good $5 (I mean, not those $5 -often attacks- you want as soon as possible). I like its synergy with caravan : caravan is not such a good opener because of the duration-that-miss-the-reshuffle thing.
The fact it doesn't take up an action is relevant for the opening. Talisman/Oracle is usually better than Workshop/Oracle or other workshop variants, for instance. Then you maybe prefer Oracle/Silver over Oracle/Talisman, of course, depends on the board.

Actually, Talisman is not hard to summarize : outside the obvious cost reductions combos, the two very important things to look for to make talisman good are : 1) good </= $4 cards and 2) ways to buy multiple engine components each turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2015, 11:57:17 am »
+3

I've been crushed by not buying as many Talismans as my opponent in a Quarry + Grand Market game.
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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2015, 12:06:23 pm »
+3

Card is weak. It's a workshop variant. Treasure is good. But usually you will want to buy something costing 5+, and then, this is a copper you have spent 4 on. I mean, really, you need to spend multiple buys with this on those cheap cards for it to not have been better just buying them to start with. Can be very nice with cost-reducers. It has its place, but that niche is small.

Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 12:08:05 pm »
0

Also, specifically prohibits you from gaining extra Victory cards.  No Scout synergy.
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Chris is me

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2015, 01:39:16 pm »
+1

I'll have more to say later, but one thing I wanted to say before I forgot. Talisman is pretty weak most of the time, but one facet of Talisman people don't take advantage enough is that it stacks well with itself. If you feel a need to buy lots of cheap 2-3 cost cards in particular, multiple Talisman can help with that a lot more than you'd expect.

I've found it most useful on good boards for Vineyard, Feodum, and to a lesser extent Gardens. It gets you mileage out of Highway even without strong +Buy on the board. It's not as bad as it looks, but it's not great either.

Games where you're rushing a cheap action, the Peddler pile, or a pricier action with Quarry in play can be decided by who bought Talisman sooner.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 01:40:45 pm by Chris is me »
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Dingan

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2015, 03:06:42 pm »
0

Yeah, not much to discuss here.  Like all other cards, it's usefullness depends on what else is in the kingdom.  It tends to synergize in boards where you want a lot of low-cost cards (Ironmonger, Wishing Well, Peddler, Feodum/Silver, etc.), there is no rush for $5 cards (I can't imagine opening Talisman over Silver when, say, Cultist is in the kingdom), and there is some source of multi-buy.  It can give you pile control.  It can be a Copper to you.  It can make you gain 2 of something when you only want 1.  It can make hitting $5 before your second reshuffle less probable.  It can be something to trash with Forager.  It can be something to discard when Militia'd.  Blah, blah, blah.

It can be great, neutral, or bad.  Depends on the board.  It's probably bad more often than it's great, which is why people say it's a weak card.  But it can be great.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 03:10:42 pm by Dingan »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2015, 06:49:29 pm »
+4

Talisman sucks and people saying it isn't weak are crazy.
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enfynet

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2015, 10:02:36 pm »
+2

Also, specifically prohibits you from gaining extra Victory cards.  No Scout synergy.
But you can gain lots of Scouts!
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Grujah

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2015, 10:50:11 pm »
0

How good would it be with Magpie?
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liopoil

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2015, 10:55:49 pm »
+2

How good would it be with Magpie?
Still bad. Could just be a Magpie. That's usually the problem. It takes two plays to even begin to make up for the opportunity cost, and by then you've already wasted a lot of time and have played an extra copper twice.
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Witherweaver

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Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #2: Talisman
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2015, 11:42:13 pm »
0

Talisman sucks and people saying it isn't weak are crazy.

I already said it didn't combo with Scout.  The rest is obviously implied.
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