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Author Topic: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm  (Read 120139 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #125 on: March 31, 2015, 12:00:26 pm »
+1

I don't foresee this comma discussion going anywhere. So hey, how about these great new cards?

I underbuy Duplicate and am generally in the camp that thinks it looks weak. You can call it on the turn you play it, but it hurts your buying power by being a dead terminal that turn. And it can miss a shuffle while you're waiting for it to really pay off. But the potential benefit from Duplicate is great, even without cost reducers. I particularly like calling multiple Duplicates on the same gain.

On one hand, I understand why people are talking about reserves missing the shuffle as a drawback; it means that you'll play them less than once per shuffle throughout the game. But especially for the terminals, I had thought of "missing the shuffle" as almost a good thing, because it's a card that you don't want in your deck. You want it on the reserve mat. While it's not in your deck, you're not drawing it, so you're drawing cards that are more helpful instead. It's sitting there, not taking up room in your deck, waiting for the time when it's actually good to use.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #126 on: March 31, 2015, 12:05:47 pm »
+2

  Wharf doesn't resolve until I've gotten my +2 Cards/+1 Buy on my next turn.

This is wrong. Wharf is completely resolved right after you play it. The thing it does when it resolves is to give you 2 cards and a buy now, and to give you 2 cards and a buy at the start of your next turn. It's not still being resolved on your next turn.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Think of it like this: the game has these event-triggered "thingies" that say "When X happens, do Y."

Sometimes, one of those thingies lives on a card and it's always there.  Like with Border Village.  "When you gain this, gain something cheaper."  That's easy.

But, sometimes, something creates one of those thingies out of thin air, and, since the thingy doesn't live on a card, it kinda floats around waiting to be triggered. That's what Wharf does.  When you play it, it gives you +2 Cards and +1 Buy, then it creates a floating thingy that says, "At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards and +1 Buy."  Then Wharf is done; it's resolved (and you can Coin of the Realm it), but the thingy it made is still floating around. Later, an event (the start of your next turn) makes that floating thingy trigger (giving you +2 Cards and +1 Buy).  And, since that event can only happen once (you only have one "next" turn), the thingy can't trigger anymore, so it's effectively gone.

(That's why duration cards usually stay out, by the way: as a courtesy to remind you that they made an invisible floating thingy that's still hanging around waiting to be taken care of.)

Prince also makes one of those floating thingies.  But, unlike Wharf's thingy, Prince's thingy triggers on an event that can recur (the start of each of your turns), so it sticks around (potentially) forever.  But, similar to the Wharf case, Prince was finished resolving after he initially created the perpetual thingy, so you can Coin of the Realm him, too.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #127 on: March 31, 2015, 12:10:27 pm »
0

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

Also wondering about this. I can see good arguments being made for either case.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #128 on: March 31, 2015, 12:13:54 pm »
+2

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #129 on: March 31, 2015, 12:16:23 pm »
0

Was there any thought to making the move to the Tavern mat optional?  I could only think of pretty rare edge cases where you wouldn't want to place it. (You, uh.. need to Prince Guide, which is the only Cantrip on the board, because there are no villages on the board?)
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #130 on: March 31, 2015, 12:20:39 pm »
+1

hmm

Im interested in the way Goko are going to implement Duplicate. It's going to be a nightmare if the game asks you every time you gain something (trash Urhin style)

Edit:
I just hope that goko is nice to us and does not ask us after every action if we want to use our coin of the realm

Yeah, even more frustrating with that.
Well we have discussed this very issue. For Coin I believe they will handle it similarly to how isotropic does, which is, there's a thing you can click on to use the Coin, only there when you can do it. That works great (there is a corner case for Peddler).  For Duplicate I don't think you can do better than ask after each gain.

Am I crazy? It seems to me like the most logical way for you to activate a reserve card would be for you to click on the tavern mat and then click on the card you want (or maybe an arrow that appears on the bottom right of the card, like the "+ icon" that appears for buying or gaining) in order to activate it when you want to activate it. That would work fine for duplicate in 90% of the cases. No, that doesn't work for cursing attacks. It also doesn't quite work for death cart, since you would have to gain ruins one at a time and could only duplicate them if the next ruin is the same kind. For those cases, the game could offer you a prompt to immediately use your duplicate, but at least then you're not being asked whether to use it on every single gain while you have one in your deck.

However it plays out, it will be funny and a little bit degrading in Mountebank games when it prompts you twice every time you get attacked. Would you like to duplicate that curse? No? Oh, what about this copper?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:22:59 pm by iguanaiguana »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2015, 12:21:38 pm »
+1

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

I think both answers are reasonable. To argue for the other one; Guide wasn't on your Tavern Mat at the start of your turn. So when the list of things that happen at "start of turn" is made, Guide isn't on that list.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #132 on: March 31, 2015, 12:24:19 pm »
+5

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

I think both answers are reasonable. To argue for the other one; Guide wasn't on your Tavern Mat at the start of your turn. So when the list of things that happen at "start of turn" is made, Guide isn't on that list.

That's not how Dominion works, though. Your Moat may not be in your hand when somebody plays an Attack card, but if you put one into your hand via Secret Chamber you can still reveal it afterward.

EDIT: Also, you never decide the complete order of simultaneous effects in Dominion before doing them. You do one, then decide which one to do next.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:25:20 pm by LastFootnote »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #133 on: March 31, 2015, 12:25:04 pm »
+3

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

Princeing a Guide works too, you just play the Guide once and then it goes on the Tavern Mat then Prince finishes doing it's thing and then you could call it immediately. The Prince is then stuck doing nothing.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #134 on: March 31, 2015, 12:25:41 pm »
0

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

I think both answers are reasonable. To argue for the other one; Guide wasn't on your Tavern Mat at the start of your turn. So when the list of things that happen at "start of turn" is made, Guide isn't on that list.

Hmm... Prince A, Prince B both set aside.

Resolve Prince A first, say A is Herald.  Play Herald, play Guide.  Now Guide is on your Tavern mat.  You are not done resolving "The start of your turn", so why couldn't you do anything happening at the start of your turn?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #135 on: March 31, 2015, 12:26:43 pm »
0

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

Princeing a Guide works too, you just play the Guide once and then it goes on the Tavern Mat then Prince finishes doing it's thing and then you could call it immediately. The Prince is then stuck doing nothing.

Well, only the turn after you set it aside.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #136 on: March 31, 2015, 12:27:04 pm »
+1

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

Princeing a Guide works too, you just play the Guide once and then it goes on the Tavern Mat then Prince finishes doing it's thing and then you could call it immediately. The Prince is then stuck doing nothing.

That isn't the Prince "working".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #137 on: March 31, 2015, 12:27:18 pm »
0

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

I think both answers are reasonable. To argue for the other one; Guide wasn't on your Tavern Mat at the start of your turn. So when the list of things that happen at "start of turn" is made, Guide isn't on that list.

That's not how Dominion works, though. Your Moat may not be in your hand when somebody plays an Attack card, but if you put one into your hand via Secret Chamber you can still reveal it afterward.

EDIT: Also, you never decide the complete order of simultaneous effects in Dominion before doing them. You do one, then decide which one to do next.

Good call, I'm convinced.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #138 on: March 31, 2015, 12:27:26 pm »
+4

Was there any thought to making the move to the Tavern mat optional?  I could only think of pretty rare edge cases where you wouldn't want to place it. (You, uh.. need to Prince Guide, which is the only Cantrip on the board, because there are no villages on the board?)
Probably not. In general I avoid giving people a decision that will almost always go one way. Sometimes other factors push for it to be a decision anyway (e.g. "you may" is shorter than "or reveal a hand with no somethings").
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2015, 12:30:09 pm »
+4

Am I crazy? It seems to me like the most logical way for you to activate a reserve card would be for you to click on the tavern mat and then click on the card you want (or maybe an arrow that appears on the bottom right of the card, like the "+ icon" that appears for buying or gaining) in order to activate it when you want to activate it. That would work fine for duplicate in 90% of the cases. No, that doesn't work for cursing attacks. It also doesn't quite work for death cart, since you would have to gain ruins one at a time and could only duplicate them if the next ruin is the same kind. For those cases, the game could offer you a prompt to immediately use your duplicate, but at least then you're not being asked whether to use it on every single gain while you have one in your deck.
I have one buy, I buy Lab. If the program doesn't pause to let me consider the question of Duplicating or not, then it's on to the next player's turn. So, really, it's no good just letting you click, we have to stop and ask. Just letting you click works for some of them, including Guide and Coin, but not Duplicate.
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2015, 12:32:18 pm »
0

Am I crazy? It seems to me like the most logical way for you to activate a reserve card would be for you to click on the tavern mat and then click on the card you want (or maybe an arrow that appears on the bottom right of the card, like the "+ icon" that appears for buying or gaining) in order to activate it when you want to activate it. That would work fine for duplicate in 90% of the cases. No, that doesn't work for cursing attacks. It also doesn't quite work for death cart, since you would have to gain ruins one at a time and could only duplicate them if the next ruin is the same kind. For those cases, the game could offer you a prompt to immediately use your duplicate, but at least then you're not being asked whether to use it on every single gain while you have one in your deck.
I have one buy, I buy Lab. If the program doesn't pause to let me consider the question of Duplicating or not, then it's on to the next player's turn. So, really, it's no good just letting you click, we have to stop and ask. Just letting you click works for some of them, including Guide and Coin, but not Duplicate.

Opponent plays Witch
*little blue + appears on Curse*
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #141 on: March 31, 2015, 12:33:13 pm »
+1

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

Princeing a Guide works too, you just play the Guide once and then it goes on the Tavern Mat then Prince finishes doing it's thing and then you could call it immediately. The Prince is then stuck doing nothing.

That isn't the Prince "working".

It is working in the sense that it does what market squire was asking about, which is all I'm thinking of.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #142 on: March 31, 2015, 12:33:33 pm »
+5

Was surprised we were on the third page already.  Should have guessed comma's were involved.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #143 on: March 31, 2015, 12:38:32 pm »
+11

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #144 on: March 31, 2015, 12:38:51 pm »
0

The "when" clause is parenthetical.  The "to gain blah blah" clause is parenthetical.  "You may call this." is a complete sentence with a subject and verb and no hanging prepositions, that's the only non-parenthetical part left.

Parenthetical clauses don't really have to be grammatically correct, they can hang prepositions or whatever it is about them that upsets you.  So it works.  To the best of my understanding of grammer.
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Robz888

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #145 on: March 31, 2015, 12:48:41 pm »
+9

And now, the moment you have all been waiting for, again (since yesterday).

How Do These Cards Combo With Scout?

Guide says "At the start of your turn, you may call this, to discard your hand and draw 5 cards." So most of the time, you will be playing either Engine or Big Money, and either way, you will want to call Guide to discard your hand until you get to a hand with at least 3 Scouts. For this reason, Guide gets progressively better when stacked... more Guides, more opportunities to find Scout, etc.

As for Duplicate, there's an important thing you need to know (pro players get this, newbies might not). You can gain a card costing UP to $6. It doesn't HAVE to cost $6. Which means you can gain Scout right off the bat. A lot of players think you have to play 2 Highways or 2 Bridges first, but no. Just gain the second Scout. This combos with strong trashing, so you can get rid of your non-Scout cards.

Coin of the Realm makes for a strong combo with Scout. If you open this/Scout, and then buy nothing but Treasures, you're likely to get half the Provinces in 16-20 Turns. Your opponent really has to race you, if you do this.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #146 on: March 31, 2015, 12:49:05 pm »
0

Parenthetical clauses don't really have to be grammatically correct

I don't know what you mean by this. Of course they do.

Your description of the overall structure of the "you may call this" sentence is spot-on, though.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #147 on: March 31, 2015, 12:55:58 pm »
+1

don't really have to be grammatically correct... To the best of my understanding of grammer.

Want to post this in out of context thread, but it would cause an argument :(
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #148 on: March 31, 2015, 12:57:16 pm »
0

"Start of your turn"
How does Guide interact with Durations and Prince?
Do I resolve Guide before or after Tactician draw for example? (After would be a poor choice - swapping 10 for 5, but cleaning up the first five and then drawing another five for Tactician would be nice.)

You choose!

Can you use Guide's mulligan ability in the exact turn you played via Prince?
(Okay, if you want something more realistic: via a Princed Throne Room/ Herald)

The only reasonable answer is yes. Princeing a Guide doesn't work, but if a Guide got played by a Princed card, you'd be able to call that Guide after the Princed card resolved (or after doing some other start-of-turn effects).

I think both answers are reasonable. To argue for the other one; Guide wasn't on your Tavern Mat at the start of your turn. So when the list of things that happen at "start of turn" is made, Guide isn't on that list.

That's not how Dominion works, though. Your Moat may not be in your hand when somebody plays an Attack card, but if you put one into your hand via Secret Chamber you can still reveal it afterward.

EDIT: Also, you never decide the complete order of simultaneous effects in Dominion before doing them. You do one, then decide which one to do next.

So my understanding of 'At the start of your turn...' was gather up all the supplies you need to start your turn (Tactician draw, durations, guide redraw, etc.) then when you do Prince's 'start of your turn' you play a card for free. Once you've played a card you are no longer at the start of your turn, but now are in the Action phase. Therefore, I think that you should not be able to call the Guide that you just played via Prince and placed onto the Tavern mat into play because you've played a card, even when playing that card was at the start of your turn. Prince's 'start of your turn' would be the last thing you do before your turn starts, wouldn't it?

But really, the real question here is the lose-track rule. When I play this Guide via prince I place it on the Tavern mat. I have failed to set it aside, so I have to stop playing it with Prince now. When I call my Guide into play, I am not playing it, and so therefore cannot set it aside again with my Prince when I discard it from play, I just have to discard it normally right?

EDIT: I guess it's not the lose-track rule, but simply resolving the instructions on the Prince card. If I am foolish enough to play a Guide with my Prince, unless I immediately call that Guide into play, I can no longer set aside that Guide back to my Prince at the end of my turn.
Seems odd to even want to Prince anything you would only get to play one time.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:28:28 pm by bedlam »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #149 on: March 31, 2015, 12:59:14 pm »
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So my understanding of 'At the start of your turn...' was gather up all the supplies you need to start your turn (Tactician draw, durations, guide redraw, etc.) then when you do Prince's 'start of your turn' you play a card for free. Once you've played a card you are no longer at the start of your turn, but now are in the Action phase. Therefore, I think that you should not be able to call the Guide that you just played via Prince and placed onto the Tavern mat into play because you've played a card, even when playing that card was at the start of your turn. Prince's 'start of your turn' would be the last thing you do before your turn starts, wouldn't it?

But really, the real question here is the lose-track rule. When I play this Guide via prince I place it on the Tavern mat. I have failed to set it aside, so I have to stop playing it with Prince now. When I call my Guide into play, I am not playing it, and so therefore cannot set it aside again with my Prince when I discard it from play, I just have to discard it normally right?

Seems odd to even want to Prince anything you would only get to play one time.

See my example of two Princes.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:03:28 pm by Witherweaver »
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