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Author Topic: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm  (Read 120153 times)

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markusin

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2015, 10:39:21 am »
+4

hmm

Im interested in the way Goko are going to implement Duplicate. It's going to be a nightmare if the game asks you every time you gain something (trash Urhin style)

Edit:
I just hope that goko is nice to us and does not ask us after every action if we want to use our coin of the realm

Yeah, even more frustrating with that.
Well we have discussed this very issue. For Coin I believe they will handle it similarly to how isotropic does, which is, there's a thing you can click on to use the Coin, only there when you can do it. That works great (there is a corner case for Peddler).  For Duplicate I don't think you can do better than ask after each gain.

Why is it "Directly after resolving an Action" instead of "During your Action phase"?

And, is there an official definition for "resolving an Action"? I assume it implies playing an Action, but since "Action" also means "Action card", I can see arguments being made that resolving the reaction of a Horse Traders - which is an Action (card) - could be called resolving an Action.
Trolling those Diadem hands with no Action cards to play.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2015, 10:40:15 am »
+1

You can Throne Room island to store a total of 3 cards on the Island mat, so Throne Rooming Guide is gonna draw you two cards.

The interaction with calling will probably be more obvious with a rulebook that clarifies that the ability to call the card is on the basis of it being physically on the Tavern mat, not because you played it. 
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2015, 10:41:34 am »
+1

Oh man, that art on Duplicate.  Stellar.  Guide's not bad either!  Coin of the Realm, well, it's some coins.  What more do you want, really?

Beard count is still zero.  Unless that guy on Duplicate has one, but it'd be pretty small.

The statues have mustaches, though.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2015, 10:41:55 am »
+1

Just to clarify:

If I Throne Room Guide, I do not get two chances to mulligan on my next turn?  Because there's still only one copy to call?

Moreover, would I get +2 cards, +2 actions?
I would assume not, as Throne Room plays it once, then tries to play it again but can't find it because it's on the mat.

Wrong. Lose track doesn't apply to playing cards, only to moving them. If you Throne a Feast you still play it twice even though it's in the trash after the first time. So the second time it's played, you get +1 card +1 action, and then it fails to move to the Tavern, but it's already there.

Huh?  Isn't putting it on the mat exactly the "moving" contingency of lose track?  To me "Put" means "Move from In Play to On Mat".

Yes, which is why it fails to put it on the mat the second time.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2015, 10:42:03 am »
+6

Why is it "Directly after resolving an Action" instead of "During your Action phase"?

And, is there an official definition for "resolving an Action"? I assume it implies playing an Action, but since "Action" also means "Action card", I can see arguments being made that resolving the reaction of a Horse Traders - which is an Action (card) - could be called resolving an Action.
"During your Action phase" is too broad. "Any time" stuff tends to break in games with lots of interacting rules on cards.

Resolving an Action means resolving a played Action card. It doesn't work on reaction abilities.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2015, 10:43:28 am »
+1

Duplicate seems so-so, but gets around the issue of not being able to get something good the turn you play it because you can call it the next turn. I think I prefer having its effect lean towards the weaker side than the stronger side.

Not sure what you mean here; you can call it the same turn that you played it, no problem.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2015, 10:44:53 am »
0

I wonder wether there's an Action-Reserve that can be called when you play a card.
Then, when you TR it, you can play it (placing it on the Tavern), call it, ad then play and tavern it again.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2015, 10:44:59 am »
+1

Coin of the Realm... yes good, I'll take 500 please.

No really, there's nothing in Dominion that I hate more than terminal collision (at least nothing non-attack based). I have a feeling I'd overbuy those coinies.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2015, 10:45:40 am »
+1

Why is it "Directly after resolving an Action" instead of "During your Action phase"?

And, is there an official definition for "resolving an Action"? I assume it implies playing an Action, but since "Action" also means "Action card", I can see arguments being made that resolving the reaction of a Horse Traders - which is an Action (card) - could be called resolving an Action.
"During your Action phase" is too broad. "Any time" stuff tends to break in games with lots of interacting rules on cards.

Resolving an Action means resolving a played Action card. It doesn't work on reaction abilities.

I'm not really comfortable with "resolve" as a term - does that mean I have to wait until the second turn of a Duration card to call CotR?  Wharf doesn't resolve until I've gotten my +2 Cards/+1 Buy on my next turn.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2015, 10:46:43 am »
+3

hmm

Im interested in the way Goko are going to implement Duplicate. It's going to be a nightmare if the game asks you every time you gain something (trash Urhin style)

Edit:
I just hope that goko is nice to us and does not ask us after every action if we want to use our coin of the realm

Yeah, even more frustrating with that.
Well we have discussed this very issue. For Coin I believe they will handle it similarly to how isotropic does, which is, there's a thing you can click on to use the Coin, only there when you can do it. That works great (there is a corner case for Peddler).  For Duplicate I don't think you can do better than ask after each gain.

Why is it "Directly after resolving an Action" instead of "During your Action phase"?

And, is there an official definition for "resolving an Action"? I assume it implies playing an Action, but since "Action" also means "Action card", I can see arguments being made that resolving the reaction of a Horse Traders - which is an Action (card) - could be called resolving an Action.
He used "Directly after resolving an action" to make it clear that you can't draw three cards off Warehouse, call the coin, then discard three cards due to Warehouse.  You aren't finished resolving an action until you finish executing all of its text.

As an example of how this could matter, you could play Storyteller, use its ability to play a Venture, then reveal some cards and flip up a Bank.  The wording makes it clear that you can't say "Oh shi-" and call the coin so that you have more treasures in play when Bank resolves, you must call it directly after resolving an action, which with Storyteller would be the moment after you finished drawing cards.

Horse Traders is an Action that also happens to be a Reaction, those things aren't actually related at all, and functioning as a Reaction is not playing an Action.  Note that Fool's Gold and Tunnel are both Reactions, but not Actions, and no one has ever been confused about whether discarding Tunnel to an Oasis would be enough to activate their Conspirator or not.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2015, 10:47:11 am »
+2

hmm

Im interested in the way Goko are going to implement Duplicate. It's going to be a nightmare if the game asks you every time you gain something (trash Urhin style)

I think it's more likely we'll have a "Duplicate" button when you have them on your mat, after gaining a legal card.

And compare Duplicate to Talisman; it has a stronger gaining effect, but costs an Action and doesn't give $1.  But, it can be saved for any turn, and you can accumulate multiples.  You can also Duplicate Victory cards; two Highways, and a handful Tavern full of Duplicates, and you win!

Fixed that for you. A handful of Duplicates is pretty bad; you need to have been already playing them throughout the game.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2015, 10:47:53 am »
0

Just to clarify:

If I Throne Room Guide, I do not get two chances to mulligan on my next turn?  Because there's still only one copy to call?

Moreover, would I get +2 cards, +2 actions?
I would assume not, as Throne Room plays it once, then tries to play it again but can't find it because it's on the mat.

Wrong. Lose track doesn't apply to playing cards, only to moving them. If you Throne a Feast you still play it twice even though it's in the trash after the first time. So the second time it's played, you get +1 card +1 action, and then it fails to move to the Tavern, but it's already there.

Huh?  Isn't putting it on the mat exactly the "moving" contingency of lose track?  To me "Put" means "Move from In Play to On Mat".
Losing track of a card still allows you to play the card for all its effects and you do as many of them as you can. You do in fact lose track of the card when it's moved to the tavern mat, but you still get to play it a second time anyway. It's just that you can't move it to the Tavern mat a second time, because Guide is not in play where it is expected to be. This matters if there was an effect that was conditional on moving the card to the Tavern mat, but Guide has none.

Oh, right, this was my understanding, but I misread what you were responding to. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2015, 10:50:46 am »
+1

  Wharf doesn't resolve until I've gotten my +2 Cards/+1 Buy on my next turn.

This is wrong. Wharf is completely resolved right after you play it. The thing it does when it resolves is to give you 2 cards and a buy now, and to give you 2 cards and a buy at the start of your next turn. It's not still being resolved on your next turn.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2015, 10:51:31 am »
0

When I play a Reserve Card and put it on my Tavern mat, I guess they will not count as "in play" afterwards (relevant for peddler buys, or resolving horn of plenty)?

Will played Action Reserve Cards count as Played Actions for Conspirator? I think, they should...
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2015, 10:51:47 am »
0

Why is it "Directly after resolving an Action" instead of "During your Action phase"?

And, is there an official definition for "resolving an Action"? I assume it implies playing an Action, but since "Action" also means "Action card", I can see arguments being made that resolving the reaction of a Horse Traders - which is an Action (card) - could be called resolving an Action.
"During your Action phase" is too broad. "Any time" stuff tends to break in games with lots of interacting rules on cards.

Resolving an Action means resolving a played Action card. It doesn't work on reaction abilities.

I'm not really comfortable with "resolve" as a term - does that mean I have to wait until the second turn of a Duration card to call CotR?  Wharf doesn't resolve until I've gotten my +2 Cards/+1 Buy on my next turn.

I think you "resolve" setting up a future effect the turn that you play it. If you Procession a Duration it goes away and everything works fine because you completely resolved and set up your next turn effect already. I think staying in play is mostly just a convenient reminder. But in due time the rulebook will tell all.

Edit: Thanks, GendoIkari :)
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2015, 10:53:04 am »
+2

So, where does this put us on the whole mat thing.  What is the most mattastic game we can have?

Pirate Ship, Island, Trade Route, Tavern, Native Village am I forgetting something?
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markusin

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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2015, 10:53:08 am »
+1

Duplicate seems so-so, but gets around the issue of not being able to get something good the turn you play it because you can call it the next turn. I think I prefer having its effect lean towards the weaker side than the stronger side.

Not sure what you mean here; you can call it the same turn that you played it, no problem.
I mean, having to play a terminal that doesn't provide any coin or cards will probably put a dent on the buying power of the turn that card is played.

It could end up being that Duplicate is not worth getting without a good engine or at least a pseudo-engine to support it.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2015, 10:53:42 am »
0

  Wharf doesn't resolve until I've gotten my +2 Cards/+1 Buy on my next turn.

This is wrong. Wharf is completely resolved right after you play it. The thing it does when it resolves is to give you 2 cards and a buy now, and to give you 2 cards and a buy at the start of your next turn. It's not still being resolved on your next turn.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Anyway, thoughts on cards!

Really love the art on Guide - looks like a 90's era MTG card, almost.  As for its effect, definitely something I'd pick up with $3 and didn't want a Silver, but not something I want *lots* of - just a little something to ensure engine (or just general deck) reliability.

Duplicate, I feel, is more powerful than some of you are giving it credit for.

CotR is my favorite card from this set!  It's awesome!
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2015, 10:53:54 am »
+5

When I play a Reserve Card and put it on my Tavern mat, I guess they will not count as "in play" afterwards (relevant for peddler buys, or resolving horn of plenty)?

Correct.

Will played Action Reserve Cards count as Played Actions for Conspirator? I think, they should...

They count if you played them this turn, but not if you just called them this turn.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2015, 10:54:09 am »
0

When I play a Reserve Card and put it on my Tavern mat, I guess they will not count as "in play" afterwards (relevant for peddler buys, or resolving horn of plenty)?

Will played Action Reserve Cards count as Played Actions for Conspirator? I think, they should...

This was clarified:

Just to clarify:

If I Throne Room Guide, I do not get two chances to mulligan on my next turn?  Because there's still only one copy to call?

Is calling considered playing?  For example, would calling two Guides activate Conspirator?
Throne Room just does the top half an extra time, as on other cards; there's still just one Guide on the mat to call.

Calling is not playing; when you play the card, you're playing it, and when you call it, you're calling it. Calling it does put it "into play" though, which matters for Peddler etc.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2015, 10:54:39 am »
0

Coin of the realm is probably my favorite card in adventures, and that's saying a lot because I really like a lot of the cards. DXV is basically a genius for coming up with this card the way it is, it's just so beautiful the way you build your deck very differently to get the most out of it.

Ela, the nice thing about CotR is that you aren't punished that much by over buying them, and it turns out that the split matters most of the time.

Guide is one of those cards that I love, probably more than anyone else will. That card makes me so happy, I just feel so much better about my life whenever I have one on my mat  :)

Duplicate is a gainer, it's best with cards you want to spam, unlike haggler. Haggler tends to be stronger, but hey it costs 5 and duplicate doesn't. I would rarely open with it though.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2015, 10:54:43 am »
0

So, where does this put us on the whole mat thing.  What is the most mattastic game we can have?

Pirate Ship, Island, Trade Route, Tavern, Native Village am I forgetting something?

There's the mats that hold VP tokens. And Trade Route mat is a separate category, because there's only 1, not 1 for each player.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2015, 10:55:51 am »
0

So, where does this put us on the whole mat thing.  What is the most mattastic game we can have?

Pirate Ship, Island, Trade Route, Tavern, Native Village am I forgetting something?

There is a "Trash" Card that you could call a Mat.  Didn't Prosperity come with a mat to place your Victory Tokens?
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2015, 10:55:55 am »
0

So, where does this put us on the whole mat thing.  What is the most mattastic game we can have?

Pirate Ship, Island, Trade Route, Tavern, Native Village am I forgetting something?

There's the mats that hold VP tokens. And Trade Route mat is a separate category, because there's only 1, not 1 for each player.

ALL THE MATS.

Just because there is only one of them it is still a mat.  And possibly my favourite mat at that.
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Re: Previews #2 - Guide, Duplicate, Coin of the Realm
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2015, 10:56:32 am »
0

So, where does this put us on the whole mat thing.  What is the most mattastic game we can have?

Pirate Ship, Island, Trade Route, Tavern, Native Village am I forgetting something?

There is a "Trash" Card that you could call a Mat.

Only if you were some kind of heathen.  If it's not square it's not a mat.
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