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Author Topic: Features Thread  (Read 107474 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #125 on: April 16, 2015, 01:01:40 pm »
+1

Throned merchant ship and princed storyteller is absolutely an edge case...

How about a throned amulet and a guide? That probably already feels a lot less edge-case-y, requiring only 3 cards and something that can very well be the best strategy. And when we get all the Adventures cards there will be a lot more situations like this.
Yes, it's not going to be such a rare thing, and will absolutely matter that they get it right. And fortunately that will be easy for them; odds are it will happen just due to letting you order start-of-turn effects, with no special attention paid to Throne Room.

Unfortunately, this is not currently the case.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2015, 01:47:25 pm »
0

The problem is that currently Making Fun uses the cards themselves to represent their start-of-turn effects, which breaks down when the card is no longer present or when it was played multiple times.
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popsofctown

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2015, 02:16:21 pm »
+1

That's unfortunate.
That model works for Forking a Staggershock in MtG, but not for Throne Rooming a Caravan.  I do kind of feel like this is a case where the game's own rules make things challenging, since the duration card stays on the table as a reminder, and it's tempting to use that for something as a coder, but technically according to the game rules the card isn't actually doing anything when it's sitting there as a reminder (even though it cares about the things it's "not doing" to decide whether to be discarded!)
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2015, 02:44:48 pm »
0

I think playing Throned Duration effects and their resolution to not be much of an edge case. Adventures will be adding more Durations, and I'm pretty sure the order we want to resolve the throned effects will matter. Anyway, since it is being discussed in this thread, hopefully MF notices.

Either way, MF should have a dedicated thread for bug reports. Although, I think having the game working within the rules of the game should always be a top priority, along with having the Salvager features.
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Lord Humanton

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #129 on: April 17, 2015, 06:10:32 pm »
+28

I asked about this just yesterday actually, in response to a question on our forums. Here's what I was told:
Our first priority is getting the 2.0 version of the existing game out for web and then mobile. After those are live it will be a high priority to get Adventures live. "High", but not necessarily "highest". Adventures will be a major effort requiring substantial enhancements to the engine, AI and user interface, and we already have a long list of post-launch enhancements to the existing game.
So like half a year?
Consider another couple months more on version 2 and at least three more on Adventures.

I'm not clear on what you are actually doing: Are you rewriting the whole thing from scratch or are you using anything Goko made?
  • We're rewriting Goko's backend platform from scratch. Goko's platform is something like 30 different kinds of servers running in a large distributed network, which handle most of what goes on with the site ...but none of which knows anything at all about Dominion. We're replacing it with a server written for Dominion with a DB schema designed for Dominion. The point of this is maintainability (and therefore stability) and performance.
  • We're rewriting Goko's frontend client from scratch. The HTML5 animation library is actually pretty sweet, but we're replacing it with a Unity client that will work on tablets, run on personal computers natively, run on the web, and (later), run on phones.
  • The only thing we're keeping from Goko is the backend game server, which handles what happens in-game (rules, AI, directions about game to UI). As has been pointed out in this thread, there are known rules bugs mostly in rare edge cases (I track 14 of them), but in the grand scheme of things, addressing these will not be hard when we aren't swamped by more serious bugs in the core system.

Also, i don't know how many people care about AI, are you sure this should be higher priority then getting Adventures out?
It's not a higher priority at all; it's part of getting Adventures out. A lot of users exclusively play AI.

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #130 on: April 17, 2015, 07:32:33 pm »
0

Thanks Lord Humanton. Your post was very enlightening. And, I'm taking your time frame as a rough estimate. Anyway, it is a bit sad that we are likely looking at another half year before Adventures is online, but I understand the reasoning.

So, essentially what you're saying is that Dominion takes 30 servers to run it that technically don't even run the game. lol. That's hilarious.
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Lord Humanton

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #131 on: April 17, 2015, 07:46:05 pm »
+29

Two suggestions:

Have an extensive private beta with lots of folks from these boards, and don't release it until it is feature parity with the existing online system.
This is pretty much the plan, actually. We already have the invite list for the first round, which we hope to start within a week. Then we'll post to open it up to people in these kinds of forums. Then eventually we'll make it a public beta and announce it on the site.

Feature parity is approximately the goal (although that's quite a big deal!) It's certainly true that our mission is to migrate onto a system that we can actually maintain and improve, rather than focusing on new features. That said, there is no point in re-implementing some of the bad stuff. For example, people want to generate kingdoms like the millions of Dominion picker phone apps out there do; they don't want to do it like Deck Builder. Another example is the awful room/table metaphor that was copied from the first version of the Internet Gaming Zone in 90's. So, if the launch is temporarily missing stuff, it will be because we're in the process of replacing it with something entirely new and better.

Especially with how badly the original Goko rolled out, profitable Online Dominion probably really can't survive another botched launch.
I think we agree, but it's a little bit apples-and-oranges. Goko wasn't trying to launch a game; it was trying launch a system for game developers to make their games in. Dominion Online happened to be one of the sample games. Contrast this to Making Fun, which actually is a game developer/publisher, and where the players are actually the customers.

Keep the existing Online Dominion up even after the new one is released. Let players "vote with their feet" to move over to the new system once they think it is better. If nobody is moving, then the new implementation isn't ready yet. Shutting down the current one prematurely would likely annoy current customers, and it is the current customers that are going to help spread the word of a new mobile release.
We will have both running side-by-side, initially with purchases only allowed on the version 1 system and migrated to the version 2 system. This won't last forever though, because the version 1 system is too expensive to run.


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theblankman

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #132 on: April 17, 2015, 10:23:36 pm »
0

Feature parity is approximately the goal (although that's quite a big deal!) It's certainly true that our mission is to migrate onto a system that we can actually maintain and improve, rather than focusing on new features. That said, there is no point in re-implementing some of the bad stuff. For example, people want to generate kingdoms like the millions of Dominion picker phone apps out there do; they don't want to do it like Deck Builder. Another example is the awful room/table metaphor that was copied from the first version of the Internet Gaming Zone in 90's. So, if the launch is temporarily missing stuff, it will be because we're in the process of replacing it with something entirely new and better.

Thanks for the responses Lord Humanton! 

I don't think "feature parity" necessarily means keeping every existing feature verbatim, rather it means pretty much what you said: covering the same use cases that the existing features do, with similar or better quality.  To use an example from earlier in the thread, Andrew aka ragingduckd pointed out that while a lot of people have asked for automatch like the Salvager extension provides, there are much better matchmaking algorithms out there and any of those would probably make all of us just as happy as we are with Salvager, if not more so. 

That said I think it can't be stressed enough that we really want feature parity (by the use case definition) with current version plus Salvager, NOT just the current version.  Honestly I consider the current UI sans Salvager to be only barely usable. 
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werothegreat

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #133 on: April 17, 2015, 10:24:07 pm »
0

Consider another couple months more on version 2 and at least three more on Adventures.

So, five months total, or two months for re-launch, then one more month till Adventures releases?
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Lord Humanton

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #134 on: April 18, 2015, 12:17:09 am »
+20

That said I think it can't be stressed enough that we really want feature parity (by the use case definition) with current version plus Salvager, NOT just the current version.
Seriously, I'm willing to wait longer for you to implement everything Salvager currently does before releasing the new interface.

Obviously we don't want to break anything, including salvager features, but realistically, some salvager features are higher priority than others. I'm not going to tell someone that the only reason he can't play on his tablet is that we haven't added a Greeting Message feature yet. :-/ So we'll have automatch, game log sidebar, VP counter, animation speed tweaks, stacking duplicate cards... and be trying hard for a personal blacklist and kingdom generation (if we can't, then ASAP after)... while we're going to defer the greeting message, gravitars, notifications, common blacklist, isotropish ratings, extra logging... And some features become moot.
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Lord Humanton

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #135 on: April 18, 2015, 12:21:50 am »
+3

Consider another couple months more on version 2 and at least three more on Adventures.

So, five months total, or two months for re-launch, then one more month till Adventures releases?
I meant five. If it weren't for version 2, we'd be releasing Adventures this month.
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rspeer

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #136 on: April 18, 2015, 12:36:39 am »
+5

Obviously we don't want to break anything, including salvager features, but realistically, some salvager features are higher priority than others. I'm not going to tell someone that the only reason he can't play on his tablet is that we haven't added a Greeting Message feature yet. :-/ So we'll have automatch, game log sidebar, VP counter, animation speed tweaks, stacking duplicate cards... and be trying hard for a personal blacklist and kingdom generation (if we can't, then ASAP after)... while we're going to defer the greeting message, gravitars, notifications, common blacklist, isotropish ratings, extra logging... And some features become moot.

Sounds like you've got your priorities in the right place.

I don't even think Isotropish ratings are important. Just make sure people can get the logs and they can try out whatever rating system they want.
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Lord Humanton

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #137 on: April 18, 2015, 12:37:17 am »
+19

Thank you all for the posts!!! I counted over 50 distinct ideas and I've recorded every one. Even though they may be known, the prioritization is useful. I've organized them by the number of distinct posters who supported them (unscientific I know but better than nothing.) Based on that, here are the top 10 (or so):

1. Always-visible game logs (on non-mobile)
2. Automatch
3. Kingdom cards on 1st page (esp. if ruins, bane)
4. Real kingdom generation
5. Better reconnect
6. Button options instead having to drag
7. Support Adventures set
8. VP Counter
9. Blacklist
10. Prevent misclicks
11. API
12. Who-goes-first adjustments
13. Rematch
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #138 on: April 18, 2015, 02:39:56 am »
0

Thank you all for the posts!!! I counted over 50 distinct ideas and I've recorded every one. Even though they may be known, the prioritization is useful. I've organized them by the number of distinct posters who supported them (unscientific I know but better than nothing.) Based on that, here are the top 10 (or so):

1. Always-visible game logs (on non-mobile)
2. Automatch
3. Kingdom cards on 1st page (esp. if ruins, bane)
4. Real kingdom generation
5. Better reconnect
6. Button options instead having to drag
7. Support Adventures set
8. VP Counter
9. Blacklist
10. Prevent misclicks
11. API
12. Who-goes-first adjustments
13. Rematch

I made a poll. More data is better, right?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13027
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GeoLib

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #139 on: April 18, 2015, 02:54:40 am »
+3

Thank you all for the posts!!! I counted over 50 distinct ideas and I've recorded every one. Even though they may be known, the prioritization is useful. I've organized them by the number of distinct posters who supported them (unscientific I know but better than nothing.) Based on that, here are the top 10 (or so):

1. Always-visible game logs (on non-mobile)
2. Automatch
3. Kingdom cards on 1st page (esp. if ruins, bane)
4. Real kingdom generation
5. Better reconnect
6. Button options instead having to drag
7. Support Adventures set
8. VP Counter
9. Blacklist
10. Prevent misclicks
11. API
12. Who-goes-first adjustments
13. Rematch

I made a poll. More data is better, right?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13027

I'm not sure that this kind of poll is the best way to construct such a ranking. Only letting people choose 3 things seems pretty arbitrary. Even if most people agree that Automatch > Cards on 1 page > game logs > reconnect, if those people all vote for the 1st 3 we don't really get useful information about the rest of the ordering. If a poll seemed necessary, I would suggest just linking to a google forms type thing where people could either rank or rate each thing on a scale 1-10.
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Gherald

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #140 on: April 18, 2015, 03:12:13 am »
+2

(Condorcet is the way to go if you want a mathematically ideal result)

But I'd say Drab's simple forum poll is fine... it's not like we're going to have a precise impact on the outcome of MF's development plans, they just need a rough idea
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Donald X.

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #141 on: April 18, 2015, 03:22:36 am »
+2

(Condorcet is the way to go if you want a mathematically ideal result)
Not so. Note that we aren't looking for a single winner. Instead of ranking candidates, we can assign them scores, then add them up for each candidate. That's more expressive.
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rspeer

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #142 on: April 18, 2015, 03:40:49 am »
0

Not so. Note that we aren't looking for a single winner. Instead of ranking candidates, we can assign them scores, then add them up for each candidate. That's more expressive.

Oh god, for a moment I thought you meant the Borda count, but you mean range voting. Yeah, range voting works fine. I was kind of disappointed to learn about its emergent adequateness after learning so much about Condorcet.

Condorcet: "Look at me! I am optimal under certain assumptions because AWESOME MATH WITH AWESOME WEIRD EDGE CASES."
Range voting: "Hi, I'm over here not making those assumptions, and generally doing the right thing with boring arithmetic."
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Gherald

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2015, 03:46:16 am »
0

Condorcet does give you a results list that ranks all the options according to voters' preference

Range voting would be fine as well
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Rabid

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #144 on: April 18, 2015, 05:24:15 am »
+8

I find the match found alert system really useful in the automatch settings.
As it lets you browse away while you wait for a match.
I also think having a "its your turn to do something in game" alert would be a great feature.
Ideally audio plus tab highlighting.
Helps if your opponent is playing very slowly, especially in games with discard attacks.
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Gherald

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #145 on: April 18, 2015, 05:42:38 am »
0

Quote
I also think having a "its your turn to do something in game" alert would be a great feature.
Ideally audio plus tab highlighting.
Helps if your opponent is playing very slowly, especially in games with discard attacks.
+1, this is a great idea for interactions like discard attacks, Advisor, Oracle.  Any kind of notification (like the start-of-turn beep) if I haven't interacted with the game window in the last ~4 seconds would be nice.

(I love that it's Rabid requesting this feature since.. well, he and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to game pace. Oh, Rabid's turn is starting? I'm going to go make some tea.. ;)
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DStu

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #146 on: April 18, 2015, 05:55:55 am »
0

I'm not sure if it was stated here, but if we are talking about an always visible game log, we are talking about an always visible log of the current and last turn (I assume).  Otherwise you have people all the way scrolling back to turn 1 to count how many points they have, which is not what you want.

Especially not in Garden games etc., as this just takes a lot of time.
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SCSN

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #147 on: April 18, 2015, 05:57:05 am »
+2

I'm not sure if it was stated here, but if we are talking about an always visible game log, we are talking about an always visible log of the current and last turn (I assume).

No, I certainly want the full thing, text-searchable as Salvager's is.
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #148 on: April 18, 2015, 06:22:47 am »
+1

I'm not sure if it was stated here, but if we are talking about an always visible game log, we are talking about an always visible log of the current and last turn (I assume).  Otherwise you have people all the way scrolling back to turn 1 to count how many points they have, which is not what you want.

Which is why you enable the point counter so that people know how many points they have without having to scroll back to turn 1.
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #149 on: April 18, 2015, 08:56:57 am »
+2

I'm not sure if it was stated here, but if we are talking about an always visible game log, we are talking about an always visible log of the current and last turn (I assume).  Otherwise you have people all the way scrolling back to turn 1 to count how many points they have, which is not what you want.

Which is why you enable the point counter so that people know how many points they have without having to scroll back to turn 1.

There are players who use this to figure out the exact contents of decks (search for "Awaclus gains Wandering Minstrel" and count the results).


I am just going to leave this here without any comment, because I don't really feel like getting in that debate again. But this makes it very similar to the drheld thing from years back.
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