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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2015, 07:44:11 pm »
0

Welp! It sounds like it will be a full year before we get Adventures Online.

Just one suggestion for MF, during your spare time, if you guys are bored or stuck or something, it wouldn't hurt to try programming an Adventures card or two. That way it will be less to program later, and who knows, it might give you guys a rush of creativity. Just saying.

Anyway, I think that a solid Dominion implementation that also works on tablets will do wonders for this game. I can imagine a lot of people downloading the app for their tablets. So, I can see why getting version 2.0 is top priority. Although, I am a bit worried since it seems we don't even have the MF 1.0 version out yet.

Oh, and if people complaining about other players is a big time consuming issue for you guys, I strongly recommend creating a black list feature. That will hopefully cut down on time that should instead be spent on working on the game rather than frivolous things. Well, complaints aren't frivolous, but too many people complaining can really bog things down for time. I get it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 07:53:36 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Gherald

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2015, 08:09:15 pm »
+1

Just one suggestion for MF, during your spare time, if you guys are bored or stuck or something, it wouldn't hurt to try programming an Adventures card or two. That way it will be less to program later, and who knows, it might give you guys a rush of creativity. Just saying.
Aww, that's cute.
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TheOthin

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2015, 08:23:35 pm »
+3

Even at lower levels, I have never personally felt the need for a way to address other players' attitudes. That's not to say I've never encountered unpleasant players, but not ones that were so much of a problem that I couldn't just ignore them and move on. Although this does remind me of the frustrating but different case of attempting to use automatch and repeatedly getting paired with a player who refuses to play.

And yeah I've gotta echo the concern that picking cards from a long list, like with Scheme, where all you can see is the left edge of the card, just isn't enough. Having to remember the edge of a card's art to properly select your target for an effect just isn't okay. And it's even worse with Prince, where cards played with Prince are included with the rest of them, with no reminder that you might be picking the wrong one and ripping it off Prince. That's horrid.
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DavidTheDavid

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2015, 08:40:04 pm »
+4

I asked about this just yesterday actually, in response to a question on our forums. Here's what I was told:
Our first priority is getting the 2.0 version of the existing game out for web and then mobile. After those are live it will be a high priority to get Adventures live. "High", but not necessarily "highest". Adventures will be a major effort requiring substantial enhancements to the engine, AI and user interface, and we already have a long list of post-launch enhancements to the existing game.

So like half a year?

I'm not clear on what you are actually doing: Are you rewriting the whole thing from scratch or are you using anything Goko made?

Also, i don't know how many people care about AI, are you sure this should be higher priority then getting Adventures out?

tl;dr It's being rebuilt on Unity.

So this history predates my involvement with the game, and I'm betting that some of you old-timers know this history pretty well but here goes. From what I understand, Goko built a proprietary platform that would serve for all the games they offered. That effort went pretty badly. MakingFun became involved and first tried to patch what they could, closing something 200 tickets. However, it became apparent that what the game needed was a platform built just for it, as opposed to Goko's all-things-for-all-games platform. So we've been building a game that uses the Unity platform which will get us on web and mobile. From what I know about Mobile, the only hitch is for Chrome users, which frustrates me a bit as I use a Chromebook for the great majority of my online work and play, and prefer Chrome browser when elsewhere.
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Watno

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2015, 09:00:01 pm »
0

The screenshots on your Steam Greenlight look a lot like the old version. Are those from the new implementation or the old one?
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DavidTheDavid

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2015, 09:26:47 pm »
0

The screenshots on your Steam Greenlight look a lot like the old version. Are those from the new implementation or the old one?

Here's what our CEO said on the Steam discussion boards:
Quote
LastFootnote, part of why it has taken so long is we really TRIED to improve the existing game. We closed > 100 bugs on the live version. We didn't want to start over. But eventually we had to make that tough decision. All you are voting for here is do you want to see a NEW version of Dominion come to Steam. The screenshots are a combination of work-in-progress and the live version (for the benefit of people who haven't seen it). Our main goal is to get the existing functionality live as a starting position. And not have to reboot the servers every week. We are a few months from shipping the game still. Please give us your 'up' vote here and reserve judgement once you see the new game. After all, it will still be a free download to get the entire base set of Dominion, which is a heck of a deal.

There are some other comments he made there that you might find interesting too, including some comments on Adventures: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/comments/398496969
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Gherald

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2015, 09:55:53 pm »
+9

After reading those posts, and TheDavid's here asking about features/feedback, I'm somewhat pleased.  Dominion Online is in better hands than it was pre-MF.

Which is not to say the next release will be perfect, but it looks like everything will only get better from here, and then some. Not a high bar, but it's good to know it's being cleared and there is reason to be hopeful there'll be a nice implementation.

And that is, uh, my professional opinion as a software engineer.
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markusin

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2015, 10:42:08 pm »
0

After reading those posts, and TheDavid's here asking about features/feedback, I'm somewhat pleased.  Dominion Online is in better hands than it was pre-MF.

Which is not to say the next release will be perfect, but it looks like everything will only get better from here, and then some. Not a high bar, but it's good to know it's being cleared and there is reason to be hopeful there'll be a nice implementation.

And that is, uh, my professional opinion as a software engineer.
As someone currently studying software engineering, I've learned quite a few lessons about how things can go wrong by observing Goko. It's nice to see MF being motivated to improve Dominion Online as best they can.
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theblankman

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2015, 02:43:20 am »
+2

tl;dr It's being rebuilt on Unity ... which will get us on web and mobile. From what I know about Mobile, the only hitch is for Chrome users, which frustrates me a bit as I use a Chromebook for the great majority of my online work and play, and prefer Chrome browser when elsewhere.
The other hitch I can see from Unity's site and other searching is that Unity web player is only supported for Windows and Mac, so a desktop Linux user like me is out of luck if you're only doing web and mobile (i.e. no native desktop builds).  It's not exactly encouraging when old threads like these are the top google hits:
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/15227/is-there-an-unity-webplayer-for-linux-.html
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/20888/what-can-i-do-for-linux-support.html

While I'm here asking technical things, I've brought up the idea of providing an API for bots and/or alternate clients a few times, and still wonder if that would be considered at all.  It would let the community address the Linux thing if that's not enough users to be worth your time, and let folks like the Salvager contributors continue to, well, contribute (afaik there's not much new work being done on Salvager now, it doesn't seem worth it when we know the upcoming release will make the extension stop functioning, but if the upcoming release allows for any kind of community contribution, we've already shown that we're willing to put time into that). 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:48:50 am by theblankman »
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GeoLib

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2015, 04:25:49 pm »
0

tl;dr It's being rebuilt on Unity ... which will get us on web and mobile. From what I know about Mobile, the only hitch is for Chrome users, which frustrates me a bit as I use a Chromebook for the great majority of my online work and play, and prefer Chrome browser when elsewhere.
The other hitch I can see from Unity's site and other searching is that Unity web player is only supported for Windows and Mac, so a desktop Linux user like me is out of luck if you're only doing web and mobile (i.e. no native desktop builds).  It's not exactly encouraging when old threads like these are the top google hits:
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/15227/is-there-an-unity-webplayer-for-linux-.html
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/20888/what-can-i-do-for-linux-support.html

While I'm here asking technical things, I've brought up the idea of providing an API for bots and/or alternate clients a few times, and still wonder if that would be considered at all.  It would let the community address the Linux thing if that's not enough users to be worth your time, and let folks like the Salvager contributors continue to, well, contribute (afaik there's not much new work being done on Salvager now, it doesn't seem worth it when we know the upcoming release will make the extension stop functioning, but if the upcoming release allows for any kind of community contribution, we've already shown that we're willing to put time into that).

I love this idea. Please please please do this.



There is not one player hosting a game. The table you get after matching is "neutral". When a game starts at the table the cards available are the cards anyone brought to the table  (like it would do if they met afk and combined what they had). A basic card like Smithy that everyone "has" doesn't get a higher probability of appearing than a card that only one player at the table has – every possible card gets the same probability.

This way there is better reason to start buying cards even if you're not ready to buy them all. With the current setup there is not much reason to buy a single set if you don't play robots, because with few cards you will often play against someone with more cards anyway, so your cards won't be used. But with this scheme there is better reason to buy your favourite set to make sure that cards from it can appear in all games you play.

You wouldn't have to bring all your cards to the game. If you hate that Possession, move it to the cards-I-keep-at-home pile. (This avoid people not buying a particular set because there's one card there they don't want to get in their games as often.) You're not safe though – someone else might have brought it to the table.  Probably only few players will bother taking away cards they've bought like that, but it can be very useful for some.

This seems like a great way to address the "I don't want to play with cards I don't like" issue. Certainly I like it much better than veto mode or Donald's blacklists idea. I agree that it would also encourage people to buy single sets more frequently rather than either buying everything and hosting or searching for someone who's bought everything.
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AdamH

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2015, 08:01:41 am »
+4

I was thinking about this, and it would be an easy fix.

Whenever someone clicks the "Play Treasures" button, it would be nice to print a line in the game log saying "Adam Horton has $55 and 12 buys" (with the correct numbers obvs). One of the nice things about the Goko version is that it shows the opponent's money and buys at all times, but if you didn't see their turn very well then you might have trouble figuring out what their income was. Or maybe you're looking at a game log.
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market squire

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2015, 08:46:43 am »
0

A bigger, alternative interface for desktop screens.
It would be very nice if you could avoid the 2nd supply page (like by having a third row of cards).
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Awaclus

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2015, 08:53:52 am »
+1

Whenever someone clicks the "Play Treasures" button, it would be nice to print a line in the game log saying "Adam Horton has $55 and 12 buys" (with the correct numbers obvs)

Why would I want to know how many dollars and buys Adam Horton has whenever I click the Play Treasures button?  :P
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Witherweaver

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2015, 09:03:56 am »
0

A bigger, alternative interface for desktop screens.
It would be very nice if you could avoid the 2nd supply page (like by having a third row of cards).

Yeah, the cards can afford to be a lot smaller.
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Polk5440

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2015, 05:23:55 pm »
+5

Hmmm... I somehow missed this thread, too. I added my +1s to above posts and compiled my list:

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER:

+ Ability to reconnect if...
     1) Internet connection is spotty or slow
     2) Browser is closed or page is refreshed.
     3) Player is logged out.
   
    (#1 is what is implemented in client now and sometimes works. #2 and #3 are NOT implemented in any way but is what people expect with a reconnect feature. LF explained well, above.)
   
It's been on my (everyone's) list forever.
   
The second most important thing ever:

Eliminate lags, freezes, loading issues (much fewer than the early days, but they still exist).

Important:
+ Auto-Match based on ranking.
+ Fewer lobbies with larger capacities. Ideally, based on game type (pro, casusal, unrated, with friends, etc.)
+ If a player quits a multiplayer game, replace him with an AI. Do not end the game for everyone.
+ Report abusive players. Salvager handles this correctly: allow a personal blacklist and an option to block top 10% most blacklisted players. MF can add it's own "block reported players" option.

Somewhat Important:
+ Ability to buy all cards with cash money (promos, new base card art, Adventures,....)
+ Ability to play a rematch (same game settings) with opponents with one click (using rules of Dominion for determining starting player). If any opponent declines, back to the lobby you go.
+ Ability to play a rematch with the same exact kingdom.
+ Improvements to Deck Builder (renamed as Kingdom Builder).
+ Implement kingdom selection features for causal/unrated games (e.g. 5 Intrigue, 5 Hinterlands randomized within expansion or Mountebank + 9 random cards)
+ Ability to watch a game. Or remove this tempting button from the client!!
+ Force resign if player takes too long (after a certain amount of time, allow a "force the other player to resign" button to appear). Ideally, this could be set like chess programs allow clocked games of various lengths.

Would be nice:
+ Minimize use of second page; especially for Young Witch bane and ruins. For example, basic treasures and victory cards can be stacked or otherwise reduced in size. They do not need to be the same size as kingdom cards. Their art is not that great.
+ Keep Pro relatively uniform in options that stick to the rules of Dominion. Give more options to unrated (e.g. choose player order, point counter, identical starting hands, etc.)
+ Improve Buttons:
     1) End Turn button should be moved away from other buttons. It's too easy to accidentally end your turn!
     2) Add buttons for top decking, discarding where you have to drag and drop. Don't necessarily eliminate the drag and drop option.
+ Add fun achievements. (e.g. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11954.msg431145#msg431145)
+ Add recommended sets of 10.
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blueblimp

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2015, 07:38:12 pm »
+3

Not sure about this, but doesn't Salvager do some fiddling with the button positioning to prevent accidentally clicking a dangerous button when you expected a different one to appear? I can't remember the details or an example, but I vaguely remember the defaults being an annoyance before using the extension. I'd definitely want the improved button positioning in the new client.
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Polk5440

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2015, 08:40:40 pm »
0

Not sure about this, but doesn't Salvager do some fiddling with the button positioning to prevent accidentally clicking a dangerous button when you expected a different one to appear? I can't remember the details or an example, but I vaguely remember the defaults being an annoyance before using the extension. I'd definitely want the improved button positioning in the new client.

Yes it does. The button moves to the side. In the new Dominion client, a new position would have to be found if there is no sidebar.
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Chris is me

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2015, 08:55:13 pm »
+5

I asked about this just yesterday actually, in response to a question on our forums. Here's what I was told:
Our first priority is getting the 2.0 version of the existing game out for web and then mobile. After those are live it will be a high priority to get Adventures live. "High", but not necessarily "highest". Adventures will be a major effort requiring substantial enhancements to the engine, AI and user interface, and we already have a long list of post-launch enhancements to the existing game.

The Adventures news is disappointing, but understandable. It looks like the most complex Dominion expansion ever made, by a lot, and I understand if that takes some time.

This post did bring up a point I wanted to make while you guys are working on this and before it's too late. When you release Dominion 2.0, will you be taking down Dominion 1.0? I really hope you do not, and please hear me out here.

As you've said, you'll be releasing 2.0 out for the web and mobile first, then you'll work on post-launch enhancements (including, presumably, any suggestions you guys implement from this thread), and then Adventures after that. Since Adventures will not be coming out with 2.0, and a variety of enhancements will not be happening until after launch, I fear that when Dominion 2.0 launches, it will end up being a net downgrade for players of Dominion 1.x with Salvager installed.

Without Salvager, Dominion 1.x is almost unplayable, and before Salvager came out, many players were driven away by the official implementation of Dominion Online. From what I've seen, in preview screenshots online (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Dominion 2.0 will be reusing the same interface as Dominion 1.0, down to the positions of cards, the positions of buttons, the off-screen log and chat windows which cover the game when triggered, etc. So while the stability improvements and whatever features you all manage to throw in by then will be great, the dropping of Salvager support without the features re-implemented in the new version of Dominion will mean that for the hardcore players, Dominion 2.0 will be a downgrade and a return to features of Dominion 1.x that made people quit in the past.

I guess the point I'm trying to get to is, if you can keep Dominion 1.x up until Dominon 2.0 is competitive with Salvager, it would save us a lot of headache. If you're planning on having all the Salvager features implemented at launch, then good for you guys, we'll figure it out I guess.
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Polk5440

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2015, 11:06:42 pm »
+1

After playing some 4 player casual games, I have become suspicious that player turn order is not random. It looks like the table creator gets a random seat then the other players are filled in based on the seat in which they joined the game.

This is not good and should be fixed.
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2015, 02:11:27 am »
+5

Not sure about this, but doesn't Salvager do some fiddling with the button positioning to prevent accidentally clicking a dangerous button when you expected a different one to appear? I can't remember the details or an example, but I vaguely remember the defaults being an annoyance before using the extension. I'd definitely want the improved button positioning in the new client.

Yes it does. The button moves to the side. In the new Dominion client, a new position would have to be found if there is no sidebar.

It only moved End Actions and End Turn, there were a few other "dangerous" buttons.  I started working on giving every button a unique position until real life took the free time I had for that, and with the new version on its way, major new development on Salvager doesn't seem worthwhile any more (if they consider my API request on the other hand...)

Anyway the new client should definitely do more to prevent misclicks than the old. 
- No two buttons in the same position.  Or to put it another way, never hide one button and show a different one in the same spot.
- Maybe confirmation/are-your-sure dialogs for certain actions?  (Trashing a card?)

There was some discussion about this in the huge Salvager thread a while back but it's pretty hard to find anything in that thread now.
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blueblimp

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2015, 05:43:47 pm »
+5

An easy way to enter custom Kingdoms for Casual games. I don't like the built in Deck Builder tool; it takes too long to find each card. I love the Salvager Kingdom generator where you can just copy and paste a fun Kingdom you found in text form.
I just wanted to ditto this. I don't think that the UI designers for Goko Dominion Online understood the use case for designed kingdoms. Even if you specify a particular kingdom, you still usually only want to play it once. Coding the "Deck Builder" was a waste of time from this perspective. The interface to enter a comma-separated list of kingdom cards actually dates back to isotropic.

A nice thing about allowing entering a kingdom as text is that 3rd-party kingdom generators can generate a kingdom as text, which can be copied into the game to play it. Sort of an example (although it doesn't generate the kingdoms, just the weighting for the kingdom): http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11749.0.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 05:44:50 pm by blueblimp »
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DavidTheDavid

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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2015, 09:35:23 pm »
+5

I asked about this just yesterday actually, in response to a question on our forums. Here's what I was told:
Our first priority is getting the 2.0 version of the existing game out for web and then mobile. After those are live it will be a high priority to get Adventures live. "High", but not necessarily "highest". Adventures will be a major effort requiring substantial enhancements to the engine, AI and user interface, and we already have a long list of post-launch enhancements to the existing game.

The Adventures news is disappointing, but understandable. It looks like the most complex Dominion expansion ever made, by a lot, and I understand if that takes some time.

This post did bring up a point I wanted to make while you guys are working on this and before it's too late. When you release Dominion 2.0, will you be taking down Dominion 1.0? I really hope you do not, and please hear me out here.

As you've said, you'll be releasing 2.0 out for the web and mobile first, then you'll work on post-launch enhancements (including, presumably, any suggestions you guys implement from this thread), and then Adventures after that. Since Adventures will not be coming out with 2.0, and a variety of enhancements will not be happening until after launch, I fear that when Dominion 2.0 launches, it will end up being a net downgrade for players of Dominion 1.x with Salvager installed.

Without Salvager, Dominion 1.x is almost unplayable, and before Salvager came out, many players were driven away by the official implementation of Dominion Online. From what I've seen, in preview screenshots online (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Dominion 2.0 will be reusing the same interface as Dominion 1.0, down to the positions of cards, the positions of buttons, the off-screen log and chat windows which cover the game when triggered, etc. So while the stability improvements and whatever features you all manage to throw in by then will be great, the dropping of Salvager support without the features re-implemented in the new version of Dominion will mean that for the hardcore players, Dominion 2.0 will be a downgrade and a return to features of Dominion 1.x that made people quit in the past.

I guess the point I'm trying to get to is, if you can keep Dominion 1.x up until Dominon 2.0 is competitive with Salvager, it would save us a lot of headache. If you're planning on having all the Salvager features implemented at launch, then good for you guys, we'll figure it out I guess.

I do know that it has been discussed, but I do not know what's been decided. I think that having both up initially would solve a lot of problems. I imagine that we will get notice of the rollout plan as we get closer to the release.

Thanks again to everyone.
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2015, 11:06:16 pm »
+7

I guess the point I'm trying to get to is, if you can keep Dominion 1.x up until Dominon 2.0 is competitive with Salvager, it would save us a lot of headache. If you're planning on having all the Salvager features implemented at launch, then good for you guys, we'll figure it out I guess.

I do know that it has been discussed, but I do not know what's been decided. I think that having both up initially would solve a lot of problems. I imagine that we will get notice of the rollout plan as we get closer to the release.

Thanks again to everyone.

Pleasepleasepleaseplease discuss making Dominion 2.0 extensible in a way that lets Salvager or something like it keep existing.  You have players who want to help customize the interface, and have demonstrated that they can do it well.  We figured stuff out on our own the first time around, how much more cool stuff could we do if we had a documented platform to start working on?
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2015, 06:43:42 pm »
+17

I guess the point I'm trying to get to is, if you can keep Dominion 1.x up until Dominon 2.0 is competitive with Salvager, it would save us a lot of headache. If you're planning on having all the Salvager features implemented at launch, then good for you guys, we'll figure it out I guess.

I do know that it has been discussed, but I do not know what's been decided. I think that having both up initially would solve a lot of problems. I imagine that we will get notice of the rollout plan as we get closer to the release.

Thanks again to everyone.

Pleasepleasepleaseplease discuss making Dominion 2.0 extensible in a way that lets Salvager or something like it keep existing.  You have players who want to help customize the interface, and have demonstrated that they can do it well.  We figured stuff out on our own the first time around, how much more cool stuff could we do if we had a documented platform to start working on?

Exposing the client source code or the server API would be really nice.  However great a job you guys do on the UI, there will be plenty of potential customers who want something more or different, and plenty of other folks who will cheerfully oblige them if you make your platform accessible.

Incidentally, I see some requests for Salvager features in this thread.  Please don't conclude from those requests that people really want Salvager's UI quirks.

People are asking for Automatch or Autokick because they're better than the horror of with Goko's ill-conceived and half-finished UI.  But Automatch and Autokick are crap compared to a seek graph or even a simple seek command and formula-based challenge system like ICC has.
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Re: Features Thread
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2015, 07:33:38 pm »
+2

This is not a high priority, but it would sometimes be nice to have an option to “cancel game” if all players agreed, which didn't have any impact on players’ ratings. This could be used to avoid what all players agree is an awful board, or to resolve a stalemate (e.g., involving Possession). To avoid repeated pestering, it could be that if I offer to cancel the game and you decline, I can't offer again until you have done so.

It would also be nice if Pro games (which should be renamed to something more descriptive like "ranked") had an option for cards you wanted to play with more or less often, to be implemented if and only if both players chose the same more/less option for that card. If I don't like Scout, and you don't like Scout, we can play a Pro game that is less likely to have Scout.

This has been discussed before on these forums in the context of excluding some cards entirely. For example, one way to implement this might be that I could check to put Scout in Never, 1/2, 1/3, 2x, or 3x as often as other cards. Then if I pick Never and you pick 1/3, Scout is selected for the Kingdom 1/3 as frequently as other cards (when both players agree on the direction but not the magnitude of the change, use the less extreme preference).
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