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[liopoil]

Solitaire speed emptying Supply currently depends on connecting Procession-Procession-Fortress-Watchtower. Improving on existing methods is really just about getting there faster, either with cards that do more on the first two turns or that will help you assemble what you're missing on Turn 3.

Nonsense. Colliding those four cards is the ideal case, but there are many ways to get there, most of which don't include starting with those 4 cards in your deck. It's certainly possible that there is a card in adventures that could replace one of those cards too (as long as it isn't watchtower). Things with other TfB instead of procession are possible too. But yes, it is about speed to get cards that let you gain cards that let you gain cards that gain cards with increasing power. Magpie actually could help with that, except that it doesn't increase in power ever; you just gain more magpies until there are no more magpies and then you are done.

[WanderingWinder]

I don't understand why this is such a great engine card.

Who said it was?

Mic did:

Storyteller isn't obsoleted by strong trashing, though strong trashing might enable a less finicky draw engine. But Storyteller improves with any sort of trashing, so that you have high value treasures in hand with it.

Depending on the board of course, strong trashing can allow you to build insane engines with Storyteller. Big, big stuff.

I don't read that as Mic saying it's "a great engine card". He's saying that, under the right circumstances, with a bunch of qualifiers, you can, potentially, build big, insane engines using this. Which will sometimes come up. You could say the same about lots of cards, though maybe not quite in the same way. In short, this has good upside, a high ceiling.

[Gherald]

This is pertinent because it speaks to why having +1 card would change a lot more than just 1 extra card of sifting, as you originally asserted:

I stand by my assertion.

+1 card sifting is the functional change, whether or not that +1 sifting leads to (let's say) an extra Platinum to get +5 cards with is beside my point of explaining the functional difference between two cards.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself the same way, so let's try a simple analogy.  Let's say we're discussing smithy for +3 cards, and a smithy variant that gives +4 cards.

I say okay the difference is that the alternate version gives +1 cards.

You say, no the difference is more than just +1 cards, because that additional card could be a Lab which gives you even more cards!

And I'm like well okay, yes that additional card could itself have some benefit that gives you more cards.  But that is not the point I'm making.  The difference between smithy and variant-smithy is still +1 cards.

So back to the point, the difference between Storyteller and alternate version is +1 card sifting.  What that boon of +1 sifting potentially leads to (finding an extra Platinum, let's say) is a separate consideration.  It may or may not happen, and you've already accounted for the possibility of it happening when you note the benefit of sifting.

[Witherweaver]

This is pertinent because it speaks to why having +1 card would change a lot more than just 1 extra card of sifting, as you originally asserted:

I stand by my assertion.

+1 card sifting is the functional change, whether or not that +1 sifting leads to (let's say) an extra Platinum to get +5 cards with is beside my point of explaining the functional difference between two cards.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself the same way, so let's try a simple analogy.  Let's say we're discussing smithy for +3 cards, and a smithy variant that gives +4 cards.

I say okay the difference is that the alternate version gives +1 cards.

You say, no the difference is more than just +1 cards, because that additional card could be a Lab which gives you even more cards!

And I'm like well okay, yes that additional card could itself have some benefit that gives you more cards.  But that is not the point I'm making.  The difference between smithy and variant-smithy is still +1 cards.

So back to the point, the difference between Storyteller and alternate version is +1 card sifting.  What that boon of +1 sifting potentially leads to (finding an extra Platinum, let's say) is a separate consideration.  It may or may not happen, and you've already accounted for the possibility of it happening when you note the benefit of sifting.

Uh.. the key difference there is that Smithy does not directly utilize that extra +1 card.  Storyteller does directly utilize it in a not insignificant amount of cases.

[markusin]

This is pertinent because it speaks to why having +1 card would change a lot more than just 1 extra card of sifting, as you originally asserted:

I stand by my assertion.

+1 card sifting is the functional change, whether or not that +1 sifting leads to (let's say) an extra Platinum to get +5 cards with is beside my point of explaining the functional difference between two cards.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself the same way, so let's try a simple analogy.  Let's say we're discussing smithy for +3 cards, and a smithy variant that gives +4 cards.

I say okay the difference is that the alternate version gives +1 cards.

You say, no the difference is more than just +1 cards, because that additional card could be a Lab which gives you even more cards!

And I'm like well okay, yes that additional card could itself have some benefit that gives you more cards.  But that is not the point I'm making.  The difference between smithy and variant-smithy is still +1 cards.

So back to the point, the difference between Storyteller and alternate version is +1 card sifting.  What that boon of +1 sifting potentially leads to (finding an extra Platinum, let's say) is a separate consideration.  It may or may not happen, and you've already accounted for the possibility of it happening when you note the benefit of sifting.

Uh.. the key difference there is that Smithy does not directly utilize that extra +1 card.  Storyteller does directly utilize it in a not insignificant amount of cases.

Yeah, it's like if that Lab you drew with the variant-smithy gives a bonus if drawn with the variant-smithy that you don't receive if it's drawn some other way.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I really like the art on this one.

Also, 42 guests are viewing this topic. Hi guys!

[eHalcyon]

This is pertinent because it speaks to why having +1 card would change a lot more than just 1 extra card of sifting, as you originally asserted:

I stand by my assertion.

+1 card sifting is the functional change, whether or not that +1 sifting leads to (let's say) an extra Platinum to get +5 cards with is beside my point of explaining the functional difference between two cards.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself the same way, so let's try a simple analogy.  Let's say we're discussing smithy for +3 cards, and a smithy variant that gives +4 cards.

I say okay the difference is that the alternate version gives +1 cards.

You say, no the difference is more than just +1 cards, because that additional card could be a Lab which gives you even more cards!

And I'm like well okay, yes that additional card could itself have some benefit that gives you more cards.  But that is not the point I'm making.  The difference between smithy and variant-smithy is still +1 cards.

So back to the point, the difference between Storyteller and alternate version is +1 card sifting.  What that boon of +1 sifting potentially leads to (finding an extra Platinum, let's say) is a separate consideration.  It may or may not happen, and you've already accounted for the possibility of it happening when you note the benefit of sifting.

Uh.. the key difference there is that Smithy does not directly utilize that extra +1 card.  Storyteller does directly utilize it in a not insignificant amount of cases.

Exactly this.

And I would add, if you ignore the potential use of the drawn card in the Storyteller variant, then there is no sifting difference between it and the official Storyteller card.  Whether it says +1 Card or +$1, you still draw exactly 1 card from it.  It would be like comparing Smithy with a variant that lets you look at the top card of your deck before drawing.

[Gherald]

Guys, analogies are not perfect argument tools. They're not meant to hold in every respect, and often there is no analogy available that does hold in every respect.  Nevertheless, they can communicate a conceptual understanding, and that's what I did here. Geez.

[eHalcyon]

Guys, analogies are not perfect argument tools. They're not meant to hold in every respect, and often there is no analogy available that does hold in every respect.  Nevertheless, they can communicate a conceptual understanding, and that's what I did here. Geez.

I think it communicated a conceptual misunderstanding...

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

If you already had 3 copies of the highest treasures available in hand, the Storyteller with +1 sifting also cannot draw more.

And apparently you always do!

No.. but I do sometimes go on to write sentences that explain my point.

In fact I endlessly spend time explaining obvious things to people on the internet. Hey it's part of the job and it's easy.

And I gave you some sentences; they just didn't do much for you. I don't see why additional sentences would be treated differently. At the same time this hypothetical card is too close to a real card for it to be great for me to endlessly analyze it. I don't need to convince you of anything; believe whatever you want about that hypothetical card.

Not all sentences are created equal!

But my post already had the three best sentences.

And it would have had them all, but they can't ALL be the best sentences.

[Gherald]

And I would add, if you ignore the potential use of the drawn card in the Storyteller variant, then there is no sifting difference between it and the official Storyteller card.  Whether it says +1 Card or +$1, you still draw exactly 1 card from it.  It would be like comparing Smithy with a variant that lets you look at the top card of your deck before drawing.

When you note that something gives +1 card sifting, you are not ignoring its benefit.  You have already described a benefit.  You're just not getting into the details of how that benefit plays out in particular cases.

If I describe cellar to you and tell you it lets you sift away all the cards in your hand into your discard pile and draw the same number of new cards, I've described cellar's function to you vis a vis another card that doesn't have that function.  I don't need to get into the details of whether and how often you sifted away curses and coppers to find platinums and grand markets.

[Witherweaver]

I really like the art on this one.

Also, 42 guests are viewing this topic. Hi guys!

Way to grab that one first!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I really like the art on this one.

Also, 42 guests are viewing this topic. Hi guys!

Way to grab that one first!

When someone else writes fanfiction they can have Storyteller.

[Witherweaver]

And I would add, if you ignore the potential use of the drawn card in the Storyteller variant, then there is no sifting difference between it and the official Storyteller card.  Whether it says +1 Card or +$1, you still draw exactly 1 card from it.  It would be like comparing Smithy with a variant that lets you look at the top card of your deck before drawing.

When you note that something gives +1 card sifting, you are not ignoring its benefit.  You have already described a benefit.  You're just not getting into the details of how that benefit plays out in particular cases.

If I describe cellar to you and tell you it lets you sift away all the cards in your hand into your discard pile and draw the same number of new cards, I've described cellar's function to you vis a vis another card that doesn't have that function.  I don't need to get into the details of whether and how often you sifted away curses and coppers to find platinums and grand markets.

Yeah, but those "particular cases" are not just other stuff that happens in Dominion---they're part of the card resolution itself.  Putting +1 Card instead of +$1 (that translates into +1 card at the end) on Storyteller is a big difference because Storyteller immediately uses that card in some number of cases (that translates into more stuff after resolution).

[Witherweaver]

I really like the art on this one.

Also, 42 guests are viewing this topic. Hi guys!

Way to grab that one first!

When someone else writes fanfiction they can have Storyteller.

You deserve all the +1's. 

[-Stef-]

I can see this working in several kind of engines.

An engine that sometimes works is "Apprentice-in-Colony-games-with-a-buy". You want to start your turn apprenticing some platinum or colony, and after drawing it all you buy more then you had to trash. If you replace the Apprentice with Storyteller it just gets better (platinum still draws you 9 cards but you don't have to trash it). (EDIT: not true as stated by LFN below)
I can easily imagine this also working with gold & provinces. Maybe it's just engines that use money as a payload.

Another type of engine that should be able to make very good use of this card is the overdrawing engine with mid-turn gains. It might take a while to get there, but shortly after you're able to overdraw your deck you will be able to overdraw it by a lot. And thus explode the ironworks, butchers, hermits, ...

Using virtual coin to fuel the storyteller may turn out to be harder then expected. Usually you are most desperate for draw near the start of your turn, and then the virtual coin thing hasn't really happened yet.

[LastFootnote]

Storyteller on Platinum draws you 5 cards, not 9.

[crlundy]

Nice idea. New and conceptually simple, but with some situations that reward an understanding of the complexity. No idea if I'm actually going to like it. Possibly tragic stories told at the behest of Golems and Heralds.

I know you all love crazy. Dark Ages was the craziest expansion until now, and you guys love it. I'm just actually worried whether the (admittedly) few of us that actually prefer simple will have much to look forward to

Lost City doesn't look too bad.
I like simple and crazy, or rather, some of each. One without the other would be less appealing to me.

[WanderingWinder]

I can see this working in several kind of engines.

An engine that sometimes works is "Apprentice-in-Colony-games-with-a-buy". You want to start your turn apprenticing some platinum or colony, and after drawing it all you buy more then you had to trash. If you replace the Apprentice with Storyteller it just gets better (platinum still draws you 9 cards but you don't have to trash it).
I can easily imagine this also working with gold & provinces. Maybe it's just engines that use money as a payload.

Another type of engine that should be able to make very good use of this card is the overdrawing engine with mid-turn gains. It might take a while to get there, but shortly after you're able to overdraw your deck you will be able to overdraw it by a lot. And thus explode the ironworks, butchers, hermits, ...

Using virtual coin to fuel the storyteller may turn out to be harder then expected. Usually you are most desperate for draw near the start of your turn, and then the virtual coin thing hasn't really happened yet.

Uh, doesn't Platinum only draw you 5 cards (plus the one you get from Storyteller anyway makes 6)?

My biggest concern about using it like this is that you need to line these up with treasures reliably. For that reason, I expect Scheme might well be a good thing for you here.

[-Stef-]

Storyteller on Platinum draws you 5 cards, not 9.

whoops, never mind about that point then.
I'm not going to correct the post because I like being wrong.

[Gherald]

Yeah, but those "particular cases" are not just other stuff that happens in Dominion---they're part of the card resolution itself.  Putting +1 Card instead of +$1 (that translates into +1 card at the end) on Storyteller is a big difference because Storyteller immediately uses that card in some number of cases (that translates into more stuff after resolution).

Well, it is a difference. And it's a difference that's exactly equivalent to +1 card sifting up front before resolving the rest of the card. So I'm not sure what the big controversy is here.

Some people were calling it a "very, very big difference" whereas to me it seems far more modest, like playing a Pearl Diver.  Yeah, occasionally that Pearl Diver will line up something awesome on to the top of your deck that leads to even yet more awesome things happening that couldn't have happened if you hadn't gotten that awesome thing closer to being in your hand.  But this level of sifting usually doesn't make that big of a difference.

Since some people don't seem to appreciate analogies like this Pearl Diver one that won't exactly hold in every respect, let's come up with something that concretely does hold in every respect (well, provided you have at least 1 non-treasure in hand, but I'll call that a quite safe assumption for a sifting effect discussion and have no interest in your other cases)

Storyteller: Action, $5
+1 Action
+$1
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. Pay all of your $; +1 Card per $ paid.

Storyteller-sifter: Action, $5
You may immediately swap one card from your hand with the top card of your deck.
+1 Action
+$1
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. Pay all of your $; +1 Card per $ paid.

----

Is there a big difference between these two cards? I'm saying no. Certainly not a "very, very big" one as someone was hilariously claiming.

[Donald X.]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself the same way, so let's try a simple analogy.  Let's say we're discussing smithy for +3 cards, and a smithy variant that gives +4 cards.

Instead it's the difference between "draw cards based on how many cards you have and what they are" and "+1 card then that." It turns out +1 card gets you more than one card there.

Consider the extreme case of just having Storyteller in hand, with a deck of all Platinums. I play the +$1 version, draw one card, it's Platinum, I've got $5 to spend this turn. Or, I play the +1 Card version, draw one card, it's Platinum, play it, draw 5 cards, I've got $25 to spend this turn. I have $25 instead of $5.

You find it a good shorthand to describe this as one card worth of sifting.

[tripwire]

Is there a big difference between these two cards? I'm saying no. Certainly not a "very, very big" one as someone was hilariously claiming.

Maybe the problem is that people have different definitions for "big." So for you, it doesn't meet your criteria for "big," but it meets others' criteria. I think the important thing is that Donald said he tested both and the +$1 version worked better. That's really all that matters. Who cares if the difference qualifies as "big" or not?

Additionally, I'm just curious what you have at stake in this argument. It seems sillier than most that I read about on these forums.

[markusin]

Storyteller: Action, $5
+1 Action
+$1
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. Pay all of your $; +1 Card per $ paid.

Storyteller-sifter: Action, $5
You may immediately swap one card from your hand with the top card of your deck.
+1 Action
+$1
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. Pay all of your $; +1 Card per $ paid.

----

Is there a big difference between these two cards? I'm saying no. Certainly not a "very, very big" one as someone was hilariously claiming.

Imagine if Throne Room had the card swapping part before the action double-play part. It would effectively increase the reach of Throne Room by one card. Some would argue that this is a "very, very big" difference. It all depends on what you consider "very, very big", but I think it's fine to disagree with that assessment.

[Gherald]

I'm just curious what you have at stake in this argument. It seems sillier than most that I read about on these forums.

"very, very big" seemed hilarious to me so I've mentioned that a couple times, but that was just me being amused. I don't have a stake in people's subjective assessments.

I only have a stake in them calling my 1-card sifting description wrong when it's entirely correct, with the reasonable assumption that you have at least 1 non-treasure in your hand to do the sifting with.