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Author Topic: Preview: Storyteller  (Read 115695 times)

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Gherald

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2015, 09:54:18 pm »
0

I have already responded to Witherweaver; I am repeating no such mistake (as I didn't make the mistake to begin with)

Pearl Diver gives a benefit which is then used by other cards.  This is not conceptually different from one card giving that benefit without this additional Pearl Diver being involved.  (though obviously getting the benefit from another card means that card has to line up well for you, in much the same Village + Moat is not the same as a Lab. I've already accounted for this in making the comparison be to focus on just a positive, fortunate use of Pearl Diver)

Having a useful card available to you earlier rather than later is in-place deck sifting (in-place because you're not cycling it to a discard). I think that's already clear enough, so I'm not sure what you need elaborated.

Storyteller qua storyteller as a sifter is a separate discussion from everything I have been talking about.  That's one way to think about the card's text turning less-useful treasures into draw; it has nothing to do with comparing it to the -sifter variant I spoke of, which assuming you have something in your hand to sift out is just an exact way to conceptualize if it were to read +1 card instead of +1$.  That concept is useful because it allows you to compare it to the effect of a lined-up Pearl Diver, and have a sense of how big the effect is.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2015, 10:11:43 pm »
0

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ashersky

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #177 on: March 30, 2015, 10:16:18 pm »
+1

Did I miss where Robz explains how it combos with Scout?  That's the only reason these previews exist for me.
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tailred

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #178 on: March 30, 2015, 10:22:25 pm »
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Actually I think Gherald's comparison is valid, in that both the draw variant storyteller and the pearl diver + cantrip + storyteller combo allow you to search 5 cards for treasures to discard (the latter looking through the 2 cards in hand, the card drawn by PD, the new top card and the bottom card). I think there's sone degree of disagreement about the strength of this scrying effect,  though, where one side feels that there's a significant chance that the extra card searched is a treasure, and the bonus in that case is significant (extra cards drawn), while Gherald feels that the scrying effect is entirely negligible in the case when the extra card either isn't a treasure, or 3 treasures are already within the initial 4 cards. I suspect that Gherald may be underestimating either the bonuses gained from success case (picking up an additional useful treasure from the "pearl diver") or the chance of actually hitting the success case.
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tailred

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #179 on: March 30, 2015, 10:22:37 pm »
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Did I miss where Robz explains how it combos with Scout?  That's the only reason these previews exist for me.
Yes.
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ashersky

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #180 on: March 30, 2015, 10:27:52 pm »
0

Did I miss where Robz explains how it combos with Scout?  That's the only reason these previews exist for me.
Yes.

Can you point out where?  I've scrolled through the entire thread twice looking for Link and haven't found a post by Robz anywhere in this thread.

I found a Counterfeit version by Witherweaver that mentions Harem, but Robz is the only authority I trust on the subject.
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liopoil

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #181 on: March 30, 2015, 10:28:20 pm »
0

Did I miss where Robz explains how it combos with Scout?  That's the only reason these previews exist for me.
Yes.
I don't think he did it for this one. He did for the other three though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #182 on: March 30, 2015, 10:30:55 pm »
+2

Having a useful card available to you earlier rather than later is in-place deck sifting (in-place because you're not cycling it to a discard). I think that's already clear enough, so I'm not sure what you need elaborated.

Storyteller qua storyteller as a sifter is a separate discussion from everything I have been talking about.  That's one way to think about the card's text turning less-useful treasures into draw; it has nothing to do with comparing it to the -sifter variant I spoke of, which assuming you have something in your hand to sift out is just an exact way to conceptualize if it were to read +1 card instead of +1$.  That concept is useful because it allows you to compare it to the effect of a lined-up Pearl Diver, and have a sense of how big the effect is.

Re-reading the discussion, I think I understand what you meant by "1-card sifting difference" now.  For a moment I thought you were discussing a difference in Storyteller's actual effect of "sifting" the treasures that it plays.  My bad.

So the only disagreement is in how impactful that 1 card can be.  I'm going to trust Donald and the playtesters when they say that it is a significant difference.  Because, well, they've actually played with both versions.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #183 on: March 30, 2015, 10:32:23 pm »
0

How does it combo with Scout?  Obviously Scout can get Harems in your hand to play with Storyteller.  And get all those nasty Victory cards out of the way so Storyteller can draw something useful.  Match made in heaven.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #184 on: March 30, 2015, 10:35:23 pm »
0

Did I miss where Robz explains how it combos with Scout?  That's the only reason these previews exist for me.
Yes.

Can you point out where?  I've scrolled through the entire thread twice looking for Link and haven't found a post by Robz anywhere in this thread.

I found a Counterfeit version by Witherweaver that mentions Harem, but Robz is the only authority I trust on the subject.

:(
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crlundy

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #185 on: March 30, 2015, 11:03:33 pm »
0

Donald does a lot of work getting the power levels of different cards right and I believe him when he says that it makes a big difference.

That's what you think! Roughly 90% of playtesting/development goes to card names.

Indeed! Storyteller itself went through at least 12 names before Donald settled on this one.
Ooh, I hope there's a names portion of the Secret History. I like to know this stuff. :)
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #186 on: March 30, 2015, 11:12:39 pm »
0

Donald does a lot of work getting the power levels of different cards right and I believe him when he says that it makes a big difference.

That's what you think! Roughly 90% of playtesting/development goes to card names.

Indeed! Storyteller itself went through at least 12 names before Donald settled on this one.
Ooh, I hope there's a names portion of the Secret History. I like to know this stuff. :)

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was joking.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #187 on: March 30, 2015, 11:15:00 pm »
+9

Additionally, I'm just curious what you have at stake in this argument. It seems sillier than most that I read about on these forums.
It's just something the internet does to people. Someone says something wrong and you feel compelled to correct them. What if someone believed them? Then they treat what you said the same way and pretty soon you're having a futile argument in what should be a delightful preview thread.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #188 on: March 30, 2015, 11:23:16 pm »
+1

Additionally, I'm just curious what you have at stake in this argument. It seems sillier than most that I read about on these forums.
It's just something the internet does to people. Someone says something wrong and you feel compelled to correct them. What if someone believed them? Then they treat what you said the same way and pretty soon you're having a futile argument in what should be a delightful preview thread.

But hey, now a thread about one card is the same length as the one about three!
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AJD

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #189 on: March 30, 2015, 11:25:46 pm »
+5

Oh, wait, how about this:

Storyteller is an inverse Vault.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #190 on: March 30, 2015, 11:26:13 pm »
0

Additionally, I'm just curious what you have at stake in this argument. It seems sillier than most that I read about on these forums.
It's just something the internet does to people. Someone says something wrong and you feel compelled to correct them. What if someone believed them? Then they treat what you said the same way and pretty soon you're having a futile argument in what should be a delightful preview thread.

Who would argue in a preview thread?  Bloody savages!
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #191 on: March 30, 2015, 11:49:40 pm »
+1

So, I've been playing with Chris' delightful simulator, and it looks like Storyteller/BM is definitely not a thing, and Magpie/BM is just shy of just normal BM (something like 50.2% to 49.8%).  I'm going to keep tinkering with the program's priorities, though.

EDIT: The widest advantage of Magpie/BM (buy a single Magpie) seems to be with a Duchy threshold of Province<=4, and Estate for Province <=2.  That makes it ~52% to 47% in Magpie's favor.

EDIT2: Also pretty clear you only want to buy one Magpie.

EDIT3: Adding a Woodcutter seems to help, but I'm thinking Magpie having a technical advantage over plain BM over the course of many simulations is not exactly standout evidence of it being a strong BM card.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 11:57:07 pm by werothegreat »
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pubby

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #192 on: March 30, 2015, 11:58:13 pm »
0

What is, "normal BM"?

Quote
Also pretty clear you only want to buy one Magpie.
This may not hold true in mirrors where winning the split could(?) be important.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #193 on: March 31, 2015, 12:01:53 am »
0

Quote
Also pretty clear you only want to buy one Magpie.
This may not hold true in mirrors where winning the split could(?) be important.

Wrong thread.
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crlundy

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #194 on: March 31, 2015, 12:04:03 am »
0

Donald does a lot of work getting the power levels of different cards right and I believe him when he says that it makes a big difference.

That's what you think! Roughly 90% of playtesting/development goes to card names.

Indeed! Storyteller itself went through at least 12 names before Donald settled on this one.
Ooh, I hope there's a names portion of the Secret History. I like to know this stuff. :)

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was joking.
Well, I still like knowing about the names behind the cards. If they changed, why they were chosen. But I like knowing odd things.
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werothegreat

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #195 on: March 31, 2015, 12:13:25 am »
0

What is, "normal BM"?

Gain Province if CoinValueOf(Deck) > 18;
Gain Duchy if CountOf(Province, Supply) <= 4;
Gain Estate if CountOf(Province, Supply) <= 2;
Gain Gold;
Gain Duchy if CountOf(Province, Supply) <= 6;
Gain Silver;
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hvb

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #196 on: March 31, 2015, 04:58:30 am »
0

This card impresses me. Storyteller seems to be an ok/situational card, in general nothing extraordenary strong, that has a unique mechanism in paying for draw. These are attributs i appreciate.

Although the mechanism is easy to understand, i expect it to be a high skill card and difficult to play correctly. You want to draw as many cards as you need, but want to pay as less as possible. Drawing how many cards is the most efficient choise with your current deck? 2,3,5? This will be the kind of difficult decisions to make.

I expect Storyteller to be weak in BM strategies. Drawing 3 cards for losing 2 coins seems to be an awful deal for a 5 cost card. Often there will be better draw cards for 5 available. When your money density is good and you start greening, its fine, but starts to suck quickly the greener your deck becomes.

A much better usage i expect in engines. It helps to cycle fast and even more important it will make your engine much more reliable and minors the risk of dud turns. Will Storyteller make the skip/delay of heavy trashing in engines an option for a faster setup?
I am looking forward to get answers on this questions soon.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 05:01:43 am by hvb »
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Nakamura

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #197 on: March 31, 2015, 08:07:23 am »
0

Here's the Scout combo from page 2:
Combo with Scout: Scout to draw Harems, Storyteller+Harems to draw cards!
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DG

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #198 on: March 31, 2015, 08:47:34 am »
0

Why do people think they will be using their coppers with Storytellers? They will be using their silver and golds to draw all sorts of treasure plus a useful terminal.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Preview: Storyteller
« Reply #199 on: March 31, 2015, 08:51:34 am »
0

I'm confused... why are you posting a preview?  :o Is this because we're all WW, including Donald X?

Anyway, Storyteller was one of my absolute favorites. Huge fan.
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