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Author Topic: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero  (Read 44335 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2015, 02:43:18 pm »
+11

Above line, Lost City is a City where one supply pile has been lost.  It checks out.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2015, 02:45:14 pm »
0

I am excited for Magpie/Vineyards and Magpie/Scrying Pool.

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.

Actually, yes. That's probably very powerful on some boards.

I doubt it, considering that you have to buy a card, then play three cards, all on successive shuffles, after. One way to do that fast would be to trash down (but then P Stone isn't good). So I guess maybe if you have tons of silvers, and you don't want whatever the other cards in the chain are, and the rest of the board isn't all that strong, and...

crlundy

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2015, 02:48:43 pm »
+6

Also, Hero can get you P-Stone without needing a Potion. Clearly a power combo right there.
See also: Trashing Squire, gaining Familiar.

I doubt it, considering that you have to buy a card, then play three cards, all on successive shuffles, after. One way to do that fast would be to trash down (but then P Stone isn't good). So I guess maybe if you have tons of silvers, and you don't want whatever the other cards in the chain are, and the rest of the board isn't all that strong, and...
But it's just so fun. Gaining Potion-costing cards without a Potion always feels satisfyingly like cheating. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2015, 02:57:06 pm »
0

Magpie is the card in Adventures that had me worried.
I hope I overestimate it, but if I don't...

I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you might want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like a decent opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie might also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.

... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I already like the magpie a lot. The art is very nice and it seems simple to play (no hard decisions to make once bought).
Its a bit comparable to vagrant, but much stronger, as you get another magpie, if you dont hit a treasure. In early game one of the seldom case you want your card not to hit. The hitting chance is much higher in early game than with vagrant.
So it looks like an opener if you expect the game to last long, especially in slogs.
Magpie also enable engines if there is no copper trashing available.
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Titandrake

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2015, 02:58:59 pm »
+2

Magpie seems very strong to me. The standard is $4 for +1 card +1 action +$1. If Magpie hits a treasure, you're guaranteed that much plus you cycle one card deeper. If it doesn't, you get more chances to draw cards.

The only downsides I can see are:
- if you get hit by Militia, it makes choosing actions harder.
- if you're playing a +Cards and only have 1 action left, you're probably going to draw lots of Magpies instead of something good.

The first is only a small downside in my opinion, and the second is mitigated by all the Magpies you have - if you have lots of Magpies, you have better chances of sweeping up Treasures into your hand, and therefore are less likely to draw dead cards in your engine.

I don't think it's broken - I would say it's around as good as Ironmonger, and that's a pretty strong bar. Ironmonger doesn't gain more copies of itself, but you can cycle 1 card deeper on every play, revealing an Action makes it less likely you draw cantrips dead, and revealing a Victory is amazing. I think the Action + Victory parts balance out against Magpie's self-gain. The only part that worries me is that 8-10 Magpies enables a lot more engines, and gaining more Magpies is very easy and snowbally, so in games where Magpie is good, there's going to be much more variance.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2015, 03:04:05 pm »
+7

Lost City looks really strong.  If somebody had posted this as a fan card, I would probably have commented that the drawback did not seem to be enough.  I am either overestimating the vanilla bonuses or underestimating the drawback, probably a little of both.

Let's compare Council Room and Lost City:

-CR has on *on play* penalty.  You can get however many you want, but you have to be careful playing them.
-LC has an *on gain* penalty.  Be careful getting them, but once you have them, have a ball.

But which penalty is worse?  The CR penalty happens more often, but not until you've actually gotten a use out of the card.  The LC penalty only happens once, but you might not be able to use the card at all if it's too close to the end of the game.

FWIW, you can mitigate Council Room with Militias. With Lost City, the next player can Militia but he (and potentially everyone else) is definitely getting a turn with an extra card.

It's On-Gain, not On-Buy, so you could still Militia if you Gain it during your Action Phase.  (Or if you Buy it from the Black Market deck.)

Ooh, so with Lost Cities in the Kingdom, Ambassador becomes a draw card!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:09:57 pm by GendoIkari »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2015, 03:09:30 pm »
+3


... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2015, 03:15:55 pm »
0


... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?

People thought Jester would be bonkers? Soothsayer maybe?

I remember more cards that people underestimated rather than the other way around.

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2015, 03:17:56 pm »
+7


... you can scratch all the maybe's, mights and decents from this paragraph.

I am surprised of this advise. One hour after releasing its too early to scratch them. How often even good players thought in past, this card is much too strong and will have a huge negative impact on the game while it has not.

This is the first expansion coming out for me since I started playing, so, got any embarrassing stories about people overestimating cards?

People thought Jester would be bonkers? Soothsayer maybe?

I remember more cards that people underestimated rather than the other way around.

Jack of all Trades and Rebuild were both rather severely underestimated when they were first revealed.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2015, 03:18:19 pm »
+14

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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2015, 03:18:38 pm »
0

I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2015, 03:20:49 pm »
+5

I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

I seem to remember everyone saying that Merchant Guild seemed worse than Bridge, and was significantly more expensive to boot. Doesn't seem like an overestimating to me.

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #137 on: March 30, 2015, 03:22:33 pm »
0

I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

I seem to remember everyone saying that Merchant Guild seemed worse than Bridge, and was significantly more expensive to boot. Doesn't seem like an overestimating to me.

Hm, maybe you're right.  I had thought that some people said that, but there was a big "no it's better!" dissent. 
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Robz888

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #138 on: March 30, 2015, 03:24:29 pm »
+2

People underestimated Cultist, even after playing with it for weeks.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2015, 03:27:56 pm »
+6

Hunting Party gets progressively worse when stacked

I've never understood why people make fun of that statement so much because it's trivially true. In your average HP stack the first couple of HPs are super Labs whereas the last few are mere cantrips.

That you want to keep adding Hunting Parties anyway for reliability and because buying HP still beats the next best alternative does not at all mean that your 7th HP is anywhere close to as good as your 2nd.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2015, 03:33:25 pm »
+1

Magpie seems very strong to me. The standard is $4 for +1 card +1 action +$1. If Magpie hits a treasure, you're guaranteed that much plus you cycle one card deeper. If it doesn't, you get more chances to draw cards.

The only downsides I can see are:
- if you get hit by Militia, it makes choosing actions harder.
- if you're playing a +Cards and only have 1 action left, you're probably going to draw lots of Magpies instead of something good.

The first is only a small downside in my opinion, and the second is mitigated by all the Magpies you have - if you have lots of Magpies, you have better chances of sweeping up Treasures into your hand, and therefore are less likely to draw dead cards in your engine.

I don't think it's broken - I would say it's around as good as Ironmonger, and that's a pretty strong bar. Ironmonger doesn't gain more copies of itself, but you can cycle 1 card deeper on every play, revealing an Action makes it less likely you draw cantrips dead, and revealing a Victory is amazing. I think the Action + Victory parts balance out against Magpie's self-gain. The only part that worries me is that 8-10 Magpies enables a lot more engines, and gaining more Magpies is very easy and snowbally, so in games where Magpie is good, there's going to be much more variance.
I think it was Donald that mentioned in the BGG thread that having more Magpies makes it more likely that the Magpies will get in the way and reveal each other. Kind of like how Sage can draw other Sages. Without doing the math, I assume having more Magpies increases the chance that you'll draw with one of them, but by how much depends on the size of your deck and it may not be as dramatic an increase as it appears.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #141 on: March 30, 2015, 03:35:40 pm »
+5

Hunting Party gets progressively worse when stacked

I've never understood why people make fun of that statement so much because it's trivially true. In your average HP stack the first couple of HPs are super Labs whereas the last few are mere cantrips.

That you want to keep adding Hunting Parties anyway for reliability and because buying HP still beats the next best alternative does not at all mean that your 7th HP is anywhere close to as good as your 2nd.

I think it's because the wording makes it sound like getting a stack of them is bad.  "Progressively worse" makes it sound like you're doing a bad and more bad thing, not simply diminishing returns.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #142 on: March 30, 2015, 03:37:17 pm »
0

I think everyone thought Merchant Guild would be bigger than it is, maybe.  Or perhaps overestimated the number of games where it would be the preferable strategy.

Though I could be wrong; I don't play rated games so I don't see if it's used in real Dominion that much.

Merchant Guild is one of the best engine payloads.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #143 on: March 30, 2015, 04:14:59 pm »
+3

I remember when I first saw Trader and was like "man, this going to completely break the game"
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #144 on: March 30, 2015, 04:17:52 pm »
+6

Scout is great and all Robz, but these days what the forumers want to hear about is not ridiculously OP cards, but decidedly mediocre ones that are actually fun, in particular, everyone's favorite card, Watchtower. In this post I will answer any questions you may have about just how crazy the interactions these cards have with watchtower.

Lost City is a counter to watchtower-based strategies, of which there are many. Lost city is one of the few attacks that watchtower does not have a defence to. When you gain a lost city, your opponent is forced to draw a card, which makes their watchtower unable to draw as much on their next turn.

Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

Hero looks like a watchtower's dream come true; topdeck the next card in the sequence and play it the next turn, to cycle through the ranks even more quickly! But alas, this is not possible as the next card is merely exchanged, not gained. But don't worry, hero still has neat interactions with watchtower. With sufficient actions, you can play hero, gain a treasure on the deck, then play watchtower and draw one more card than normal due to hero decreasing your handsize. One of the cards you draw will be the treasure that you chose, too.

I look forward to exploring these exciting watchtower interactions with you all.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #145 on: March 30, 2015, 04:28:36 pm »
0

Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2015, 04:32:13 pm »
0

Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.
Of course, I was actually serious. Really in any game if you put this together there's no reason not to take all the magpies. It's hard to put together, but totally worth it on occasion.

Also, it has probably been mentioned, but the arrow on Hero points florst.

I played with peasant in Chicago, glad it's still around, but at the time it was absurdly good, so hopefully it's a bit more balanced now.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 04:33:59 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2015, 04:35:14 pm »
0

Magpie is great with watchtower. Suppose you play a magpie, it reveals an action or victory card, and you have a watchtower and second magpie in hand. Topdeck the gained magpie with watchtower, play your magpie and draw it, reveal the same card, rinse, repeat. In this manner you can gain the rest of the magpies in one turn; only two magpies and a watchtower required. That is true synergy.

You know, I could actually seriously see doing this in a Vineyard game.

I imagine this would be relatively common in Magpie/Watchtower games. Maybe even in Magpie/draw your deck games. I guess it depends on how badly too many Magpies ruin it for each other.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2015, 04:35:41 pm »
0

I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2015, 04:38:49 pm »
0

I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).

Well, unlike Pearl Diver, Magpies can increase your hand size. So they can sometimes be good against discard attacks. Not as bad as Pearl Divers anyway.
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