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Author Topic: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero  (Read 45556 times)

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Burning Skull

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2015, 05:02:14 pm »
0

I really really like Magpie.
Every time you need high action density (which is pretty often I'd say), this will come in handy.

The only bad thing about amassing that birdies is that they are no good against discarding attacks (in the same way as Pearl Divers are).

Well, unlike Pearl Diver, Magpies can increase your hand size. So they can sometimes be good against discard attacks. Not as bad as Pearl Divers anyway.

Well, if you still have coppers, yes.
Somehow I feel that there are a lot of reasons to go for Magpies even with good copper trashing..

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2015, 05:03:34 pm »
+3

I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.

LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2015, 05:07:35 pm »
+5

I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.

It's not horrible, but I think it can be a liability. One Pearl Diver is basically a random card from the top of your deck. It's harder to make an informed decision about what to discard when some of the cards in your hand are basically unknown quantities.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #153 on: March 30, 2015, 05:22:26 pm »
+2

I don't understand why people think Pearl Diver is horrible against discard attacks.

It's not horrible, but I think it can be a liability. One Pearl Diver is basically a random card from the top of your deck. It's harder to make an informed decision about what to discard when some of the cards in your hand are basically unknown quantities.
If you have cards better than Pearl Diver, you discard Pearl Diver, and then you can end up drawing whatever crummy cards are on top of your deck. Sure that's bad. Alternatively, if you have bad cards, you hold on to Pearl Diver - well, it didn't make a difference. But my point here is that just as the first situation I described can hurt you, having the Pearl Divers can help you - you are just as likely to have the crummy cards in hand to start, and now because there are Pearl Divers, huzzah, I am doing better. It all washes out entirely.

The only way it really hurts you in net is for situations where you have terminal-draw, and you WOULD have also had Village. Even here, there are some alternative cases which mitigate the downside, and at the end of the day, you don't have to dead draw. The biggest point is that this difference is really really small. And it's not at all clear that THAT is actually bigger than the benefit you get from sometimes saving a good card from the bottom of your deck (which isn't huge but really can be substantial).

Can it potentially harm you? Sure. Is that enough that it should make you not want to buy Pearl Diver when you otherwise would? Almost never.

swedenman

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #154 on: March 30, 2015, 05:34:21 pm »
+1

Magpie looks extremely powerful. At first glance it looks like the money-equivalent of Herald, but since you start with 7 Treasure cards it seems like it would be much better early. It also seems excellent in engines because it can clear out treasures that might otherwise clog your deck, though in super-thin treasureless decks I imagine it's pretty useless. As a cantrip it's rarely incredibly dangerous to have in your deck, though, so it may still be useful early on even if it may eventually become useless once your deck has been trashed down. Either way, I think Magpie is going to be a very popular opener, but we'll see.

I'm not sure about Lost City. I like the concept, but it's hard to say how it will play. It obviously invites comparison to the other cards that let your opponent draw (Soothsayer, Council Room, and maybe Governor; I think that's all?). In general, you buy these cards when you need them, largely regardless of how much the draw helps your opponent. Obviously, they encourage finding a method to counter the draw (discard attacks, Possession) as well as looking for other ways to construct an engine, but at the end of the day, if you need a Council Room for draw, you get the Council Room. Lost City may behave similarly (you get it when you need a village and handsize increasers and there's no safer way to get it), but there is one key difference: your opponent gets the benefit before you. Increasing your opponents handsize by 1 hurts, but it's severely offset if you're also drawing 4 cards this turn. With Lost City, you're giving your opponent an advantage on his next turn while giving yourself no benefit until your Lost City comes up next shuffle. However, you get the benefit of Lost City throughout the game while your opponent only enjoys the benefit for one turn (though keep in mind that early turns are often the most important). For that reason, I see Lost City benefiting from long games. Also, it goes without saying that you should not fall into the same traps that many players do with Cities. If you have very few terminal actions and your Lost Cities are just Labs with an on-gain penalty, then you're probably using them wrong. Overall I really like Lost City; I think it'll be fun to see how good it turns out to be.

I really don't know much about Hero. It seems pretty good on-play, but deciding just how good it is will depend on how good the other cards in the Traveller sequence are (I'm assuming the Traveller card type just refers to the cards in that sequence). Presumably the Warrior card is incredibly powerful (it's a neat mechanic, so I assume Donald would do it justice), so I think there's a good chance that these cards are going to be worth pursuing. I am curious why it costs $5, though. Obviously it makes a difference with TfB and other cost-caring cards, but in the case of Spoils, Prizes, and such, they didn't seem to care, so I'm wondering if there's some other reason Donald wanted it to cost $5. Oh well. Looks interesting, anyhow.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 05:35:50 pm by swedenman »
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #155 on: March 30, 2015, 05:35:33 pm »
+1

You know, I think something as simple as magpie with a simple +buy card and money would beat pretty much every big money strategy if magpies are uncontested. You have 10 semi-reliable labs, only a couple of which you bought, along with a few silvers/golds by like turn 12 or something, and will actually start having double province turns. This makes most magpie games engine games, which means that the magpie pile runs super fast and the split is pretty important and unfortunately, as far as I can tell, mostly luck-based. I guess if you lose the split then you probably hit more treasures and so have a lead somewhere else.

Lost city seems pretty weak. I like that it has city in the name though. I think it will be most common where there is an engine but lost city is the only village. If lost city is the only draw it will be hard to get it to work, and if it isn't the only draw then you should probably get the other draw.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 05:37:19 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #156 on: March 30, 2015, 05:39:53 pm »
+4

Where are you getting so many more Magpies if they're actually hitting coins and drawing?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #157 on: March 30, 2015, 05:42:05 pm »
+4

I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.

liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2015, 05:43:14 pm »
0

Where are you getting so many more Magpies if they're actually hitting coins and drawing?
You buy probably two magpies, and your +buy card. They will hit treasures sometimes, but you will get enough magpies to be playing enough magpies to get all the magpies. Then you will be getting lots of treasures so they will only get better. Sure, the magpies will hit treasures when you want more magpies, and actions/victories when you want more treasure sometimes, but it will be alright.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2015, 05:43:40 pm »
+6

I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.

Also, Union regulations.  Hero has to get paid more than a Warrior.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2015, 05:44:56 pm »
0

I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2015, 05:47:56 pm »
0

I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?

Are you sure it wouldn't be fairly costed at 5? Compare to Explorer - sure this is a bit better usually, but Explorer isn't a World-beater or anything. I guess it is probably too good, but I don't think it's crazy - well, not without platinum anyway.

werothegreat

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2015, 05:48:21 pm »
+1

Lost city seems pretty weak. I like that it has city in the name though. I think it will be most common where there is an engine but lost city is the only village. If lost city is the only draw it will be hard to get it to work, and if it isn't the only draw then you should probably get the other draw.

From my games with it (and they weren't that many), it seemed pretty strong; the on-gain penalty doesn't seem to matter all that much in the course of the game.  I think Lost City is strongest when it is *both* the only village and the only draw, so long as there is good payload, like Goons or Bridge or what have you.  If you only had Villages/Goons, you might not be able to pull it off, but the handsize increasing of LC is not something you can dismiss easily.  LC/Goons: I drew all my Goons, and played all of them, and now I don't care whether you draw a card when I buy another LC and gain 5 VP.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #163 on: March 30, 2015, 05:53:34 pm »
0

I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
I like this. It seems very likely. Though hero would not be fairly costed at 5 by any means, 5* is much more balanced.

When page or peasant are upgraded, are they trashed or returned to the supply?

Are you sure it wouldn't be fairly costed at 5? Compare to Explorer - sure this is a bit better usually, but Explorer isn't a World-beater or anything. I guess it is probably too good, but I don't think it's crazy - well, not without platinum anyway.
Hmm, fair point. I guess I was just a bit hyped up by the idea of gaining ANY treasure. I thought it was on the same level as, say, the prizes, which are really hard to balance at a price point.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2015, 05:57:33 pm »
+3

I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
They do go 2-3-4-5-6, and yes a big part of that is that it helps make it all clear, the 3 goes to the 4.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2015, 05:58:04 pm »
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I don't remember this (or the related) ruling.  Does "Gain a <Type>" mean from supply only?  So in particular, can you gain Diadem/Spoils with Hero?  (I don't know why you're trying to gain Spoils instead of Gold.)
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2015, 05:58:16 pm »
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Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #167 on: March 30, 2015, 05:58:51 pm »
+4

I don't remember this (or the related) ruling.  Does "Gain a <Type>" mean from supply only?  So in particular, can you gain Diadem/Spoils with Hero?  (I don't know why you're trying to gain Spoils instead of Gold.)
All gains are from the Supply only unless otherwise specified. This is why you have "Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile."
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #168 on: March 30, 2015, 06:01:25 pm »
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Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.

Soothsayer can't gain Harems.  Or Banks.
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liopoil

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #169 on: March 30, 2015, 06:02:20 pm »
+2

Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.
Really? I find the attack of soothsayer to be quite weak, but that's just me. I rarely get soothsayer, my opponents rarely don't get soothsayer. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. Maybe I should go look up my stats.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #170 on: March 30, 2015, 06:03:18 pm »
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Oh, hey, theme synnergy: Hero gains Treasure; Adventurer searches for Treasure.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #171 on: March 30, 2015, 06:03:34 pm »
+3

Hmm. If you're getting Gold with it, then maybe the best comparison is Soothsayer, which also gets you Gold but also hands out Curses. Even with letting your opponents draw, it's hard to imagine that the Attack component of Soothsayer is worse than +$2.

Soothsayer can't gain Harems.  Or Banks.

Neither can Hero if you're getting Gold with it.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #172 on: March 30, 2015, 06:04:08 pm »
+1


There are 5 cards in each pile you upgrade into (the top two aren't Travellers, since they don't upgrade). They return to the piles, so that tends to be enough. Sometimes it isn't in multiplayer if everyone wants multiples right away.

You exchange by putting Hero back in the Hero pile, and taking a Champion. You can't exchange if the pile you're upgrading into is empty.

Does that mean that if you are playing a game with Pages, there are 10 pages, and 4 additional piles of 5 cards each? So in a really complicated game you could end up with at least 11 non-supply piles (Spoils, Madmen, Mercenaries, 6 Travelers, Champions, Teachers)?

Don't forget Prizes! And the Black Market deck, I guess.

And if you add Ruins, Potions, Platinums, Colonies, and a Bane, you look for another table to play your cards.
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #173 on: March 30, 2015, 06:12:38 pm »
+1

I assume that Hero costing 5, while it does have some interactions with cost-caring a la t4b, swindler, etc., is probably more to do with helping you remember the sequence? Or making it look nicer, what have you. We know the cheapest card in the sequence costs 2. I would hazard a guess that the costs of the cards go 2-3-4-5-6.
They do go 2-3-4-5-6, and yes a big part of that is that it helps make it all clear, the 3 goes to the 4.

I remember thinking about that at the meetup when we were asked for feedback. I was like "maybe the cards should have a number or something for a quick reference for their order," then I remembered the cost thing and was like "oh, that's clever."
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Re: Previews #1 - Lost City, Magpie, Hero
« Reply #174 on: March 30, 2015, 06:16:58 pm »
+4

I think if you restrict Hero to everything above the line it would be perfectly fine at $5. The ability to exchange it for a Champion however is hard to judge but probably means it shouldn't cost $5.

Magpie: I don't remember ever not wanting to open with it. I don't think it's bad for dominion because after that it can still go down in many different ways, but I think it's just really really strong. It can definitely work in engines and can also definitely work in BogMoney strategies.
disclaimer: I have some experience with it from playtesting but certainly not enough, so a lot of this is just my intuition:
I think I would open Ambassador/Magpie over Ambassador/{Tournament/Ironmonger/Wandering Minstrel/Walled Village}.
(and if I still think so in 3 months from now that should say enough about the power level of magpie)
I think I would open Steward/Magpie over Steward/{Tournament/Ironmonger/Wandering Minstrel}
I don't think Magpie/Silver is a great opening, because you don't want to decrease the chance of your first Magpie "missing" and gaining another Magpie


Lost City: I still find it difficult to understand how bad the on-gain penalty actually is, and how to compare it to say councilroom. But the comparison to Ill Gotten Gains springs to mind.
That is definitely not a weak curser, even though it works only once on-gain.
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