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Author Topic: The 10 words card summary challenge  (Read 30388 times)

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TheOthin

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2015, 07:13:43 am »
+3

Yeah it's really not hard to describe the literal effects of a card. The whole basis for this is that Stef, in 10 words, conveyed not just the direct impacts of Hunting Grounds but the core of a whole strategy article. (And then more helpfully in 20 words.) And this thread is in the Dominion Articles section.
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Witherweaver

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2015, 09:15:42 am »
+2

OK, fair enough.  But I stand by what I said that just summarizing isn't useful.  The official cards themselves are already made to be succinct.  I think the OP implies that a strategic take should be applied, and strategy is certainly the purpose behind the inspiration for this thread.

Throne Room: Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.

Dondon151: Deserves many upvotes.  Upvote this post, and then some more.
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Chris is me

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2015, 10:24:59 am »
+1

Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.

(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)

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Witherweaver

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2015, 11:39:34 am »
+2

Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.

(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)

Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn?  Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?
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dondon151

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2015, 03:55:41 pm »
0

I'd probably go with:

Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.

Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. There are a handful of really strong interactions between Gardens and another card (Beggar comes to mind), but I think in the majority of kingdoms, Gardens is just standard alt VP. Most Gardens rushes in 2-player lose to halfway decent engines, and without specific combos, they're also nothing special.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:59:58 pm by dondon151 »
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Chris is me

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2015, 03:56:50 pm »
0

Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.

(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)

Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn?  Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?

Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.

I'd probably go with:

(EDIT: Removed a post I was trying to take down 10 minutes ago. Apparently, on iOS you can't really select text on mobile. Fun, eh.)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:17:07 pm by Chris is me »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2015, 04:01:38 pm »
0

Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.

(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)

Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn?  Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?

Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.

I'd probably go with:

Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.

Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. Gardens rushes are generally bad outside of basically only Ironworks.

This is just flat out, plain, and completely wrong. Maybe before the last couple of expansions this was the case, but Beggar, CSM, and Storeroom are all top tier Gardens enablers that can easily beat many standard strategies. CSM actually beats DoubleJack a decent amount of the time.

You're flat out, plain, completely wrong there.

Edit: Ok, not 100%, beggar is good (though not a rush), and Storeroom is, well, not really good, just not totally often.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:03:01 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Witherweaver

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2015, 04:03:34 pm »
0

Gardens: Rush if you can quickly gain two cards every turn.

(I've been meaning to write an article about Gardens, since most of the current content predates Beggar, Storeroom, Candlestick Maker, and other important enablers)

Is being able to quickly gain two cards every turn better than being able to slowly gain two cards every turn?  Like, maybe your opponent won't notice that you're going to go for Gardens rush?

Yeah - it's a lot faster to get half a dozen cards that cost 3 than half a dozen cards that cost 5, and every turn you take to get set up is a turn your opponent is closer to Provinces.

I was joking because I though of  "quickly" as measuring how many you get per turn, and then you explicitly stated the number obtained per turn. 
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Chris is me

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2015, 04:05:43 pm »
0

WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.

Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.

As an aside, sorry for escalating this discussion earlier. Wasn't able to edit words out of my post quickly enough. Had a meh day.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:18:11 pm by Chris is me »
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JW

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2015, 04:19:35 pm »
0

WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.

Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.

I assume that one problem a Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy would have against Double Jack (or many other non-Gardens strategies) is that Double Jack will buy Gardens (including prioritizing Gardens over Duchies) to deny them. A simulator isn't going to capture this unless you spend a fair amount of time optimizing the strategies against each other. The Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy might also want a Jack of all Trades, and so on.
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Chris is me

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2015, 04:26:57 pm »
0

WW - Care to explain? Storeroom is a guaranteed $4 and 2 Buy every turn. CSM is nonterminal, very cheap, and potent - you can get to 40 cards by turn 14 pretty easily. Beggar / Gardens already has an article written about it.

Simulators aren't perfect, but CSM and Beggar are quite potent against a lot of standard benchmark BM strategies like double Jack. Storeroom is not quite at their level, but is good enough to be worth considering on a lot of boards.

I assume that one problem a Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy would have against Double Jack (or many other non-Gardens strategies) is that Double Jack will buy Gardens (including prioritizing Gardens over Duchies) to deny them. A simulator isn't going to capture this unless you spend a fair amount of time optimizing the strategies against each other. The Candlestick Maker-Gardens strategy might also want a Jack of all Trades, and so on.

I did spend some time tweaking each script in this matchup in particular to have Jack start buying some Gardens as well, once the CSM player bought a single Gardens. I did a bit more work tweaking each one to respond to each others' strengths, but at a certain point it gets too complex (for me) to model. I mainly used "double jack in a simulator" here to provide a reference for a standard, fairly quick (13-14 turn) winning strategy that CSM can outdo.

But really, give it a try sometime, it's not a flawless or unbeatable strategy by any means, but it's a reasonable choice on boards, particularly boards that don't hand you an engine on a silver platter (cheap trashing, villages, +buy, payload all there for you). The thing that sets it apart from most enablers is that it's always nonterminal, each copy always gives you an extra buy, and it doesn't lower your money density at all. A lot of what's great about Ironworks is how its nonterminal when you want it to be and you gain one card for each Ironworks you have in hand - and those advantages in a way apply to CSM.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:29:41 pm by Chris is me »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2015, 05:07:41 pm »
+3

particularly boards that don't hand you an engine on a silver platter

If your engine is on a Silver platter, it's probably not very good.

/joooookes
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dondon151

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2015, 05:08:42 pm »
0

Okay, so there are several things wrong here. Beating a BM strat doesn't mean that a rush combo is good. Most kingdoms will actually have substantial card interactions that will yield strategies superior to BM.

Simulating CSM + Gardens vs. Double Jack doesn't say much about the power of CSM + Gardens. Double Jack probably isn't optimized on this kingdom even with updated buy rules to include Gardens. I'm going to hazard a guess that CSMs + single or double Jack that prioritizes Province over Gardens but can compete for Gardens if necessary is better than CSM + Gardens rush.

The problem with Gardens rush strategies in general is that they're so easy to catch up to in points and they commit so hard to the strategy that it's impossible to recover. Deny some Gardens, get Provinces. A Gardens rush strategy has significant problems buying higher VP cards.

A lot of what's great about Ironworks is how its nonterminal when you want it to be and you gain one card for each Ironworks you have in hand - and those advantages in a way apply to CSM.

No they don't. IW guarantees you at least 1 Gardens and however many extra IWs you can get with collisions per play. CSM doesn't guarantee you anything except for a Copper per play. IW's advantage is that it empties piles super quickly; IW and Gardens are guaranteed and the third pile can just be another cheap Action card or Estate. CSM doesn't empty piles as quickly. If you load your deck with CSMs, you're on average producing less than $5 per turn, which isn't even enough to buy Gardens + CSM or Estate.

IW and Beggar are strong enough such that if you see either with Gardens in a kingdom, you can abandon all other thought and just go for the combo and still have a reasonable win rate. There's no way that CSM comes even close to that amount of power.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2015, 05:38:44 pm »
+6

The biggest problem with going for something like CSM or Storeroom is that the other player is going to adapt to what you're doing. Sometimes, that will mean contesting you on Gardens. If you rush your enabler, they'll just build their economy out, then contest you a little on Gardens at the end, probably picking up a couple. Alternatively - and probably more common - they will just go 'over the top'. You're getting Gardens? That's cute, I'll get every province in the supply. The key adaptation here is that they don't waste their time going for things like duchies, preferring to build their economy up more. You, the Gardens player, need a way to end the game. So you can get 8 Gardens. Sure. And you can get 40 cards in your deck, I believe you. But how are you ending the game? You may be ahead on turn 14, but the game is not about that - it's about ending the game whilst ahead. This is the great advantage Ironworks has - it gets to both establishing your matrix of Gardens and cards quickly, and then being able to slam the door shut afterwards. Cards like CSM and especially Storeroom lack this closing power. Let's say you're playing Storeroom/Gardens, and I completely ignore what you're doing. It's going to take you at the very least 22 turns, and probably 23-24, to actually end the game. You can get 5 point Gardens in that timespan, plus all the estates. Sure. I just need to get all the Provinces by then, which is not too terribly hard for a BM deck focusing on that. But it's actually even worse than that - in order to achieve your turn 23-24 result, you need to empty the Storerooms ASAP, then move to Gardens, then finally Estates (actually you could go for Estates before at least some Gardens, and possibly should in this not-realistic-simulation-world - you are going to run into too many hands without Storerooms after very long, and that's going to cost you a few turns). But if you wait so long, then Big Money player can actually snipe Gardens from you towards the end, which on one hand speeds you up, but on the other actually has more impact for them than a Province in terms of swing (minus five for you, plus three for them in a lot of cases). They don't want to do that until late, because it hurts their deck more, plus it's helping you end the game. But late enough - let's say, stealing two - and they're going to have very nice chances indeed. So you can move to pick up your Gardens sooner, to try to combat that, but now you have fewer Storerooms going in, which is going to make your deck grind to a halt more easily/often, which means you're oozing a few more turns, so they can ignore you now and just head straight for Provinces.

The key is adaptability, and the problem you have as the Gardens "rush" player is that they have much more of it than you do. Now, why do they? Well, basically because their deck is economically better, and this lets them split for more different kinds of victory points at whatever time they want, and be better-equipped to do more things afterwards. They also have access to a source of VP which is just worth more than you. Plus you don't really have a good plan to end the game on your own terms, which gives them a lot of flexibility.

And this is all talking about Big Money - engines are going to generally do all these things even better; Engines are a bit slower, but you are playing a really slow game, which allows them a lot of time to do anything they want.

The issue is, these things aren't really rushes, because you don't really have a way to make sure the game ends against an unpanicking, uncooperative opponent (and good players will have both of these characteristics, even if simulators do not). So you're really not playing a rush so much as you are a slog. Slogs can work, but they need to be able to have access to large amounts of VP that it's really hard for other decks to get to. Duke works really well for that because they're worth nothing if you don't prep by getting duchies first. Gardens CAN work for that, but you really need to be able to get lots and lots of cards and/or be able to get lots of Gardens AND lots of duchies relatively quickly. Silk Road, very similar thing, generally. There are nuances of course, but hey, I've written a lot already. Anyway, this is why Beggar/Gardens is really strong. Only a few Beggars gets to the Gardens pretty quickly, you get massive amounts of copper (so lots of points), and you don't have tons of problems reaching into duchies. But it's more a slog than a rush.

CSM is a little trickier, I haven't tested it, maybe you can rush a bit. I'm not totally sure. But I have a feeling you're going to run into some of the same problems as Storeroom, though maybe not quite as bad. You do have the added issue that you're buying a bunch of coppers-with-buys, though, and that is just not a really strong card. In any case, I would guess that the Jack deck wants one CSM in it, at least if you know/once you figure out they're going for mass CSM/Gardens. Possibly just in general.

(Edit to fix a typo).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 07:15:22 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Polk5440

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2015, 06:00:53 pm »
+18

10 words, guys. 10 words.
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dghunter79

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2015, 06:53:10 pm »
0

I'd probably go with:

Gardens: Alt VP aids engine, but rush if Ironworks is present.

Seems to capture the essence of the card nicely. There are a handful of really strong interactions between Gardens and another card (Beggar comes to mind), but I think in the majority of kingdoms, Gardens is just standard alt VP. Most Gardens rushes in 2-player lose to halfway decent engines, and without specific combos, they're also nothing special.

Talisman with <4 non-trashing +buy is a pretty fun gardens-rusher.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 10:22:55 pm by dghunter79 »
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Willvon

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #141 on: April 09, 2015, 10:16:41 pm »
0

Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House

Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer
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assemble_me

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2015, 04:44:20 am »
0

Masterpiece: Best Feodum enabler; mediocre to bad otherwise.

Masterpiece: Amazing with Feodum, powerful in slogs, good in big money.
(I strongly disagree that it's mediore to bad if there's no Feodum, it's often better than Gold for 6$ and especially 7+$)


Bridge: Great payload with multiple copies in play. Nice in slogs

Jack of all Trades: Buy two, play money. Defends many attacks. Can support engines.

Chancellor: Cycling is often underestimated by newbies, still a weak card

Minion: Often you just want all, an engine on its own.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:27:02 am by assemble_me »
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Asper

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2015, 06:37:35 am »
+2

Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House

Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer

While Chancellor is my favourite Dominion card, i don't think it's that good with Counting House. That combo just needs a lot of luck, and even if it succeeds, that's just a single Province. If you can set up a CH/C/V hand and buy Provinces reliably, you should be able to get to $8, anyhow..

Hmm... Maybe Prince Chancellor, instead. Or use Golem. Speaking of which, i think that Chancellor works surprisingly well with most Potion cards, considering it reduces the Potion slowdown, you can open Chancellor/Potion, most Potion costs are nonterminal and that you usually want multiples of them (meaning you want get fewer other terminals to collide with Chancellor).
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markusin

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #144 on: April 16, 2015, 09:39:09 am »
+1

Chancellor: Terminal. Silver usually better. Good with village and Counting House

Festival: Buy them for village, coin, buy; but add good drawer

While Chancellor is my favourite Dominion card, i don't think it's that good with Counting House. That combo just needs a lot of luck, and even if it succeeds, that's just a single Province. If you can set up a CH/C/V hand and buy Provinces reliably, you should be able to get to $8, anyhow..

Hmm... Maybe Prince Chancellor, instead. Or use Golem. Speaking of which, i think that Chancellor works surprisingly well with most Potion cards, considering it reduces the Potion slowdown, you can open Chancellor/Potion, most Potion costs are nonterminal and that you usually want multiples of them (meaning you want get fewer other terminals to collide with Chancellor).
Village->Scavenger (topdeck Counting House)->cantrip->Counting House works better.

Also,

Minion: Good self-synergy. Great for playing all your key actions.
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Just a Rube

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #145 on: April 16, 2015, 07:13:35 pm »
0

Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #146 on: April 16, 2015, 07:50:18 pm »
+6

Ambassador: Rarely ignore. Get two. Return two coppers over one estate.

Following up on my previous formula:
Urchin: Rarely ignore. Three Urchins, two Mercenaries. Trash down, build engine.

Cultist: Rarely ignore, except Vineyards. Get lots. Easy on other terminals.

Rebuild: Rarely ignore, unless strong engine. Win Duchy split in mirror.

Hmm...

Cultist: Play Cultist after Cultist after Cultist and Ruin your opponent.

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Marcory

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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #147 on: April 16, 2015, 08:01:11 pm »
+2

Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.

Even better: Buys Gold, Grand Market, Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.
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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #148 on: April 16, 2015, 11:06:37 pm »
+2

Vault: Buys Gold. Gold Buys Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.

Even better: Buys Gold, Grand Market, Province. Likes Tactician, Scrying Pool.

Or, in honor of this video, "vault plus gold equals province.  All you need to know."
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Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« Reply #149 on: April 16, 2015, 11:42:15 pm »
0

Chapel: Every turn I'm shufflin' shufflin', Every turn I'm shufflin' shufflin'
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