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Author Topic: Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density  (Read 21336 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density
« on: March 26, 2015, 09:19:13 am »
+27

Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density

A point that I think a lot of players get to – and I know I certainly did – is to look at the world of Dominion in a Big Money Paradigm. What I’m talking about, in my case at least, is a concept I call “money density”. Basically, a rough measure of quality for a BM deck is something like “take your average coin production per card, multiply that by your average hand-size, and that gives you your average economic capacity per turn.”

This is perhaps a bit simplistic, but it really does give you a rough assessment of the capabilities of a big money deck. I will note that even when you are playing big money, there are lots of imprecisions to modelling things this way: card efficacy doesn’t, in general, scale linearly, unused money has no value, turn-to-turn variations are quite important, ancillary benefits of cards beyond coin-value are real, etc. Even within this Big Money Paradigm, there are lots of nuanced decisions to make.

When you are stuck in this mindset, it can be hard to think of why you would add “do-nothing” cards – a la Village – to your deck. Sure, the cantrip makes it not hurt so much, but it doesn’t actually help your money density, and you are potentially missing out on getting a better card – silver, at least, will do more for you. And in a Big Money deck, the extra action usually doesn’t do a lot for you – if you get to the point you’re needing one very often, you probably should have just bought fewer terminal actions. Or not play Big Money at all.

This is where the Engine Paradigm (or draw-your-deck if you want slightly less pithy but arguably more descriptive names) comes in. If you can get to the point where you are drawing every card in your deck every turn, the way you look at your economic output on a turn changes completely. Now, you don’t need to look at average coin per card; you can actually just add up the sum total of all economic production in your whole deck.

To illustrate this, let’s look at an example of adding a Gold (which is not what you want to do terribly often in engines, but is always available and gets the point across). Adding the gold in a Big Money Paradigm will increase your money density by the difference between $3 and your old average value, divided by the number of cards in your deck. So if you had a starting deck plus five silvers, your old density was 17/15 = 1.133, and you increase by (3-1.133)/16 = 0.117. Multiply that by 5 cards per hand, and you get .583 coin per turn on average. This is pretty good for a Big Money deck. It’s worth noting here that each successive gold will do less though – the next one only adds .103 per card, or .515 per hand. This is because the difference between where you were and the $3 of the Gold continues to shrink, and the impact of each card is less as your deck gets bigger.

If you’re drawing your deck, on the other hand, you simply get to add the full $3 to your ever-turn spending power. The next gold just adds $3 again, too. This is a lot more, and it gets to be a progressively bigger gap over time. So you can see that even treasures can get leveraged more if you are drawing your deck.

Now, there are reasons why it’s not quite so rosy for engines as the above might make it sound. As it relates to the discussion above, the most notable thing is that if you are adding payload cards which don’t help you to draw (like Gold), you will have to get more pieces that do so you can continue to draw your deck every turn (terminal payload also requires getting more villages). This diminishes the ability to really add as much economy as you might otherwise be able to. On the other hand, being able to add to your per-turn payload so quickly self-synergizes, exploding in on itself in a chain reaction – getting that extra $3 now means I have more that I’m able to spend next turn to keep increasing my economic capabilities without falling behind on draw. This ramping effect virtually always more than compensates for the need to get extra pieces to keep drawing, at least if you have the capability to get extra buys – otherwise making $30 on a turn doesn’t do much for me. On top of that, there are ancillary benefits – if there are cards which are much better in combination or in multiples, you get to reliably do that, and you get to hit them with your attacks every turn. Engines also give you better control of ending the game just when you want.

The real downside of engines, which might make you not want to go for one, is that they can be slow to set up. This, along with increasing the reliability of the engine, is why trashing and/or sifting is such a boon to the engine. It’s all about getting to that point where you are drawing your deck as quickly as possible, because once you are there, even if it takes a long time, even if you are forced in to buying victory points in less efficient chunks, the raw power of an engine’s chaining buildup, if one is possible on the board, is usually enough to overcome the potential speed deficit.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 07:18:01 am by WanderingWinder »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 09:53:10 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 09:56:57 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 10:21:40 am »
+9

I think recent discussions about card articles and stuff have signalled a need for more articles on the fundamentals of the game. It's always good to have a place where the benefits of engines are mentioned explicitly.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 10:27:57 am »
+1

Nice article.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 10:29:54 am »
+1

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

I guess in situations where, say, the possibility of a triple Province turn is relevant for end game tactics, you have to know exactly how much money your deck is capable of producing, but isn't it usually enough if you just play your cards and see how much you have every turn?

I think recent discussions about card articles and stuff have signalled a need for more articles on the fundamentals of the game. It's always good to have a place where the benefits of engines are mentioned explicitly.

There certainly is a need for more articles about engines in particular.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 10:31:27 am »
0

You might not draw your deck every turn, though, or you might be still in the building phase.  You would need some estimate of how much money your deck produces, or how much you can expect to get each turn, if you're mapping out your buys.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 10:37:48 am »
+2

When you play, do you keep a count of your money density/total money?
Money density: basically never, but I have a general feel?
Total money: in a draw engine, yeah, because it's the amount of money you are making every given turn - you need to know it to figure out what to buy anyway.

I guess in situations where, say, the possibility of a triple Province turn is relevant for end game tactics, you have to know exactly how much money your deck is capable of producing, but isn't it usually enough if you just play your cards and see how much you have every turn?
Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 10:40:08 am »
+19

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 10:41:53 am »
+3

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?

And, really, Q is strictly better than R. 
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 10:46:57 am »
+1

I think you should prefer Moat over Q

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 10:50:07 am »
+7

I think you should prefer Moat over Q

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 11:54:25 am »
0

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 12:04:02 pm »
0

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
It's in there. Last sentence of the penultimate paragraph.

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 01:04:04 pm »
+3

I would think it's worth mentioning that engine players tend to get more control over when the game ends than big money players, which is also usually worth the extra setup time.
It's in there. Last sentence of the penultimate paragraph.
It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though. You also have you recognize that you've assumed the reader knows what you mean by end game control and it's significance. I think thr power of end game control can use it's own article if it doesn't have a good one already. It's one of those things always talked about in game reports and the help section, but there isn't a common reference point that can be used I don't think.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 01:21:29 pm »
+1

It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though.

Yeah I blinked  :-[

I guess that means I think it should be emphasized more, I guess...
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 02:00:27 pm »
0

This is very well written. Succinct, but thorough. Very useful for players learning how to make decisions tailored toward one kind of deck or the other - particularly a Big Money deck with a fair number of actions, but also the decisions involved with going full engine. Definitely should get on the site if that's still a thing.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 06:10:38 pm »
+4

Well, that's how I know how much I have, but in this kind of deck, I often want to plan my buys turns in advance, so knowing I have 12 now lets me know I need to get X now, so I have 15 next turn to get Y,Z,Q next turn, so I can get B,R,F the turn after.

Going for Q looks really bad here. I mean, why do you even want R?

And, really, Q is strictly better than R.

I disagree.  Q is much tougher to use properly unless you also get a U.  R is much more flexible.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 07:19:55 pm »
0

It's a blink-and-you-miss-it kind of line though.

Yeah I blinked  :-[

I guess that means I think it should be emphasized more, I guess...
Agree, endgame control is one of the biggest things that make engine > BM. Engines play catch up vs. non-engine strategies; if they have control over when the game ends, they can make sure they have enough time to catch up. Similarly they can sneak 3-piles.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 08:33:24 pm »
+2

I always thought we built engines for finger exercise.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 11:05:14 am »
+10

When I started at Dominion, I needed exactly the opposite advice.

We were always building engines on every board. It was somewhat considered "spoiling the game" when you started to green, because then you'd end the fun for everybody.
Nobody ever started to green before you could double province *and* build on at the same time.

We had a very good laugh when Duke came out. Why would you ever buy that? This card only started to make sense when we read Swindler... you were supposed to transform those nice laboratories your opponent had into these overpriced curses.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 11:57:02 am »
+4

We had a very good laugh when Duke came out. Why would you ever buy that?

I really, really hope that feeling about cards repeats in the next weeks. The discovery, that you value cards totally wrong.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2015, 09:48:17 am »
+2

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2015, 10:09:07 am »
+2

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

Sounds like a very fair point, I don't think your article should go into all that. It's fine the way it is.
But then maybe you should look for a more fitting title for your article.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2015, 10:24:03 am »
0

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

Sounds like a very fair point, I don't think your article should go into all that. It's fine the way it is.
But then maybe you should look for a more fitting title for your article.

Seems totally reasonable. Have any suggestions? Anyone?

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2015, 10:40:40 am »
+2

Engine 2: Engine Harder
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2015, 10:44:11 am »
+1

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

Sounds like a very fair point, I don't think your article should go into all that. It's fine the way it is.
But then maybe you should look for a more fitting title for your article.

Seems totally reasonable. Have any suggestions? Anyone?
Yeah the article is fine as it is. It's an overview. Like, "Why Engine? An Overview" isn't good enough. enough? I'd avoid stuff like "Higher Perspective/Level' because it suggests that it's only accessible to higher level players.

Edit: Sorry, I meant to suggest " Why Engine: An Overview".
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 11:30:05 am by markusin »
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2015, 11:11:08 am »
+2

Engine 2: Engine Harder

Yeah the article is fine as it is. It's an overview. Like, "Why Engine? An Overview" isn't good enough. I'd avoid stuff like "Higher Perspective/Level' because it suggests that it's only accessible to higher level players.

I don't think this is trying to be an 'advanced article' on engines at all. It's trying to correct a dead path you might be on in analyzing the game of Dominion. If you're stuck on it you can probably still make it to level 30, maybe 35 in the past, but that should be the ceiling for people refusing engines on all but the obvious boards.

My suggestion would be "The myth called Money Density".
Or if you don't like vague titles maybe something like "The limitations of Money Density" or something alike.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2015, 03:33:59 pm »
+7

Indeed, the article avoids a limited BMish view on dominion. That's good. However, I am not able to get anything else out of it. And looking at 19+ respects, I kinda wonder: If the article wasn't written by WanderingWinder, but, say, werothegreat, would it get the same appreciation?
Assuming the latter, an elite dominion player might have remarked that the article is way too long, and could be replaced by ten words:

"Big Money needs money density. Deck-drawing engines grow exponentially."

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2015, 03:48:06 pm »
+2

Indeed, the article avoids a limited BMish view on dominion. That's good. However, I am not able to get anything else out of it. And looking at 19+ respects, I kinda wonder: If the article wasn't written by WanderingWinder, but, say, werothegreat, would it get the same appreciation?
Assuming the latter, an elite dominion player might have remarked that the article is way too long, and could be replaced by ten words:

"Big Money needs money density. Deck-drawing engines grow exponentially."

I agree there is respect inflation for posts by Dominion "celebrities" (lol). But I'd point out that while articles by elite players are often tautological and not terribly useful unless you already understand the point, werothegreat's articles are often just plain wrong.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2015, 04:04:49 pm »
+1

Indeed, the article avoids a limited BMish view on dominion. That's good. However, I am not able to get anything else out of it. And looking at 19+ respects, I kinda wonder: If the article wasn't written by WanderingWinder, but, say, werothegreat, would it get the same appreciation?
Assuming the latter, an elite dominion player might have remarked that the article is way too long, and could be replaced by ten words:

"Big Money needs money density. Deck-drawing engines grow exponentially."

Well, I don't really agree that the article doesn't have a lot of content because it does, but it's definitely a thing that super high-level players get more respect for good advice than others. It's a bit funny when, say, Stef posts that he agrees with someone and gets more respect for it than the original post.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2015, 06:00:30 pm »
+7

It's a bit funny when, say, Stef posts that he agrees with someone and gets more respect for it than the original post.

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2015, 06:05:19 pm »
+30

It's a bit funny when, say, Stef posts that he agrees with someone and gets more respect for it than the original post.

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.
I agree. Well put!
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2015, 06:09:49 pm »
+1

It's a bit funny when, say, Stef posts that he agrees with someone and gets more respect for it than the original post.

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.
I agree. Well put!

Now, despite making me laugh, I will refrain from +1-ing this to make a point.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2015, 06:39:02 pm »
+1

It's a bit funny when, say, Stef posts that he agrees with someone and gets more respect for it than the original post.

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.

That is true, but the doctor generally doesn't have to be one of the top ten doctors in the world for his word to be valuable enough that I can trust it. Sure, if two or more semi-high level players disagree about something, then it's probably a very difficult decision and the opinion of a better player is extremely useful, but that's not always the case. EDIT: I mean, of course it's still useful if Stef just chimes in to agree with the general consensus, but to a lesser extent.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 06:46:13 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2015, 06:39:25 pm »
+9

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.

This sounds nice, but I am pretty sure the main effect is just from name recognition (and not an actual informed evaluation of authority based on player skill). I have certainly had posts where the Stef "I agree" post got more +1s than mine. There's not a large enough skill gap there to doubt my post but believe his. But everyone knows "Stef is the best" (which is true).

I now want to end this post in a way that doesn't make me seem bitter, as a I think the phenomenon is entertaining, not upsetting. So imagine I wrote whatever thing allows you to believe me.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2015, 06:52:45 pm »
+1

That shouldn't be surprising. When you experience some symptoms, read stuff on Wikipedia, make some vague conjecture about your condition and then visit your doctor who confirms it, your doctor's statement is far more valuable to you than the wikipedia article and your own guesswork.

Similarly, when Unknown Player X says something and Unknown Player Y argues the opposite, the entire argument would be pretty meaningless to a mediocre player who's unable to judge who's correct. Now, if Stef chimes in saying "I agree with every word of Player X, very well expressed!", that statement would be tremendously valuable.

The value isn't in the words themselves but in them being a destillation of high-level experience.

I have on several occasions recanted my original position and personally acknowledged SCSN's great wisdom on this particular subject.

It's ok Mic.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2015, 06:53:20 pm »
+2

1. I believe that the best player in the world changes with time. Over the past several months I believe that the only two people who have held that title are stef and MQ. I also believe that MQ has had more days with that distinction than stef, though it's close. Of course that's all subjective.

2. I love how we're arguing over which posts deserve more respect when dominion posts don't get nearly as much respect as other types of posts around here. I have a rant about this that I want to make but I'll probably just do it on stream at some point. I'm on vacation right now :P
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2015, 07:19:52 pm »
0

2. I love how we're arguing over which posts deserve more respect when dominion posts don't get nearly as much respect as other types of posts around here. I have a rant about this that I want to make but I'll probably just do it on stream at some point. I'm on vacation right now :P

I don't really care about the respect points, people get +1s for ridiculous reasons and I'm a prime example of that myself. But I think that there are a lot of players who would deserve much more actual respect than they're getting, mainly from the lower level people.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2015, 10:06:08 pm »
0

As much as I love Mic's streams and videos, I'd be extremely surprised if there ever was a point in time when he was a favorite over Stef in a random game. Does anyone have their overall record?

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2015, 11:54:58 pm »
0

As much as I love Mic's streams and videos, I'd be extremely surprised if there ever was a point in time when he was a favorite over Stef in a random game. Does anyone have their overall record?

ITT gossip and speculation about dominion end bosses runs rampant.

I don't really think that's what anyone was talking about... Well Adam was but I'm not really sure where that came from. Since you've asked this question though I will tell you what I know: in the isotropic era our head to head record was overwhelmingly in Stef's favor, something like 66% for him. Oh and amalloy wrote a tool a while back that let's you look this stuff up:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11112.0

According to it I've improved from 33% up to 44% in Goko times. Woohoo.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2015, 08:22:33 pm »
+6

How about "Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density"?

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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2015, 08:51:23 pm »
+3

How about "Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density"?

Who are you, Adam Smith?  Sorry, guess I like fluffy titles and things.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2015, 10:47:07 pm »
+1

I'm new to the forums and haven't given out a lot of plus ones, but I generally read them on my phone and don't have a lot of screen space. To maximize my viewing, I don't look at the names of posters.  However, when I read a post that I find especially right on or especially questionable I often scroll over and see who wrote it.

A LOT of the times the deep, "right" comments (in my opinion at least) come from wanderingw, MicQ, and Stef.

Never has it been one of those guys when I've looked because the information posted just seemed wrong.

So, yes I am sure there is some celebrity respect, but I would argue that is a reasonable thing; most of it is a result of quality opinion, which I'm sure carries over into the mundane. If I read person A say "X is correct" and I've seen that in cases where I have been able to evaluate, I've come to appreciate that person A is usually correct, then I will certainly have more respect for that statement than random person B saying the exact same thing.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2015, 11:03:59 pm »
+2

How about "Engine Economies and the Limitations of Money Density"?

I prefer "Beyond Silver."
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2015, 12:35:57 am »
+3

I love how we're arguing over which posts deserve more respect when dominion posts don't get nearly as much respect as other types of posts around here. I have a rant about this that I want to make but I'll probably just do it on stream at some point. I'm on vacation right now :P
Upvote-based systems generally reward not just quality, but also fast consumption and easy judgment. It only takes a few seconds to read a humor post, chuckle, and upvote it. It takes several minutes to read an article, and after you read it, you might not even know whether you agree with it.

That's why reddit gets flooded with jokes, images, and short videos. Respect here has the same problem but it doesn't change the visibility of posts, so it doesn't really hurt anything.

I think it should be possible to create internet rating systems that express a more fine-grained evaluation than "like" and "didn't express an opinion", but I haven't seen a good one yet, probably because it's a hard problem.
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Re: Why Engine?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2015, 08:01:05 am »
+1

So several people have brought up that pile control isn't very much explored here. They're right, of course, but I'm a bit puzzled - there are plenty of other reasons why you would want to go for an engine that I didn't really get into - I really wanted to focus on the differences in the economic paradigms here. If I wanted to really go in-depth on why you want to play an engine, I would need to elaborate on many points I gloss over above - the importance of access to extra gains, the ability to slow them down by attacking them often, etc.

As for pile control itself... when making the decision whether to go for an engine or not, having pile control is nice, but it's not usually a significant factor in deciding. The way that pile control really comes in for non-mirrors is when you end up buying Victory cards other than what the opponent is going for (most commonly, this means diving for lots of duchies when there are a couple of provinces left). I address this in the article, when I talk about buying less efficient sources of points (duchies are with .6 VP per coin, provinces are .75). I'm not even sure this is pile control, though I suppose it's definitely endgame control, which is the same concept, really.

But where pile control starts being enormously important is in engine mirrors.

I'd like to jump in here again.

How about generating a whole sequence about engines?
Then we can do something like a mindmap about engines. Economy is one part of it. End game control is another one. Attacks might be a third one. Matchups like engine vs. slog could be other articles and so on.
In the end we could have a general engine srticle that points out strengths and limitations of engines in a general way. I't wouldn't need to go into all the details because we had seperate articles linked to that general one where those details are being explained.
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