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Author Topic: How to approach this kingdom  (Read 4458 times)

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theJester

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How to approach this kingdom
« on: March 26, 2015, 06:14:41 am »
+3

I played this interesting kingdom today (Shelters/Provinces):



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Develop, Swindler, Tunnel, Nomad Camp, Band of Misfits, Bazaar, Explorer, Tactician, Vault
I started pretty cluelessly, and only during the course of the game began noticing various (and numerous) interesting card interactions. So, how would you approach this board (on 4/3 opening):

1) Swindler + BM, maybe later transposing into Vault+BM
2) Vault + BM from the start, or Vault + FG
3) Nomad Camp + FG, with Tactician later
4) Double Tactician with Vault
5) anything else I'm missing?

Actual game may not be most interesting, since both myself and my opponent missed many stuff, but if anyone's interested in log: here it is.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150326/log.515c0c7ce4b093d38b19b125.1427363472231.txt
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Heisenberg

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 06:24:00 am »
+2

I would go vault double tactician here.  Swindler really hurts fool's gold.  I would open swindler silver.
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DG

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 09:14:12 am »
+2

I'd go for swindler/swindler into some tactician or vault thing but the simulator suggests nomad camp with fool's gold is competitive, even without considering shelters.
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Dingan

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 09:55:00 am »
+2

Swindler (and Band of Misfits when Swindler is in the supply) can make any game screwy.  I admit I often get lost in Swindler kingdoms because I fear that my opponent will turn all my $5's into Duchies and what not.  Here, I would snag up Fool's Golds with the help of Nomad Camp early, simply because uncontested Fool's Gold is devastating.  I'd take the risk of opponent turning them into Estates or whatever.  Probably open Swindler/NC on $3/$4, but NC/FG+FG on $4/$3.
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Polk5440

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 03:19:40 pm »
+1

My instinct is to open Nomad Camp into Fool's Gold and go for them all. In the face of Swindler attacks, I would plan on transitioning as the game goes on; Swindlers of my own, Bazaars, Tactician, Vault.

I like the idea of going Fool's Gold first because it allows spiking some Provinces and getting a lead. Hopefully those Provinces get hit by others' Swindlers bringing the game to a quicker end.

With no mid-late game transition plan, I can't see Nomad Camp/Fool's Gold/money winning against Swindler heavy stuff.
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ehunt

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 11:15:18 am »
+2

Vault tunnel?
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theblankman

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 01:46:37 pm »
+1

Vault tunnel?
Eh, maybe but I doubt it.  There's pretty good support for double-tac here, the opponent can start picking up Bazaars and more Swindlers and kinda ruin your day.  The only thing that makes me hesitant about double-tac is the weak trashing (do you even bother with Develop?) and not-so-great draw. 
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Dingan

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2015, 01:58:09 pm »
0

Vault tunnel?
Eh, maybe but I doubt it.  There's pretty good support for double-tac here, the opponent can start picking up Bazaars and more Swindlers and kinda ruin your day.  The only thing that makes me hesitant about double-tac is the weak trashing (do you even bother with Develop?) and not-so-great draw.

I think the debate so far has been double-tac vs. Fools Gold rush.  Double-tac is tempting because of the good support (Bazaar), economy (Vault), and attackiness (Swindler/BoM).  But I wonder if you went for that while your opponent is rushing the FGs, they might be able to pile-drive the provinces.  Because uncontested Fool's Gold is like, the bee's knees.  By the time you are up to double-tac and are hitting them with multiple Swindlers per turn, they might already have the Province split.  Plus Swindling a Province would make the game end that much quicker.

But I don't really know.  It would be cool to see 2 people play 5 games of this, where they each take one of the sides.

EDIT: and I think Vault/Tunnel is too slow, and therefore vulnerable to double-tac + Swindlers.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 02:00:23 pm by Dingan »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2015, 02:48:50 pm »
+2

Vault tunnel?
Eh, maybe but I doubt it.  There's pretty good support for double-tac here, the opponent can start picking up Bazaars and more Swindlers and kinda ruin your day.  The only thing that makes me hesitant about double-tac is the weak trashing (do you even bother with Develop?) and not-so-great draw. 

I really disagree with this. Vault/Tunnel is very resilient to Swindler (in relative terms) - hitting the actual card Vault hurts it a lot, the rest, much less than in most any deck. Of course, Swindler is a pretty good card in general anyway. But beyond this, Double Tac doesn't have very good support at all - you absolutely would need to go Develop, because there's just no draw beyond Tactician, which means you're limited to 10 card hands. 10 is a lot, but you are adding at least a couple swindlers and your two tacticians, and eventually green cards (I am not counting Bazaars since you get to flip them into another card). You will have 4 or more non-drawing cards you want to add very easily - and that means missing playing the 2nd tactician 30% of the time already. Your deck isn't reliable. Even with Develop, it's going to be slow in getting to reliability. Furthermore, what's the payoff? I play 4 bazaars and 2 swindlers to get $8? It seems like a lot of work for not so much upside.

Vault is a premier BM enabler (in the absence of discard attacks, which really hurt it), and Tunnel helps... some. I don't actually think it helps a ton, but hey, it's something.

There's other options here though. FG/BM is also quite nice - with Nomad Camp, this probably takes out Vault/Tunnel in a BM mirror? Unless that contests FG? I don't know, it's very tricky. I imagine how the game plays out is probably actually more important than 'strategy'. I would probably go Swindler/Silver, getting more Swindlers if they go FG, and otherwise/generally focusing on Vault.

theblankman

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2015, 03:00:01 pm »
+2

+2 cards on Vault isn't enough draw?  I agree that if there was +3 or more card smithy variant that would be a lot better, but Vault can still increase hand size.  Maybe Vault is good enough if the trashing were better? 

Another consideration here is what about single tac with Fool's Gold (and probably a Vault or two thrown in)?  You can get a lot of FG value on a tac turn.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2015, 03:12:51 pm »
+2

+2 cards on Vault isn't enough draw?  I agree that if there was +3 or more card smithy variant that would be a lot better, but Vault can still increase hand size.  Maybe Vault is good enough if the trashing were better? 

Another consideration here is what about single tac with Fool's Gold (and probably a Vault or two thrown in)?  You can get a lot of FG value on a tac turn.

It helps, some. But now all the cards you really want cost 5. How do I have time for Bazaars and two Tacs and Vaults and Swindlers? And really, you still want Develop. I dunno, it's not crazy, but I am a bit doubtful. I know I was on Vault/Tac combo as very nice a few years ago, but actually after studying it more, I don't think it's much, if any, better than straight Vault/BM. And I think Tunnel helps a lil more than what you are getting here? I could be wrong. For sure if the trashing were stronger I would be way higher on Double Tac.

Single Tac with FG is possible, as is some kind of Vault/Tac/Tunnel hybrid, I just think they're probably a little bit worse? Again, this board is tricky though, I am not sure.

luser

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Re: How to approach this kingdom
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 05:15:44 pm »
0

As tunnel-double tactician is already thing I would try it. Use mandatory swindler-swindler opening, then add 2 tacticians, 2-3 tunnels and vault.
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